Making sciencing more challenging

[Algiark]

So first of all, I really like the 0.22 update, played it for a few days and have already maxed out the tech tree. It's not exactly in 2 missions like Scott Manley claimed would be possible, but I still feel that maxing the tech tree is too easy and quick. Of course, the career mode isn't complete yet so I'm wondering how future updates will make maxing the tech tree more challenging? Adding more science requirements to unlock a node is an obvious way, but I'm thinking something along the lines of budget, life support, and the need to send more than one kerbal on a long mission (because what's the point of sending a 3 kerbal mission to Duna to gather samples if one kerbal can do it just fine?)

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this.

[Scotius]

Training and specialisations for Kerbals . Pilot is flying the ship, Engineer is keeping it flying despite Pilot's shenanigans. And Scientist handles all things science-y And their skills grow with time and number of performed tasks. And there should be checkpoints along the way. F.E: Green pilot can fly only orbital missions. A bit more experienced can handle all missions in Kerbin's SoI. More experience, and he can go to Duna and Eve. And so on. You would need an experienced Engineer to handle Mainsails and Ion engines - and a grizzled veteran to properly operate NERVA's. Same goes for science stuff: A Scientist first time in space can snap a photo through the window and exclaim "Boy, Kerbin really is round!" More experienced can handle samples etc. Sure, in a pinch you can send green crew even to Jool - but their performance will be less than stellar.

[KerbMav]

Setting an appropriate maximum of science points to be gained by transmitting, different percentages for samples, EVAs, experiments etc. - so you only learn everything there is to learn if you bring back a fresh sample for the scientists back home, let them examine first hand the remnants of an experiment or the equipment you used in the survey to assess if and how the alien environment influenced the readings.

Not talking about the efficiency numbers for antennas, but the maximum fraction of the pool by not returning the data and stuff.

To through around some numbers: Maximum science to be gained by transmitting alone:

crew reports 100%

EVAs 80%

experiments 60%

surface samples 40%

[Zutha]

I found myself spamming constantly for science stuff. I'd prefer if you can only do (or receive science) once for a specific thing. I think it would also be better to give a flat rate science for each task rather than transmission %.

The exception to this is samples which you have to deliver back for science points.

I found myself spamming constantly to try and get the maximum science from doing stuff.

A check list would also be great in game (not achievements per say):

e.g.

Mun high Orbit

Mun Low Orbit

Mun Surface

As spamming at different intervals became tedious.

This "note book" could also be used to store the data you collect (gravity/pressure etc) on orbital bodies.

Additionally I found no reason to keep kerbal's on orbital bodies (except for my own amusement). So I landed, took samples and left.

It would be good to keep a base on a body to constantly monitor (over time) and gain science this way. Once completed you would be notified. These times can vary depending on the body and the biome you are at. Would also give a reason to land multiple times at a location as you may need to move around.

I definately enjoyed the career aspect, it can be seen as easy if you've played a long time and have already been to multiple locations. But it's a great way to get new players into the game. The reason for this is even though i've played since 0.14 (ish). Having taken a break between 0.19 and 0.22 I was a little overwhelmed by the amount of new parts and additions. So it was a good stage introduction.

Finally I don't think the difficulty of the career mode will be science related, but more funding/cash related at a later stage. It's easy to get to places if you have unlimited resource... but try doing it on a budget where every bit of fuel wasted cost you money will be difficult. Unfortunately having a way of estimating if you can do something will almost be essential to stop you waste the cash and "not quite getting there."

Edited October 21, 2013 by Zutha

[Tommygun]

I think once money is added to career mode it will help make it more challenging.

I'd like to see the transmitted science toned down and the manned EVA given much more points especially sample returns.

I was also surprised that there are no missions in career mode, at least so far.

It would be nice to have specific places to go for bonus science points. There should still be freedom to go to the places you want, but extra mission scenarios to anomalies or odd science readings would be great.

[billw]

Progress in the original space race was gained by studying and testing the equipment itself, not so much performing "experiments", so I would like to see you earn points for achieving maneuvers. e.g. docking, landing, orbiting, transfers, sling shots (is this possible in KSP?) etc. Also you should start with plane components not rocket components, first flights should be high altitude in planes.

And like already mentioned the main difficulty is going to be when you actually have a budget!

[SRV Ron]

I could see Career eventually starting out with probes before committing to manned missions. Returning probes for recovery should be worth much more science points then just launch and forget. Crew experience for more advanced missions sounds like a good idea which would force the player to ensure their safe return. Increase in funding to allow the building of larger more efficient rockets could be based upon mission success. Eventually, there would be the goal of orbiting space stations that need regular resupply and crew rotations for generating extra revenue so that off world bases can be established for even greater return in science points and funding. Naturally, mining of resources, Ketane and building materials, should become a part of the effort to build and maintain off world bases.

What we have now is a good start that will be expanded upon as the game matures.

[Wallace]

One way to balance it out would be to have it so repeat experiments don't work for the same mission. So, eg, put a probe in LKO, transmit a goo experiment, then that goo box is done for that location, it won't give anything till you move it somewhere else. Launch a second goo probe to LKO and that can do another goo experiment in LKO. Then you could say have a bigger laboratory part that needs to be manned and powered that can transmit repeatedly from the same place, so that would make it so space stations have an advantage over unmanned probes other than just crew reports, and an advantage over just sending the tiniest capsule possible.

[KerbMav]

Progress in the original space race was gained by studying and testing the equipment itself, not so much performing "experiments", so I would like to see you earn points for achieving maneuvers. e.g. docking, landing, orbiting, transfers, sling shots (is this possible in KSP?) etc. Also you should start with plane components not rocket components, first flights should be high altitude in planes.

And like already mentioned the main difficulty is going to be when you actually have a budget!

1. You are testing the equipment by going places.

2. Maybe it is a bit different.

I imagine that science is another way of gaining funding / to create incentives in the space flight industry of Kerbin.

If your missions produce scientific results, the space program gains more funding it can put into developing new parts / the industry sees profit in investing in the development of new parts yours agency will then buy from them.

[congoblast]

I found myself spamming constantly for science stuff. I'd prefer if you can only do (or receive science) once for a specific thing. I think it would also be better to give a flat rate science for each task rather than transmission %.

The exception to this is samples which you have to deliver back for science points.

I found myself spamming constantly to try and get the maximum science from doing stuff.

A check list would also be great in game (not achievements per say):

e.g.

Mun high Orbit

Mun Low Orbit

Mun Surface

As spamming at different intervals became tedious.

This "note book" could also be used to store the data you collect (gravity/pressure etc) on orbital bodies.

Additionally I found no reason to keep kerbal's on orbital bodies (except for my own amusement). So I landed, took samples and left.

It would be good to keep a base on a body to constantly monitor (over time) and gain science this way. Once completed you would be notified. These times can vary depending on the body and the biome you are at. Would also give a reason to land multiple times at a location as you may need to move around.

I definately enjoyed the career aspect, it can be seen as easy if you've played a long time and have already been to multiple locations. But it's a great way to get new players into the game. The reason for this is even though i've played since 0.14 (ish). Having taken a break between 0.19 and 0.22 I was a little overwhelmed by the amount of new parts and additions. So it was a good stage introduction.

Finally I don't think the difficulty of the career mode will be science related, but more funding/cash related at a later stage. It's easy to get to places if you have unlimited resource... but try doing it on a budget where every bit of fuel wasted cost you money will be difficult. Unfortunately having a way of estimating if you can do something will almost be essential to stop you waste the cash and "not quite getting there."

I have done the exact some thing. I don't know if it is a bug, but yeah the button should be grayed out of you already have done a transmission of a specific experiment, in the same spot.

[gateFriday]

-snip-

I fully agree. Also the font headline for science being reviewed should be more visible. I'm ashamed to admit it but it took me close to three hours before I spotted the name above the report ("EVA report in orbit above Kerbin Grasslands" and so on). The font in the notes is bigger than the one in the headline, for goodness sake!

But I really do like this update!

[Flock of Panthers]

Now, I actually like that the repeated transmissions take time and energy to perform and transmit. For the interplanetary probe I sent to tour Jool and it's moons, it made it quite difficult to manage my high/low orbit scans during short windows of time (not enough dV to circularise anywhere, just gravity assisting around the system) and needing to make sure I was on the light side of every body to do them. It would have felt grindy if it wasn't so tense.

But that was a probe with just thermometer, gravity and barometer (for the, ahem, 'landing' on Jool). All sensors that just need to transmit their readings.

What I'd like to change is to basically not get the ability to transmit Goo, Science Jr or Surface Samples. If those three needed to be returned to be worth a damn, I'd find planning return trips a lot more rewarding.

Just my opinion, but I think making that tweak would give probes a niche (don't have the tech/patience for a return trip? easier ((lighter)) to send a probe than a manned ship), and give you good reasons to make return trips.

That's the low maintenance mod that I think could be made with just a few lines of code removed (hopefully just cutting off the ability for certain parts to transmit).

My more advanced fantasy is to make the Science Jr part heavier (so most small landers couldnt have multiples), and then have a Hitchhikercan-like part that can store experiments. Basically so that it becomes more appealing to plan an Apollo style mission where my landers actually detatch from the orbiter, land on the surface, then return to the orbiter.

On Mun, with it's half dozen biomes, this could mean landing the same orbiter in multiple craters during the same mission.

Last thought: Oh! Maybe the larger command pods can carry more samples? Just to have a reason to use them. I did all the time in .21, but I've never used anything heavier than the mk1 in career mode.

[Jerjare]

I was thinking one aspect of balance would be to make the transmit times much longer and even more power-intensive. They could also integrate data storage modules so you could gather up a lot of science, store it, and return it home vs spamming it via some UHF frequency.

Bigger antennas could have faster transmit times, and be balanced like engines (weaker versions that are more efficient, stronger/faster versions that are resource hogs).

[MR4Y]

More challenging than it already is? Consider that it's not challenging because of gaming difficulty, but because you're given no info on how to use it.

[Flock of Panthers]

I was thinking one aspect of balance would be to make the transmit times much longer and even more power-intensive. They could also integrate data storage modules so you could gather up a lot of science, store it, and return it home vs spamming it via some UHF frequency.

Bigger antennas could have faster transmit times, and be balanced like engines (weaker versions that are more efficient, stronger/faster versions that are resource hogs).

Re: bigger antenna

I thought that that was basically what it currently does. The only difference is that the larger ones transmit the same data/science quicker, with heavier energy costs?

[dudester28]

First of all, the game will probably get harder once currency is added.

Second, I think that squad will be able to add difficulty levels (altering the amount of science rewarded) after the game is released.