Steam Workshop

[Yilmas]

Just a quick and curious question.

Have there been any official notions about implementing Steam Workshop?

Not so much about the usability of an actual SDK, but more about mod management and the ease of access to updates to said mods.

[DYJ]

The official line is that it won't happen, KSP is not exclusive on steam so it wouldn't make too much sense.

[Yilmas]

Well, if that's not going to happen, then I'm looking forward for an overhaul of the spaceport.

Ie. Legacy/Legend downloads. And perhaps a more clear design, less frontpage templates, more Kerbals or spacy looking design..

And finally, on the long run, an actual mod updater of some sort...

I'm well aware of the limited time/workforce that squad have to put into said site, however I'm more surprised that Squad decided to make there own Mod Database, when in most other games, it is usually left open to the Community to make one. And by doing that, the developers wont get stressed out by yet another side of the project.

[UbioZur]

Rob (N3X15), have been working a fair bit on redesigning spaceport. You can follow the progress every week with the weekly update.

[KhaosCorp]

Spaceport is a wreck..and kinda sad how Squad ignores all spaceport issue at this time...just saying 'new one is being made'....well guess what fellas, making a new website DOES NOT FIX THE CURRENT ONE...nor the issues your playerbase has with it.

@Yilmas: Mods are easy as can be to install/uninstall since 0.20 dropped, my guess is (like I was) your sick of having to navigate into the steam folder to make changes?? Easy fix for that, make a copy of the KSP install onto your desktop. Keep your steam install mod free, as a backup. I actually keep 3 installs of KSP...One in steam folder that stays stock, and 2 on my desktop, one for playing the game, one for testing/developing new parts or testing mods im unsure of.

[Panzerbeard]

Yeah, Steam Workshop would be a convenient way of sharing .crafts and mods, but the issue is that people would start using it exclusively, meaning stuff might not be available to non-steam players. I'm hoping that by release they've got some sort of sharing system for .crafts integrated into the game itself, and the Spaceport is no longer terrible.

[KhaosCorp]

Yeah, Steam Workshop would be a convenient way of sharing .crafts and mods, but the issue is that people would start using it exclusively, meaning stuff might not be available to non-steam players. I'm hoping that by release they've got some sort of sharing system for .crafts integrated into the game itself, and the Spaceport is no longer terrible.

There is also no moderation on Steam Workshop...not like there is here at least. I will commend Squad on there Mod posting rules...if more modder games used like rules Id probably play more.

Making devs post source code is really a much bigger security feature than people think....anyone who played GuildWars in its hayday will know just what Im talking about...figgin virus city..and not just in some mods...on mod d/l sites too....Spaceport(despite how crappy it is) and source rules really REALLY cut down on that.

In fact I have yet to get even the smallest virus from ANYTHING ksp related...and I use as much mods as the program will let me.

If this was a Steam only game I could see this happening, but as is I think it would actually be detramental to the KSP community as a whole.

[Yilmas]

Spaceport is a wreck..and kinda sad how Squad ignores all spaceport issue at this time...just saying 'new one is being made'....well guess what fellas, making a new website DOES NOT FIX THE CURRENT ONE...nor the issues your playerbase has with it.

As an Interactive Developer with more than a decade of work experience, I fully understand the dilemma that Squad faces, which again leads me to think, that it was/is a mistake that they themselves decided to host there own mod database.

It is true, that a new website dosn't fix the current one, however from my understanding there is only 1 guy on the website development component, and it is in my believe better for him to focus on a new website, rather than fixing the old one. Nobody likes the job of maintaining old code, nor is it an easy job when you look at the rather unintelligible search function.

Mods are easy as can be to install/uninstall since 0.20 dropped, my guess is (like I was) your sick of having to navigate into the steam folder to make changes?? Easy fix for that, make a copy of the KSP install onto your desktop.

It may be easy for you, me and the IT experienced players of this community. However, I dont know if you've noticed the amount of players that dosn't have that much computer experience on the forums. So many people asking different questions, that you may be doing a /facepalm over. Are we as a community just to forget about them. Sometimes, it feels like Squad has, however as someone else mentioned as well in a different thread, using mods is at the users own discretion and therefor Squad doesn't hold any responsibilities nor obligations.

I may not have played this game for the many years that a lot of the players have on this forum. However, during the last 2-3 months that I have played it. I've grown to find it very much enjoyable, and would at any time recommend it to others. So why shouldn't I want to improve said game, if I believed I had something to contribute to it.

If I had been on this forum for the last many years, I might have been able to gain the recognition that it would require to make a new and community hosted mod database. I atleast know I have the skills. But what can one do with skills alone.

So instead I must try to contribute to the problem at hand, with what ever I have.

Most of this might seem like it is what most people are thinking, however I haven't seen much talk about it.

So with the little recognition I have, I would like to ask the community, what do you feel WE can do to help the situation?

Besides whining, which accomplishes nothing...

[KhaosCorp]

Their 'dilemma' does not justify ignoring all the request for supports....

(myself and many other players have been locked out of spaceport account since 0.20 droped...and all we are told is 'new spaceport is being worked on'.....still havent been able to login in several months...)

If I treated even a small % of my customers like that I would be out of buissness, broke, and homeless.....just saying...this is NOT the proper way to do customer support, regardless of circumstance.

You should also read the 'Addon Posting' rules thread, as some of the things your suggesting are technically against squads rules. FYI, there used to be a 3rd party add-on site..it got shut down...

3rd party sites become a security issue, as stated in my last post. Seems like your making suggestions based on what would fit you best, not the community overall.

3rd party site = more bunk downloads = more a-holes putting viruses in mods = the degredation of the KSP modding community....

Dont belive that? go look at any number of previous 'modders games' that have failed and been shut down due to just this thing...

Also you should learn the difference between whining and stating an opinion that's based on valid concerns before you offend someone.....

[Yilmas]

You should also read the 'Addon Posting' rules thread, as some of the things your suggesting are technically against squads rules. FYI, there used to be a 3rd party add-on site..it got shut down...

3rd party sites become a security issue, as stated in my last post. Seems like your making suggestions based on what would fit you best, not the community overall.

3rd party site = more bunk downloads = more a-holes putting viruses in mods = the degredation of the KSP modding community....

Dont belive that? go look at any number of previous 'modders games' that have failed and been shut down due to just this thing...

Also you should learn the difference between whining and stating an opinion that's based on valid concerns before you offend someone.....

First off, I would like to say, that I am sorry if anything I said offended you, or anyone else for that matter. I simply read your post as whine because of the unnececary use of capitals and the overall quickness of the post. For that I am sorry.

Could you, if you have time, find me that thread "Addon Posting". It seems to be deluding me. A search only resulted in this thread as top result. And any rules I could find were the regular Forum Rules, which from my understanding doesn't even come close to disallowing such suggestions that I made.

Whether or not a 3rd party mod database equals bad mods, is very much debatable, as an example. Look at curse. Sure they are a big company now, but thats not how it began.

There are so many ways to combat illegitimate addons(malware and the like), that I cant really agree with simply banning them.

One of which, is proberbly the most used, the community/moderator approval system, where a mod wont see the daylight of regular players, until it has been approved by both a moderator and the community.

[KhaosCorp]

A mod approved method would be the way to go once a full release is done, however I see massive problems with that now, based on how oftern KSP, and therefore mods, get updated.

Curse was kinda a bad example, while they are a great mod depository for many games now, back in the early days it was not so good...I did actually get a virus from there...granted I think it was actually within the first year the site was active...probably unheard of now.

Yes, there are plenty of way to combat people uploading bad addons, but it all depends on the person (people) running that site to enforce it. With a 3rd party site there is no way to confirm it, and certainly no way for Squad to get in on it....I think this was the basic idea behind SpacePort.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/33079-Addon-posting-rules-May-31-2013

not sure why, but the search feature seems to hate sticky threads

This + KSP ToS...there is a fairbit of handwaving to some of it...esp the stuff in ToS about mods n such

Kinda an after thought, but how hard would it be to automate the 'mod approved posting' type addon site? I know practicaly nothing about coding, but my antivirus automates keeping my computer clean. Maybe its possible to imbed the same kinda process into the posting feature of a website??

Edited October 21, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[Yilmas]

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/33079-Addon-posting-rules-May-31-2013

not sure why, but the search feature seems to hate sticky threads

This + KSP ToS...there is a fairbit of handwaving to some of it...esp the stuff in ToS about mods n such

I must be missing something here. Because neither the "Addon posting rules" thread, ToS nor the EULA disallows 3rd party mod database's. All the information I've been able to find, concerns the use of License files, and respect of it regarding how a user may use the mod in question.

Perhaps DYJ(or another moderator) can give a final word on this ? Because the documentation I've been led to believe should contain it, does not seem to do so.

A mod approved method would be the way to go once a full release is done, however I see massive problems with that now, based on how oftern KSP, and therefore mods, get updated.

Curse was kinda a bad example, while they are a great mod depository for many games now, back in the early days it was not so good...I did actually get a virus from there...granted I think it was actually within the first year the site was active...probably unheard of now.

Yes, there are plenty of way to combat people uploading bad addons, but it all depends on the person (people) running that site to enforce it. With a 3rd party site there is no way to confirm it, and certainly no way for Squad to get in on it....I think this was the basic idea behind SpacePort.

Whether or not Curse is a bad example or not, all comes back to the user looking at it. So lets just keep it at that.

Well, to be technical, if a user experience virus issues from a mod downloaded through a 3rd party site. It can never be Squads fault.

And in the end, if the users of such a mod database, feels that all the site is giving them is bad addons, surely, the users will leave said site. Which inevitably would lead to the site being closed. As you have mentioned in an earlier post.

However, I stand by my opinion that that should be the challenge of the community, rather than Squad, which clearly have plenty of other things to do.

And then, as time progresses, we might see squad creating an actual SDK, which would bring control back to Squad, when they feel they have the time and money to focus on it.

[KhaosCorp]

And in the end, if the users of such a mod database, feels that all the site is giving them is bad addons, surely, the users will leave said site. Which inevitably would lead to the site being closed.

I think ya just hit the nail on the head behind the idea of SpacePort. It eleminates (or is supposed to) that whole 'where to get my mods from' process for the player.

As for the 3rd party site I mentioned that was closed a moderator jumping in on that would be awesome, as I came along after the fact, and am going on heresay. But from what I gather it was closed due to some violations.....not sure if that denotes license violations, or something squad put into play...but either way it presents a (possibly recurring) issues.

Persoanly Im all for a 3rd party site, if these several issue can be addressed in a fashion that allows the modding community to operate basicaly as it does now.....Better the Squad devs be working on the game imo then spaceport.

Leads me back to previous point...how much of these much needed security features can be automated if indeed 3rd part sites are indeed ok (and I still have my doubts..well known people in the modding community have actually offered to host addon repository, and yet to see anything...one name that sticks out was Majiir offered just this..i think just after 0.20 or maybe 0.21).

How do site like Curse currently handle these issue come to think of it?

[DaveofDefeat]

I have a strong dislike for steam workshop.

[DYJ]

There is no legal reason why you wouldn't be allowed to host a thirdparty mod database ( as long as you are just letting mod authors upload their stuff there on their own volition ). There has been a few attempts, some more successful than others. Kerbal.net which I assume is what KhaosCorp is referring too is one of these, and it was indeed shutdown but not after legal or otherwise pressure from squad, its maintainers simply assumed that spaceport would be good enough to make kerbal.net obsolete.

Spaceport is in its current state not a good service and I'd advice people to stay away from it until spaceport 2 rolls out.

[Yilmas]

Persoanly Im all for a 3rd party site, if these several issue can be addressed in a fashion that allows the modding community to operate basicaly as it does now.....Better the Squad devs be working on the game imo then spaceport.

Good to see, we can agree on some topics

Leads me back to previous point...how much of these much needed security features can be automated if indeed 3rd part sites are indeed ok (and I still have my doubts..well known people in the modding community have actually offered to host addon repository, and yet to see anything...one name that sticks out was Majiir offered just this..i think just after 0.20 or maybe 0.21).

How do site like Curse currently handle these issue come to think of it?

I have seen Majiirs name pop up a few times, however not under a topic of a mod database. But perhaps, it might be something that would be worth looking into.

To my knowledge Curse handles the security aspect as part moderator part community.

In the general sense, the community approves of new addons via gameplay through the Curse Client. Which automaticly logs whether or not a user have actually played with that addon, and therefor have experience with it. Before it allows the user to vote on its content.

The moderators then handpicks addons which looks illegit or faulty (through an autonomous system or random, I dont know). Validates its content, and marks it "Curse approved", where as the community can only mark it as "Community approved".

When enough votes have been cast, the addon then gets send to the mass'.

However!!! It must also be noted, that the games that Curse supports, actually have there own SDK, meaning the developers are already in a some what control of what an addon can change/configure.

The case that you thought off, I'm guessing, is from before Curse made it a requirement that the games must have an SDK.

I have a strong dislike for steam workshop.

In which way do you dislike steam workshop ? Any input can be used to improve any future ideas.

There is no legal reason why you wouldn't be allowed to host a thirdparty mod database ( as long as you are just letting mod authors upload their stuff there on their own volition ).

Thanks for the clarification.