Repeated Transmissions?

[congoblast]

Hello First I would say sorry for my English as it is not my narrative language.

What I have done to get all my science points, and fill up my tech-tree, is to send out a probe with some science equipment and some solar cells and then just scan the different altitude of the moons and planets. The thing that I think is weird is that I am allow to set up an action group and spam click on the transmission button instead of returning any sample because I don't need to. This way I can harvest all the science points quickly. I personally got about 6000 science points for scanning Jool and its moons with a flyby to all of them, with only one probe. It got me thinking that, "Is this really fair?, did the developers know that I can do this". I filled up my tech tree with a days playtime and now I want to create a new career were I only transmit once or return the whole sample.

Hope you know what I mean, is this really the way of doing science, maybe in KSP but still, I don't think that the scientist on the ground is interested in the exact same 100 samples of the same thing, even kerbal scientists if you know what I mean

[Tracer]

Yeah, i also find it a bit strange that you can just jump in and out of your ship 4 times, and send 4 eva reports - all of which earn you science.

I also find it strange that you can 'transmit' soil samples back to kerbin - seems like they have installed some kind of star trek transporter onto my ship without telling me.

But, it is a first go at an implementation - hopefully they have lots of tweaks / changes to make to fine tune things

[katateochi]

To really get the most out of KSP you also have to invent your own rules. Yes you can get a ton of points by doing a mission to Jool and its moons, but that is jumping in the deep end. One of my rules is to gradually work out from Kerbin, getting what I can from Kerbin and then its moons before going to the further planets. Cos really you'd not explore the edge of your solar system before first exploring your home world.

Clearly you already know what your doing if you can get to Jool and all its moons on low tech stuff and the tech tree is partly intended to ease new players into the game without swamping them in parts. It's been said before that experienced players could max it out in about 3 missions and then your back to being basically in sandbox mode. So I think the devs are very aware that you can do what you said.

[congoblast]

Yeah I don't really blame them. I am so pleased with the new update, but I am glad that more people feel the same way about this, and I hope it will get changed in a update, because the game seems a bit short with these repeated transmissions of the exact same thing

[congoblast]

Well I am not Scott Manley good, I had a bunch of stuff filled out in the tech tree already before the Jool mission, I was actually first a little later in the game that I found out that I could just repeat the same experiment, and now i'm sitting back playing a wishing that I never found out even though it is quite obvious.

[Umlüx]

I also find it strange that you can 'transmit' soil samples back to kerbin - seems like they have installed some kind of star trek transporter onto my ship without telling me.

i dont think they actually transmit the samples themselves. more likely they run a spectral analysis and whatnot in the command pod and only send the data back. like curiosity on mars does thats also the reason you have to transmit several samples to get the same amount of science as returning it to kerbin.

[Psycix]

I made a thread about this a few days ago.

While the developers promised:

"A picture of a rock is much less meaningful than returning an actual rock."

The system actually works like:

"Sending the same picture of the same rock a dozen times is worth more than returning the rock."

[blizzy78]

The system actually works like:

"Sending the same picture of the same rock a dozen times is worth more than returning the rock."

You forget that you can return the rock multiple times, too. It does not matter if you transmit the data or return it, the total amount of science you get from a single experiment stays the same.

[FITorion]

You forget that you can return the rock multiple times, too. It does not matter if you transmit the data or return it, the total amount of science you get from a single experiment stays the same.

wrong.

You lose science from transmitting. The only time when transmitting is the same as returning... is crew reports. All other experiments you get more for returning the mission than transmitting. By transmitting you reduce the amount of science a subsequent return mission could achieve.

The system mostly matches real life. It isn't the same picture... it isn't the same rock sample... We send probes to Mars and Jupiter and Saturn and they take Hundreds of pictures and record the local magnetic field Hundreds of times. They are running the same experiments over and over again... just like in KSP.

Where it differs from real life is that pure data should transmit at 100%... and transmitting results back should not diminish science returns from subsequent return missions if the transmission was not 100%.

[FITorion]

I made a thread about this a few days ago.

While the developers promised:

"A picture of a rock is much less meaningful than returning an actual rock."

The system actually works like:

"Sending the same picture of the same rock a dozen times is worth more than returning the rock."

The system actually works like:

"Sending a bunch of pictures of a bunch of different rocks is worth more than returning one rock and makes it not worth while to go return any rocks. Not transmitting anything and only returning with multiple different samples would net way more science than the transmissions ever could."

[rhoark]

People have tested this. There is a fixed pool of points available for each combination of experiment and situation. Whether you do a few returns or a lot of transmissions, your final crop of points is the same. Now, a round trip for each sample takes fewer samples, but a lot more time, so is for personal satisfaction only.

[Psycix]

wrong.

You lose science from transmitting. The only time when transmitting is the same as returning... is crew reports. All other experiments you get more for returning the mission than transmitting. By transmitting you reduce the amount of science a subsequent return mission could achieve.

The system mostly matches real life. It isn't the same picture... it isn't the same rock sample... We send probes to Mars and Jupiter and Saturn and they take Hundreds of pictures and record the local magnetic field Hundreds of times. They are running the same experiments over and over again... just like in KSP.

Where it differs from real life is that pure data should transmit at 100%... and transmitting results back should not diminish science returns from subsequent return missions if the transmission was not 100%.

The system actually works like:

"Sending a bunch of pictures of a bunch of different rocks is worth more than returning one rock and makes it not worth while to go return any rocks. Not transmitting anything and only returning with multiple different samples would net way more science than the transmissions ever could."

I am not wrong, allow me to enlighten you with the following data:

EDIT: For completeness I went and did a complete test of both transmitting and recovering data for the SC-9001 Material Bay and Mystery Goo from solar orbit until achieving a return of 0.0 science. Long story short, the only penalty to transmission is the electric charge needed and the time spent clicking on the experiments.

                        Science Points Recived
test number          SC-9001               Mystery Goo
                recover   transmit      recover   transmit
totals          384.8     384.6         198       197.9

1               275       55            110       44
2               78.6      47.1          48.9      34.2
3               22.4      40.4          21.7      26.6
4               6.4       34.6          9.7       20.7
5               1.8       29.7          4.3       16.1
6               0.5       25.4          1.9       12.5
7               0.1	  21.8          0.8       9.7
8               0	  18.7          0.4       7.6
9                         16            0.2       5.9
10                        13.7          0.1       4.6
11                        11.8          0         3.6
12                        10.1                    2.8
13                        8.6                     2.2
14                        7.4                     1.7
15                        6.4                     1.3
16                        5.4                     1
17                        4.7                     0.8
18                        4                       0.6
19                        3.4                     0.5
20                        2.9                     0.4
21                        2.5                     0.3
22                        2.2                     0.2
23                        1.9                     0.2
24                        1.6                     0.1
25                        1.4                     0.1
26                        1.2                     0.1
27                        1                       0.1
28                        0.9                     0
29                        0.7
30                        0.6
31                        0.5
32                        0.5
33                        0.4
34                        0.3
35                        0.3
36                        0.2
37                        0.2
38                        0.2
39                        0.2
40                        0.1
41                        0.1
42                        0.1
43                        0.1
44                        0.1
45                        0.1
46                        0.1
47                        0

Source post. Thanks to yongedevil for performing the test.

As you can see, the eventual science points obtained are almost the same. Transmission-only is equally as effective (and much more practical) rendering sample return useless.

[AmpsterMan]

Hmn... Might it be wise to instead of saying that a transmission has a certain % of reduction of a science value that it instead is that percentage of the cap?

Ie. Mystery goo has a %40 transmission value. In the current set-up that just means we send 40% of the current value of the data. However, with my suggestion, it would mean you can only EVER get Maximum 40% of the value. That is, if the maximum value is 10, you could only ever get 4 science from observing the mystery goo and transmitting back to Kerbin. To get the other 6 you would need to Sample Return. Ofcourse, Sample return would have 100% of the value in the first place.

Whaddya all think?

EDIT:

Better yet, just separate Sample Return and Transmission values entirely! Let each experiment type have a separate Transmission Value and a Sample Return value. There are like Zero Reasons that an EVA report should have 50% value on transmission when it is just a Kerbal's information being jotted down. Instead, have a separate transmission Value (This represents data that can only be discovered the instant it is happening, I.E. The Kerbals Heart rate, O2 Consumption, etc) and a sample return Value (This represents the Kerbals subjective experiences, after affects, etc)

Edited October 21, 2013 by AmpsterMan

[FITorion]

That's what I'd like. Transmissions and returns being separate from each other. No amount of transmissions back from the Mun for instance should mean that you get nothing for returning a rock sample.

... well a least until they add a full on science lab to analyze samples in the spot... Some thing big and heavy... so you could "return" missions to a Base or Space station... instead of having to go all the way back to Kerbin.

Edited October 21, 2013 by FITorion

[blizzy78]

wrong.

You lose science from transmitting. The only time when transmitting is the same as returning... is crew reports. All other experiments you get more for returning the mission than transmitting. By transmitting you reduce the amount of science a subsequent return mission could achieve.

It doesn't matter, as I have been trying to point out. The total number of science points you can get from an experiment, be it by transmission or by returning, stays the same.

[AmpsterMan]

That's what I'd like. Transmissions and returns being separate from each other. No amount of transmissions back from the Mun for instance should mean that you get nothing for returning a rock sample.

Yes! Let's say we get a little Surface Sample Part for probes. It would essentially be a probe Surface Sample Mission. Kerbals are the ones that can grab the rocks, put them in their pockets and go home with them. They can't however do much science with them. Therefore, they can't transmit the data back home. However, a probe can't grab the rocks, put them in a pocket and return. However, they can do a whole slew of science on the rocks in their native environment therefore, a probe Surface Sample Part can have a high transmission value.

The end result is that to get Full Science value from the Surface Sample Science Experiment, you need to send both a probe AND a Kerbal

EDIT: I'll be posting an official suggestion in the suggestions subforum later on tonigjt so please check there if this sounds like something you might like.

Edited October 21, 2013 by AmpsterMan

[Dwight_js]

I'm ok with some of the experiment types returning 100% science points by transmission. The goo experiments are an observation of changes to a known substance in different environments, so sending back reports would be better than returning the goo because it would just revert to its original state back on Kerbin. Unless the goo is irrevocably changed by the experiments, in which case it could be worth extra points to return it. But I agree that returning surface samples should be much more valuable than sending data (except when analyzed at the mobile science lab mentioned by FITorion.

Overall though, science will only be one piece in the puzzle for career mode. There will be costs associated with using parts, so this will factor into how missions are designed and run - trying to get the most science bang for your bucks. I addition, it looks like once the game economy is established, the parts of each level of the tech tree aren't automatically available as you still have to pay a "lump-sum" unlocking cost. So I don't mind the idea of having highly abundant science points available if there are economic factors like that which force you to choose between various methods for obtaining those points.

[GryMor]

wrong.

You lose science from transmitting. The only time when transmitting is the same as returning... is crew reports. All other experiments get more for returning the mission than transmitting. By transmitting you reduce the amount of science a subsequent return mission could achieve.

You do not actually lose science by transmitting results, there is just some overlap.

By my observation, the real pool of points for a particular report (location x experiment) is 1.33 * the base amount of science reported for a return (verified with surface samples, eva reports and crew reports). When you do a return, you transfer .75 of the points left in the pool to KSC. When you transmit you transfer .75*transmit rate to KSC, so for a .2 transmit rate, a transmit followed by a return you get 5% more science than for just a return.

[FITorion]

You do not actually lose science by transmitting results, there is just some overlap.

By my observation, the real pool of points for a particular report (location x experiment) is 1.33 * the base amount of science reported for a return (verified with surface samples, eva reports and crew reports). When you do a return, you transfer .75 of the points left in the pool to KSC. When you transmit you transfer .75*transmit rate to KSC, so for a .2 transmit rate, a transmit followed by a return you get 5% more science than for just a return.

I'm happy to be wrong about that. The in game text descriptions lead me to believe as I did. I did not know that the diminishing returns rate changed less after a transmission then a sample return. I thought they were the same... so you could do an equal number of return missions as transmissions... and with the loss on transmission that would mean lost points never to be regained. I'm happy you can just keep transmitting until the point pool is exhausted and no points... or just hardly any are lost.

[giltirn]

I like the idea of separating the science pools for transmitted science against return samples, or at least having some extra science that can only be obtained by returning samples. For more distant missions the devs could add a manned laboratory module for doing science in situ with the intention of these modules being deployed on space stations or planetary bases. I think this would give player motivation to set up infrastructure rather than just fire-and-forget probes.

[crparris]

I think the mechanic is fine as is, it is simply incomplete. The only thing i would add to make returning samples more valuable is:

1. a small storage bay, (requiring kerbals to use), to keep multiple samples (like 10).

2. these can be viewed separately, deleted anytime.

3. a fixed bonus that adds an additional amount of science upon successful return of the stored samples

.

[FITorion]

A current real life example is the Juno probe headed to Jupiter. It's going to do 33 close approaches to Jupiter from a polar orbit avoiding all the moons and take repeated readings of various things but mainly the magnetic field in high, medium and low orbit. Then it will be commanded to burn up in Jupiter's atmosphere.

Exactly like a probe mission we'd do in KSP. Send probe on one way trip... transmit back everything we can... destroy probe... send new probe with different instruments... repeat.

Edited October 21, 2013 by FITorion

[illusori]

I'm hoping that the science as implemented is a first-version placeholder and will be revised much like other aspects of the game have been revised as new patches come out, I think there's a lot of potential but it needs more depth and breadth, IMO I'd like to see these features:

* A portion of science that can only be achieved by sample return to a lab.

* Potentially some progression of science experiments in the tech tree to permit a greater portion of the science to be produced without sample return (the analysis we can do in 2013 on a rover on mars includes stuff we had to do in white coats on earth on returned moon rocks in previous decades...)

* Experiments that take time to gather data, possibly from a pool that replenishes slowly (so you can't just send 4 probes and have them all gather it in parallel).

* The ability to make a mobile lab that samples can be returned to for physical analysis, but not as effectively as a return to Kerbin.

I'm loving 0.22 and the science, I'm hoping it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what form it will eventually take, it has great potential.

[congoblast]

The amount you lose by transmitting is extremely small if you continue to send and send and send. Because you can send for an example 20% of 100 which is 20 science points, then you can again transmit 20% of the left 80 science points which is 16, then you'll have 64 science points left to be harvested form the same example and 20% from 64...I hope you catch my drift. You will end up with 20% of maybe 1 science point left that you don't harvest in the end. I know it's a lot of transmissions, but it's still a lot faster doing it this way if you are for an example in a orbit around Jool collecting from its moons. I just physical time warp and let it do its thing for maybe 2-10 minutes.

Edited October 22, 2013 by congoblast

[congoblast]

Hmn... Might it be wise to instead of saying that a transmission has a certain % of reduction of a science value that it instead is that percentage of the cap?

Ie. Mystery goo has a %40 transmission value. In the current set-up that just means we send 40% of the current value of the data. However, with my suggestion, it would mean you can only EVER get Maximum 40% of the value. That is, if the maximum value is 10, you could only ever get 4 science from observing the mystery goo and transmitting back to Kerbin. To get the other 6 you would need to Sample Return. Ofcourse, Sample return would have 100% of the value in the first place.

Whaddya all think?

EDIT:

Better yet, just separate Sample Return and Transmission values entirely! Let each experiment type have a separate Transmission Value and a Sample Return value. There are like Zero Reasons that an EVA report should have 50% value on transmission when it is just a Kerbal's information being jotted down. Instead, have a separate transmission Value (This represents data that can only be discovered the instant it is happening, I.E. The Kerbals Heart rate, O2 Consumption, etc) and a sample return Value (This represents the Kerbals subjective experiences, after affects, etc)

This is exactly what I mean, great suggestion.