manuevre nodes improvement

[dissidify]

I have thought about ways in which the manoeuvre nodes can be improved because they can be quite often a faff to get right. The number of toggles in each node is too easy to miss click so an idea to fix that would be to, add to the option box that askes when you add a manoeuvre node the three different types of node. I then thought any plane change manoeuvre nodes should automatically appear on a descending node when a target is selected. The toggles on each node are not suited for plane changes so how about a 360 degree protractor for the manual adjustments.

A reason why manoeuvre nodes are great is because they can reduce three burns into one, so when multiple nodes of different types are added onto an orbital path they can be manually dragged on top on the other with a snapping action that creates a node at a distance between the two of maximum efficiency, where the orbit change setup will remain the same.

The blue toggles that shift the orbit could overlay the map view with a sphere in the centre of the orbit, the centre of the planetary body being orbited and the centre of a targets orbit, the orbit could then be dragged to the position most wanted and could even snap to the centres listed.

the main reason I thought they needed improved is the difficulty in getting a burn right, there could be a slider that changes the precision of the toggles for large burns at full slider and tiny adjustments at empty slider.

This is just a series of ideas that I want other peoples opinions on, any improvements to the idea, why it is a good/bad idea.

[Dunbaratu]

Maneuver nodes should rotate the blue marker over time to reflect the new direction. For example, a prograde maneuver should turn to stay prograde during the burn as you curve through the orbit. A normal or antinormal maneuver marker should rotate as the plane rotates. As it stands, I never use maneuver nodes anymore to do anything other than predict the right time to do a transfer burn by seeing ahead of time what it would do. I get better results flying manually because I can rotate during the burn.

[Sirrobert]

Maneuver nodes should rotate the blue marker over time to reflect the new direction. For example, a prograde maneuver should turn to stay prograde during the burn as you curve through the orbit. A normal or antinormal maneuver marker should rotate as the plane rotates. As it stands, I never use maneuver nodes anymore to do anything other than predict the right time to do a transfer burn by seeing ahead of time what it would do. I get better results flying manually because I can rotate during the burn.

It's the other way around. The marker points to where you need to burn to get the predicted flight path. If your burn moves with the vector, you get a slightly different path.

This is because the node asumes you get instant acceleration (100% of the deltaV at the exact moment of the node). Since this obviously doesn't happen, the node compensates.

If you miss the node by 30 seconds, and than burn towards the marker, you still get your predicted flight path. If you get thrown off course and than burn to the marker, you still get your predicted flight path

[Comrade Jenkens]

It's the other way around. The marker points to where you need to burn to get the predicted flight path. If your burn moves with the vector, you get a slightly different path.

This is because the node asumes you get instant acceleration (100% of the deltaV at the exact moment of the node). Since this obviously doesn't happen, the node compensates.

If you miss the node by 30 seconds, and than burn towards the marker, you still get your predicted flight path. If you get thrown off course and than burn to the marker, you still get your predicted flight path

I'm not sure which maneuverer nodes you've been using but the ones on my version don't do that

[Kasuha]

Maneuver nodes should rotate the blue marker over time to reflect the new direction. For example, a prograde maneuver should turn to stay prograde during the burn as you curve through the orbit. A normal or antinormal maneuver marker should rotate as the plane rotates. As it stands, I never use maneuver nodes anymore to do anything other than predict the right time to do a transfer burn by seeing ahead of time what it would do. I get better results flying manually because I can rotate during the burn.

You only think you get better results. In fact your results are worse. By burning prograde when you are not at periapsis anymore you're elevating both your apoapsis and your periapsis - the second being waste of fuel. Continuing to burn in the direction which used to be prograde while you were at periapsis is the most effective way to raise your apoapsis.

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Personally I wish it was possible to manipulate the maneuver node from keyboard, even if it is not on the screen. Sometimes I have very hard time getting both the maneuver node and the area of interest on the screen in a way which allows me to manipulate the node correctly. For instance something like Alt + Arrows and Home/End, with Shift for fine tuning.

It would be also nice if it was possible to reset the node, i.e. clear all added velocities and allow setting them up again. Even better would be ability to clear each component separately (radial, normal, prograde). Or at least display individual components separately somewhere so I could clear them manually.

[lazarus1024]

My wish is for something like protractor to be added in stock.

Click on your intended target and it'll show you when/where to burn to achieve intercept.

That said, I mostly work fine with regular manuever nodes.

[artao]

I'd really really really like to see snapping to apokerb, perikerb, AN, and DN. Pretty please? Also, as mentioned above, keyboard controls for node editing would be GREAT.

Another annoying thing. If you've got nodes set up for burns, then EVA, then go back into the ship, your nodes are GONE! not cool. very not cool. All nodes should be saved per-ship, regardless of the ship being focused or not.

Please.

[Dunbaratu]

You only think you get better results. In fact your results are worse. By burning prograde when you are not at periapsis anymore you're elevating both your apoapsis and your periapsis - the second being waste of fuel. Continuing to burn in the direction which used to be prograde while you were at periapsis is the most effective way to raise your apoapsis.

Okay then I withdraw my comment about prograde burns. I do not, however, withdraw my comment about normal and antinormal burns. They are definitely wrong they way they work now. The way they work now it's impossible to change your inclination with them without also changing your apoapsis because they are only in the correct direction at the start of the burn, not after that. It is also impossible to perform an inclination change of >= 90 degrees with them because they don't rotate with the plane.

[Dunbaratu]

If you miss the node by 30 seconds, and than burn towards the marker, you still get your predicted flight path. If you get thrown off course and than burn to the marker, you still get your predicted flight path

False.

The maneuver nodes do not adjust for you if you miss the right moment in time to burn.

And while it's possible to get the effect as if it was an instantaneous burn with a prograde or retrograde burn by starting your burn time prior to the time mark so the time mark is in the middle of your burn duration rather than the start of it, this same sort of thing is NOT done properly for normal and antinormal burns because the direction you are given is the direction at the start of burn rather than the direction halfway through the burn.

For normal and antinormal direction, if the game wants to let you do it by a single straight-direction burn, it should be giving you the direction that's halfway between the start and finish directions rather than the direction at the start of the burn. If you set up a node that will change inclination by 20 degrees, then the direction of burn should start off being 10 degrees off from normal in the retrograde direction. That makes the 20 degrees of normal change straddle the 90 degree mark in the middle (from 100 degrees at the start of burn to 80 degrees at the end of it) rather than putting the 90 degree mark at the start (from 90 degrees to 70 degrees during the burn).

This suggestion would mean that your orbit gets smaller at first, then halfway through starts getting bigger again until it ends roughly the same size as it started. The way it works right now, normal and antinormal manuever nodes always have the side effect of making your orbit bigger because while they start off being perpendicular to your plane, they don't stay that way as the prograde direction tilts toward the aiming vector.

[Kasuha]

I do not, however, withdraw my comment about normal and antinormal burns. They are definitely wrong they way they work now.

Again, it is more effective to do a straight burn than to make a curved one. The reason is the same as why bow string is always shorter than the wooden part.

Maneuvers are uncomfortable in the sense that they don't keep your AP/PA when changing inclination, but it is possible to pull retrograde while adjusting the inclination and find a maneuver which won't change your PA/AP and will do the required inclination change.

The only case where I found maneuvers unreliable are long burns (e.g. 15 minutes) using Oberth effect where you end much higher above the planet than where the burn started. One time after executing such burn to within 0.1 m/s I found myself about 5 degrees away from the trajectory I planned to achieve.

[Dunbaratu]

Again, it is more effective to do a straight burn than to make a curved one. The reason is the same as why bow string is always shorter than the wooden part.

Maneuvers are uncomfortable in the sense that they don't keep your AP/PA when changing inclination, but it is possible to pull retrograde while adjusting the inclination and find a maneuver which won't change your PA/AP and will do the required inclination change.

Re-read what I posted. If the manuever you're looking for is an inclination change it should be able to calculate that correctly rather than relying on you having to guess it in an analog way without being able to see the numbers. How far do you pull retrograde to get exactly 5 degrees off, for example? It's unknown because you can't see the numbers.

[TheBeardyMan]

It would also be useful for manoeuvre nodes to have plus and minus buttons to delay them by a whole number of orbits for situations where you're in a parking orbit and want to plan your transfer burn now but the planet you want to reach won't be in position for a transfer until you've completed several more orbits.

[boolybooly]

Maneuver nodes should be adjusted by the navball not on the node itself, its too easy to drop them when you zoom out, currently they are really useful but a pain to use.

So where the dV indicator is now there should also be the XYZ axese to the right, as part of the HUD not part of the map.

[astrospud]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before (not really inclined to wade through pages of thread searches), but how about a instantaneous overlay of both the Ap and Pe showing values as you adjust your nodes on the fly? I think the current method of dragging node, mouse over AP/PA to see changes made, rinse and repeat for fine adjustments.

I imagine there is a mod for that, but I'm not aware of it.