Cassini Gets New Views of Titan's Land of Lakes

[czokletmuss]

With the sun now shining down over the north pole of Saturn's moon Titan, a little luck with the weather, and trajectories that put the spacecraft into optimal viewing positions, NASA's Cassini spacecraft has obtained new pictures of the liquid methane and ethane seas and lakes that reside near Titan's north pole. The images reveal new clues about how the lakes formed and about Titan's Earth-like "hydrologic" cycle, which involves hydrocarbons rather than water

Source: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-304&utm_source=iContact&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=NASAJPL&utm_content=release+2013-304#1

I wonder if we'll see another probe on Titan in my lifespan. I also hope that it will appear in KSP, maybe as a mun of the second gas giant. Such mun (let's call it Cyclop) would be very interesting target with dense atmosphere and low gravity. I guess we can't expect Titan probe soon - which I completely don't understand, there are a bodies of liquid on surface, for Kod's sake - so at least we may have the possibility of doing some mission in the game.

[nhnifong]

Cassini is awesome!

At first glance, I think it's a little strange that the dendritic drainage patterns are not more pronounced. Perhaps the precipitation is actually not very frequent, or perhaps the fluid just soaks straight down to the water-table easily without having to run downhill to the nearest lake. On Earth when we see this, it's because there is vegetation preventing the erosion..;D

[Tommygun]

I would love to see a probe in long term orbit around Titan. A few astronomers have complained that NASA is too focused on Mars and I can emphasized when I think about some of the moons we see so little of.

I'd be happy to give up one Mars orbital probe for one to orbit Titan or to Europa if it landed something on it.

[Rjhere]

You know, those lakes are probably methane... Or something like that... Wouldn't be so habitable....

[JebidiahsBigSister]

You know, those lakes are probably methane... Or something like that... Wouldn't be so habitable....

Yup - it's about -289 Fahrenheit or so there now so we're looking at methane lakes. Earth was initially formed with a methane atmosphere and had a thriving biosphere based on methane about 3 billion years ago - but it was much warmer than Titan is now. But good new Titan! About 5 billion years from now the Sun will grow in size and luminosity (and stay that way for a couple/few billion years) so much that Titan will become Earth-like in temperature so we probably should start planting Monoliths or something.

[Scotius]

Baloon probe would be awesome too In that soupy atmosphere it should have some serious lift.

[Bunsen]

Baloon probe would be awesome too In that soupy atmosphere it should have some serious lift.

You can do even better than that. Low gravity, low temperature, and a dense atmosphere all make flying easier. So easy that an airplane can fly for years on a radiothermal power source that doesn't even make up much of its mass. There have been a few proposed missions along these lines, most recently AVIATR, based on NASA's newfangled Stirling generator. I'm a big fan of the concept -- imagine a probe doing radar and optical mapping of the entire surface of Titan from a few kilometers of altitude, with the freedom to dip lower over interesting sites for a better view. And all the atmospheric science you could possibly want, too.

[Idobox]

You know, those lakes are probably methane... Or something like that... Wouldn't be so habitable....

We had a discussion on the habitability of Titan on this forum.

It went something like :

-There are energy gradients that life could use (disappearing hydrogen mystery).

-Nah, life needs a better and warmer temperatures

-You can't be sure of that

-yes I am, because proteins and amino acid wouldn't work

-some other chemistry might be possible

-oh yeah, give me an example

at which point it turned into a petty dispute.

Still, there is hydrogen disappearing close to the surface, and it is very interesting to go see what is causing it, because we don't have a good explanation yet.

[czokletmuss]

More info about the recent discovery:

This false-color mosaic, made from infrared data collected by NASA's Cassini spacecraft, reveals the differences in the composition of surface materials around hydrocarbon lakes at Titan, Saturn's largest moon. Titan is the only other place in the solar system that we know has stable liquid on its surface, though its lakes are made of liquid ethane and methane rather than liquid water. While there is one large lake and a few smaller ones near Titan's south pole, almost all of Titan's lakes appear near the moon's north pole.

Source: http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA17470

[Deadpangod3]

Kraken mare,

The kraken lives on Titan!?

QUICK! CALL IN JEB!!

[K^2]

Cassini is awesome!

At first glance, I think it's a little strange that the dendritic drainage patterns are not more pronounced. Perhaps the precipitation is actually not very frequent, or perhaps the fluid just soaks straight down to the water-table easily without having to run downhill to the nearest lake. On Earth when we see this, it's because there is vegetation preventing the erosion..;D

Keep in mind that you are looking at an area near the North Pole. Most of the features we have here on Earth in the extreme Northern/Southern regions is due to glaciers. If it weren't for them, we wouldn't have much in terms of rivers there either. Precipitation cycle is going to be much more powerful in near-equatorial regions, so that's where I'd expect to see rivers and canyons.

[sidew]

Kraken Mare ?????? O_o

Seem there are someone at JPL playing KSP....

[Motokid600]

I was observing Titan through my 11 inch CPC scope last night. A brilliant orange dot hanging next to Saturn. Just beautiful. Screw Mars. The only thing that interests me about that place is what's under the ground. The moons are where its at. All this effort sending complex missions to Mars should instead be a fleet of tiny observers to the outter planets. Id trade Curiosity for probes around all the gas/ice giants any day.

[lajoswinkler]

I agree that NASA is too obsessed with Mars. Granted, I can't blame them, with all the peanuts they receive from the government.

We need a probe for Jupiter system because of Europa and Io. Investigating Triton would be a good thing to do, too.

[K^2]

Unfortunately, there is a very big difference between what would be scientifically useful, and what people think NASA should do. There is no glory in a robotic lander. People want to see manned missions to other worlds, and honestly, Mars is the only thing within reach that isn't just a whole lot of gray rock. So NASA has to keep up at least an appearance of trying to send a manned mission to Mars if they hope to keep their funding. And to be fair, I think NASA is doing a very good job of combining scientific utility with satisfying public's thirst for space.

[mdatspace]

I would love to see a probe in long term orbit around Titan. A few astronomers have complained that NASA is too focused on Mars and I can emphasized when I think about some of the moons we see so little of.

I'd be happy to give up one Mars orbital probe for one to orbit Titan or to Europa if it landed something on it.

I agree. It seems like NASA has something for mars.

[mdatspace]

I agree that NASA is too obsessed with Mars. Granted, I can't blame them, with all the peanuts they receive from the government.

We need a probe for Jupiter system because of Europa and Io. Investigating Triton would be a good thing to do, too.

Indeed. NASA is trying to focus on mars the best it can, as it may be the only way to get back public interest. By doing so, they have kind of left the outer solar system to wait.

Unfortunately, there is a very big difference between what would be scientifically useful, and what people think NASA should do. There is no glory in a robotic lander. People want to see manned missions to other worlds, and honestly, Mars is the only thing within reach that isn't just a whole lot of gray rock. So NASA has to keep up at least an appearance of trying to send a manned mission to Mars if they hope to keep their funding. And to be fair, I think NASA is doing a very good job of combining scientific utility with satisfying public's thirst for space.

You have to do both, but if they found life on Europa, it would be quite big.

[Mr Shifty]

Indeed. NASA is trying to focus on mars the best it can, as it may be the only way to get back public interest. By doing so, they have kind of left the outer solar system to wait.

Two Voyager missions, Cassini, Galileo, Juno, Dawn, New Horizons, etc. I don't think NASA is ignoring the outer solar system.

[K^2]

You have to do both, but if they found life on Europa, it would be quite big.

We don't really have any indication of life on Europa. All we know is that there might be liquid water there, which is a tiny fraction of requirements for life. And even if we thought it to be likely enough to look for, finding it there would be really hard. If it's there, it's under a thick layer of ice. We have hard time digging that deep here, on Earth. Doing it on a remote moon with nothing but robots to take care of any emergent problems? A manned mission to Mars is easy in comparison. If we knew for sure that there is life there... But as it stands, I'd keep Europa on the back burner for now.

Titan, on the other hand is relatively easy to land a probe on, and if there is life there, of which there is some indication, a robotic lab comparable to what we've sent to Mars already will be able to confirm it. So if we are planning a rover mission to the outer system, I don't think anything other than Titan should even be considered. That's the most interesting target out there. Furthermore, confirmation of life on Titan would be an even bigger deal than that on Europa. If two completely different forms of life exist in Solar system, the rest of the universe is filled with it. And if we can expand the search from Earth-like planets to things more like Titan, systems without some kind of life are going to turn out to be a minority in the galaxy. That would be the biggest discovery bar none.

So forget Europa. All it has going for it is hype. Titan is where science is.

[Tommygun]

I'd prefer a Titan orbiter/probe myself, but I would like to see a simple small lander on Europa, if it could determine the thickness of the ice and if it has liquid water under it or not.

Then they could decide what to do next on Europa.

[Psycix]

I vouch for a titan-like moon to be added to KSP. Including the Kraken mare which will contain actual live space kraken.

They eat struts for breakfast.

[mdatspace]

Two Voyager missions, Cassini, Galileo, Juno, Dawn, New Horizons, etc. I don't think NASA is ignoring the outer solar system.

I am waiting on Juno. You are right.

We don't really have any indication of life on Europa. All we know is that there might be liquid water there, which is a tiny fraction of requirements for life. And even if we thought it to be likely enough to look for, finding it there would be really hard. If it's there, it's under a thick layer of ice. We have hard time digging that deep here, on Earth. Doing it on a remote moon with nothing but robots to take care of any emergent problems? A manned mission to Mars is easy in comparison. If we knew for sure that there is life there... But as it stands, I'd keep Europa on the back burner for now.

Titan, on the other hand is relatively easy to land a probe on, and if there is life there, of which there is some indication, a robotic lab comparable to what we've sent to Mars already will be able to confirm it. So if we are planning a rover mission to the outer system, I don't think anything other than Titan should even be considered. That's the most interesting target out there. Furthermore, confirmation of life on Titan would be an even bigger deal than that on Europa. If two completely different forms of life exist in Solar system, the rest of the universe is filled with it. And if we can expand the search from Earth-like planets to things more like Titan, systems without some kind of life are going to turn out to be a minority in the galaxy. That would be the biggest discovery bar none.

So forget Europa. All it has going for it is hype. Titan is where science is.

Europa may have a mantle of warm ice. If that is true, however, the chances of life there are little. If it has a large ocean, the chances are high.

If life was on titan, there would be far more to see compared to Europa. Life living on a much different chemistry. I think titan has chances. It has cryovolcanism(Sotra Facula), and it likely erupts water and ammonia. That means that beneath said feature, there could be a reservoir filled with an water/ammonia mix. If that is true, which it likely is, titan may have more potential than Europa. Titan has the atmosphere. Landing there will be like earth. The geologist inside of me wants to know.

[K^2]

Well, Squad have been talking about a second gas giant. Something that is Saturn-like. I would bet that they will include a moon similar to Titan when this new planet is added.

If life was on titan, there would be far more to see compared to Europa. Life living on a much different chemistry. I think titan has chances. It has cryovolcanism(Sotra Facula), and it likely erupts water and ammonia. That means that beneath said feature, there could be a reservoir filled with an water/ammonia mix. If that is true, which it likely is, titan may have more potential than Europa. Titan has the atmosphere. Landing there will be like earth. The geologist inside of me wants to know.

I wouldn't discount metanogens either. It would require a completely different chemistry to use methane as solvent, but low temperatures mean that you would need something other than hydrogen bonds to keep your complex molecules together, and having a non-polar solvent does allow you to do that. So we might see life in methane oceans that does not rely on water at all.

Edited October 27, 2013 by K^2

[mdatspace]

Well, Squad have been talking about a second gas giant. Something that is Saturn-like. I would bet that they will include a moon similar to Titan when this new planet is added.

I wouldn't discount metanogens either. It would require a completely different chemistry to use methane as solvent, but low temperatures mean that you would need something other than hydrogen bonds to keep your complex molecules together, and having a non-polar solvent does allow you to do that. So we might see life in methane oceans that does not rely on water at all.

Europa may have an ocean, and Rossby waves could help that. If so, hydrothermal vents could easily hold life. Methane is not as good of a solvent as water. Where the cryovolcanism is at, there is heat. That certainly helps life. What about Enceladus? Edited October 27, 2013 by mdatspace

[lajoswinkler]

Again with the cryogenic methane "life". Ignoring Europa's depths and looking forward to Titan's surface, as if some of you never learned organic chemistry in your lives...

I say let's search for helium life on the Sun. When life gives you lemons...