[1.1.3] AntennaRange 1.11.4 - Enforce and Encourage Antenna Diversity

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I also can't seem to transfer the Nominal range to meters or kilometers, what is the used measurement and what is the starting point? Kerbol? Because, for example Minmus is about 46,000.00 km away from Kerbin, but the Communotron 16's range comment states that it has "Maximum distance 51696km, about 10% past Minmus", but the nominal range of the antenna is 18277500.

The range is in meters, and the nominal range is the distance where the "usual" data rate and power rate apply. If you're closer, you get a boost to data rate, up to the maxDataFactor. If you're further, you can still transmit, but it costs more power, up to the maxPowerFactor (after that, the link is unavailable). So, the whip says "maxPowerFactor = 8", which means it will transmit beyond the nominal range until each packet costs eight times the usual amount of power (presumably to stop the satellite from starving itself attempting interplanetary communication). Because transmission range goes by the inverse-square of transmit power, the maximum range is the square root of 8 (that is, 2.828) times the nominal range, and 18.3 Mm x 2.828 = 51.7 Mm.

[toadicus]

1. Long antenna(16) - Lander antenna - So a range of no more than 3 Mm

Assuming you want a 3 Mm range when transmitting with other Comm. 16s, you could do that with something like this:

# Reduce Toadicus' range for Communotron 16
@PART[longAntenna]:AFTER[AntennaRange]:NEEDS[!RemoteTech2]
{
        @MODULE[ModuleLimitedDataTransmitter]
        {
                @nominalRange = 1060660
        }
}

1060660 * sqrt(8) ~= 3 Mm

When transmitting to your "350 Gm dish" (it actually goes 424 Gm when talking with others like it), it would still have a longer range:

sqrt(3000000 * 150000000000 * sqrt(8)) = 1.12 gigameters

To get a 3 Mm range when talking to get "350 Gm dish", you'd need a maximum range on the Comm. 16 of 21.2 meters (nominal of 7.5 m).

This is a fairly realistic solution. You could talk with a walky-talky on the Moon, and one of the big DSN antennas could still hear you (in fact, they'd probably hear you better than they hear the Voyager probes; ignoring antenna gains the power transmitted by the voyager probes would be something like 6 orders of magnitude smaller by the time it got here than that from your Moon walky-talky).

I've looked in to trying to use "real" formulas and numbers for all of this, but with the ranges in KSP being so short, I'd need to cut power cost down to such a tiny fraction that you'd never care, increase the cosmic background noise level to marching band proportions, or be OK with monopole antennas talking just fine well past the edge of the Kerbolar system. So, for now I'm still handwaving things a bit, but using the geometric mean to let links be symmetrical is a reasonable approximation of reality and offers (I think) a good medium between "real" and "fun".

[John Nowak]

I think this is a wonderful change. I recently lost out on my first Duna probes because the big dish wasn't available yet.

Now, if only there were career-mode ground stations...

[toadicus]

John Nowak, I'm not sure what you mean by "Career-mode ground stations". Care to elaborate?

[John Nowak]

John Nowak, I'm not sure what you mean by "Career-mode ground stations". Care to elaborate?

Yes, apologies. This came out of a conversation about AntennaRange and RemoteTech on the G+ KSP group. One observation that was made was that while AntennaRange assumed that Kerbin was covered with ground stations, RemoteTech didn't have any ground station apart from the tracking station itself. A suggestion came up that in career mode, at least, it might be possible to restrict the Tracking Station's area of coverage to the horizon (so it's effectively covering a hemisphere), and allow the player to pay to build ground stations at different lat-lon locations with more or less the same capability as the Tracking Station.

Obviously, most players would probably start off by covering the equator, probably with downrange stations starting off fairly close to KSP and then getting further apart as the anticipated LOS to the vehicles heading to orbit allows spacecraft to fly above the blind spots. And then you run into potential issues with high-latitude coverage - are you better off setting up tracking stations up there, or orbiting satellites? Will keosynchronous satellites actually have a good use, because they can be positioned to permanently fill coverage gaps?

I have to admit I was a little surprised to visit Mission Control in Houston and see dead areas in the communications network with the ISS - there was a countdown to loss of signal and another showing when the signal would be regained.

[toadicus]

So, I have one basic complaint about ground stations: they're tedious. I'm not saying no one would like them or that they can't be fun, but they are tedious. Here's a bit more about why:

RemoteTech has a single ground station: KSC. You then have to build a whole orbital network to get connectivity. This has never been realistic, but it's their thing and their users like it, so it's fine. With a cfg file, though, you can add a bunch of them all over the place. There are configs to match old KSC, the KerbinSide locations, and probably a whole lot more. That makes it more interesting, but there's no cleverness involved: you just downloaded a cfg file and hey presto, you've got a much easier time of getting connections done. It's also arbitrary; I could make a config that for example supported KerbinSide, but you could make a config that just put them at every 1° lat/long intersection. There's no obvious, stock-compatible logic available for placing "pre play" ground stations. I don't particularly like adding features that don't offer some opportunity for cleverness, because in my opinion exploiting cleverness is the core of what makes KSP fun.

An alternative would be to require manually-placed stations -- you could drop them off rockets or fly them over with planes or drive them around with rovers, whatever. That's horribly tedious. That's most of what was wrong with science pre-0.90 and half of what's still wrong with contracts today: tooling around your home planet as a tax for playing a game about exploration and cleverness is agreeable so far as it's educational, but it needs to be something that's easily sidelined by players who want to get out and explore the cosmos. Again, some people will like it and that's fine, but at its core it's just a time sink. I don't particularly like adding time sinks, because I'm a busy guy myself and I see value in respecting the players' time.

So, the real problem here (in my opinion) is that there's no easy middle ground. On the one hand, we can magically add ground stations at arbitrary locations for free. On the other hand, we can manually design, build, and deliver them. In the middle somewhere there's a "build ground station here" button that puts a little transmitter on the ground somewhere in exchange for funds or rep. That is a system I could get behind, but I'm pretty sure that's a system that's actually very complicated to implement, especially if we want the stations to be physical things that you can interact with.

A possible implementation concept that might be within reach of this mod would be hybrid between the RT "config-based" content and the "build station here" content -- allow pre-configured stations to be purchased for funds or rep. I could maybe show them in map views, but if you walked up to them there'd be nothing to see.

Before I do this, though, I'd like to hear cases for ground stations that address at least two of these three criteria: realism (is the concept grounded in reality? how?), "fun" (does the concept offer challenging but rewarding gameplay? does it help the player feel clever or successful? how?), or educational (does the concept help teach new players how to play the game? how?). I'm willing to concede realism to some degree, but since I'm guessing the ISS blind spots are the fault of oceans or political gamemanship, and the latter isn't modeled in KSP, and since real-world space programs managed to negotiate nearly worldwide coverage at the very dawn of space exploration, it feels like a weak argument on its face.

I strongly encourage you and other interested parties to make such cases. I really am very happy to listen and have my mind changed.

[Mecripp]

Not that, I would care about a ground station but really 2 should roughly cover kerbin would think but to answer you question. I would have to say look at your ranges and ask your self the same thing ? What more are you giving over stock your 2 of the 3 part just about cover the little kerbal system , I won't post any more cfg for this mod and have moved all downs but one, I'm glad to have see it come this far.

[DudewHorns]

How about making an add-on for AntennaRange. (For those who want ground stations) Some of the benefits of setting up ground stations, extra science/biomes.. why not if you are hopping all over kerbin to grab that extra science mooch why not set up a sat link while there? I guess I would prefer something like that. And for the graphical lines you could put a line (maybe dotted) through kerbin to indicate a link.

For the educational side of it, it gives a lesson on how to land at point A (or fill in yer favorite letter/number here ) while in an atmosphere. And as far as the ocean blind spots go, why not make a floating sat link?

Just my ramblings and what not.. either way you still have an awesome mod!

Edit: I always play career mode, so that's where my point of view is from.

Edited June 2, 2015 by DudewHorns

[smunisto]

Thank you for the responses, regarding the maths behind AntennaRange. I actually didn't even realise I posted my reply, as you can see it is quite unfinished

Anyways, now that I know how to calculate some of the values, maybe I can play around with the additional 2 Origami dishes and the three stock ones to space them out evenly and logically with regard to the tech tree progression.

As it stands right now, by the time I sent probes to Jool I only had 88-88s, which, as it turns out, have a range of only a few Mm. I thought that when I unlock the first of the Origami dishes - 69 Gm, it would be enough to reach Jool via the additive ranges, but alas. If I get the equation correctly, as per my patch:

The nominal range for my craft - A transmitter 88-88 and a receiver 69 Gm should be the one in your example:

What's more interesting is dissimilar pairs. For example, your commDish and your 69Gm dish:

√(20000000×30000000000) = 774596669

But the maximum transmission range from the outbound craft with the CommDish (88-88, never understood why Squad left such drastic differences between cfg and in-game partnames) on it should be:

sqrt(20 000 000*30 000 000 000*sqrt(8)) = 1.30 Gm

I am starting to understand how it all works and the feeling is wonderful!!!

Now I only need to calculate the farthest points between Kerbin and each other planet and I will be able to balance the dishes in some sensible manner.

If my maths don't suck as much as I think, for example for Jool: We know that its Ap is 72 212 238 387 m or 72.21 Gm.

Kerbin's Ap is 13 599 840 256 or 13.59 Gm.

Theoretically(excluding all other factors), in order to make the 69 Gm able to reach as far out as Jool when communicating with 69 Gm's around Kerbin, I would need something like this:

We assume that the maximum possible distance between Kerbin and Jool is 72.21+13.59 = 85.80 Gm.

I will add 5% to this distance just in case, so a max distance of 90.09 Gm is needed for a valid link between Kerbin and Jool.

So, basically I need:

@PART[NAU_ORI69Gm]:FOR[AntennaRange]:NEEDS[!RemoteTech2]
{
        %TechRequired = electronics

        @MODULE[ModuleDataTransmitter]
        {
                @name = ModuleLimitedDataTransmitter
                nominalRange = 53570000000
                maxPowerFactor = 8
                maxDataFactor = 4
        }

Because: sqrt(53570000000*53570000000*sqrt(8)) = 90.09364 Gm

Am I right so far?

And how realistic does this seem with regard to tech tree progression? Such an antenna, which is currently in a node for 300 Science(same as nuclear engines), covers everything up to Jool, so all of the inner planets too. However Eeloo's crosses Jool's orbit, making it closer to Kerbin in certain situations.

Sorry for the brainstorming session, hope I am not mudding the water in the thread pond too much.

Edited June 2, 2015 by smunisto

[KerbMav]

.

I am a simple guy in this case.

We have options for LOS and probe control - another for KSC receiver only for a touch more realism and done.

[toadicus]

MeCripp, I know you think the ranges are too high, and I'm glad you've been so dedicated to writing shorter range configurations thusfar. I've explained my reasons for not adding new parts to improve the progression several times, and I am sorry it's disappointing to you.

As far as realism goes: remember that Voyager 1 is 19.5 terameters from Earth, and is talking all the way back to home base without any intermediate relays. The only cases I'm aware of where remote spacecraft use intermediate relays in real life are mothership/lander pairs, e.g. Rosetta/Philae.

DudewHorns, am I correctly understanding that you would be a proponent of manually designed, built, and delivered stations paired with a single fixed-point receiver (KSC)?

smunisto, you're very close. The sqrt(maxPowerFactor) term, though, is only used for converting between nominal range and maximum range for a given "similar link". To find the nominal range given a desired maximum range, you just divide by sqrt(maxPowerFactor), e.g.

nominalRange = 90,093,640,000 m / sqrt(8) = 31852911892 m

I actually do exactly the opposite of that in my code to convert the specified nominalRange into a maximum range:

maxTransmitDistance = 31852911892  m × sqrt(8) = 90093639997 m

A "similar link" is a link between two of the same antennas. We don't need to take the mean to find the range between two similar antennas, because √(r²) = r as an identity.

The geometric mean is only necessary for calculating links between dissimilar antennas. To your first question, again you're close but not quite there. Links are symmetrical when using geometric ranges, so the link between your 69 Gm dish and your commDish (as given in the first half of your post) is the same as the link between the commDish and the 69Gm dish:

dissimilarRange = √(20000000×30000000000) = √(30000000000×20000000) = 774596669 m

This doesn't change based on which side you're viewing.

As to realism: as I mentioned, in real life this isn't how we deal with radio transmissions from spacecraft. But, since we have to suspend that for this mod and others like it to make any sense in the first place, I'll pretend you didn't include the word "realistic" in your question about a progression.

In general I feel like the Kerbin system is too small to get a lot of good diversity in antenna ranges, because it doesn't have enough "outer planets". As you observed, anything that can at least get Jool will also get Eeloo at least sometimes, and by default certainly everything else. Therefore, anything that goes out that far is essentially an "I win" antenna. In my opinion, that's fine: we use "I win" antennas in real life. Antennas that use longer ranges (like your 350Gm antenna) are therefore basically quality-of-life improvements: as a reward for unlocking XYZ tech to get the big 350 Gm dish, you're going to get a bonus on transmission rates for your super-distant probes. That's a tangible benefit in the real world (it literally spends less of your real, actual time), if a bit ethereal within the game.

In general, I feel like the ranges presented in your post on the last page are pretty short on the front end. The reason I extended the ranges on my first two antennæ is because I think we need access to Duna well before Electronics (probably by Electrics) to keep up with Squad's contract system.

For a 5 antenna set, I'd recommend something like this:

• Short range (like my old whip antenna), 5 Mm or less -- Available at (or near) Start
  
• Kerbin SOI (like my old DTS), 81 Mm or less -- Available early (Basic Science might be OK, Survivability might be better)
  
• Inner System, about 37 Gm -- Available by Electrics for access to Duna contracts
  
• Outer System -- Your 90 Gm antenna is probably good for this. Electronics is probably a decent location.
  
• High Speed Comms System -- Extends range to well past Eeloo with a good interior range (low maxPowerFactor) and a higher maxDataFactor. Comes late in the tree -- probably around Adv. Unmanned Tech. Basically a rewarding choice for players who go down the science line first and then need to fill in the rocketry and aerodynamics lines. Definitely an "I win" antenna.

Noted, KerbMav. It's not quite as easy as all that on my end, but the possibility exists.

[Mecripp]

One thing, I don't think you are thing of is that a ground station has more power and can help pull in a signal and yes some say a signal will just keep travelling but still what does it add over stock but just cut alittle range one thing that RT added that this mod is gaining on is adding to sandbox not just career mode you have line of sight now and pretty lines so now you have gain some use in sandbox but not has much in career IMO with the ranges, I see no need for the plugin but for the lines and line of sight for your ranges.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Mecripp2

[toadicus]

MeCripp, what sort of range progression do you think is reasonable, and why?

As I hope my posts recently have shown, I'm willing to add some form of ground station mechanic, but I want to know how to do it in a way that most people will like and that adds to gameplay in some meaningful ways. I'm trying to foster a discussion about that right now.

I'm quite aware of the role that ground stations play in receiving Voyager's communications. The big 64m-70m antennas at the primary DSN locations have gains more than 4 orders of magnitude greater than the antennas on the Voyager probes. Would you want to entertain a set of configs that pairs long ranges on Kerbin's station(s) with shorter ranges on craft antennas (as would be more realistic)? Now that I can support geometric ranges, that's something we can look at.

Edited June 2, 2015 by toadicus

[vardicd]

MeCripp, what sort of range progression do you think is reasonable, and why?

As I hope my posts recently have shown, I'm willing to add some form of ground station mechanic, but I want to know how to do it in a way that most people will like and that adds to gameplay in some meaningful ways. I'm trying to foster a discussion about that right now.

I'm quite aware of the role that ground stations play in receiving Voyager's communications. The big 64m-70m antennas at the primary DSN locations have gains more than 4 orders of magnitude greater than the antennas on the Voyager probes. Would you want to entertain a set of configs that pairs long ranges on Kerbin's station(s) with shorter ranges on craft antennas (as would be more realistic)? Now that I can support geometric ranges, that's something we can look at.

I'm all for more options and versatility, but I really don't want to see this mod go down the RT route. I like this mod because its a simpler alternative.

[toadicus]

vardicd, basically anything I add from this point on will be optional. I wrote this mod because I wanted to a simpler alternative; I won't be requiring levels of complexity similar to RemoteTech without allowing them to be turned off.

Here's a quick example of what I'm talking about as regards using longer ranges on the tracking station and shorter ranges on the antennas. I think this concept might have some merit.

[TABLE][TR][TD][/TD][TD]From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]To↓[/TD][TD][m][/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.11E+07[/TD][TD]5.85E+07[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]4.11E+07[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]5.01E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][TD]5.85E+07[/TD][TD]5.01E+09[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]4.80E+07[/TD][TD]4.80E+06[/TD][TD]4.11E+08[/TD][TD]5.85E+08[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]3.52E+11[/TD][TD]4.11E+08[/TD][TD]3.52E+10[/TD][TD]5.01E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]7.12E+12[/TD][TD]1.85E+09[/TD][TD]1.58E+11[/TD][TD]2.25E+11[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

In this model, most interplanetary communication has to go back to Kerbin; the antennas themselves don't have the gain to communicate with each other at such distance. It gives a varied progression without adding parts, and lets you start small. Ship-to-ship relays between antennas will work fine at distances including all the moons of Jool, so you can built a relay network at Jool using a single transmitter capable of getting back to Kerbin. Whip->whip transmissions are shorter range than they have ever been.

Thoughts?

[vardicd]

vardicd, basically anything I add from this point on will be optional. I wrote this mod because I wanted to a simpler alternative; I won't be requiring levels of complexity similar to RemoteTech without allowing them to be turned off.

Here's a quick example of what I'm talking about as regards using longer ranges on the tracking station and shorter ranges on the antennas. I think this concept might have some merit.

[TABLE][TR][TD][/TD][TD]From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]To↓[/TD][TD][m][/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.11E+07[/TD][TD]5.85E+07[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]4.11E+07[/TD][TD]3.52E+09[/TD][TD]5.01E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][TD]5.85E+07[/TD][TD]5.01E+09[/TD][TD]7.12E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]4.80E+07[/TD][TD]4.80E+06[/TD][TD]4.11E+08[/TD][TD]5.85E+08[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]3.52E+11[/TD][TD]4.11E+08[/TD][TD]3.52E+10[/TD][TD]5.01E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]7.12E+12[/TD][TD]1.85E+09[/TD][TD]1.58E+11[/TD][TD]2.25E+11[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

In this model, most interplanetary communication has to go back to Kerbin; the antennas themselves don't have the gain to communicate with each other at such distance. It gives a varied progression without adding parts, and lets you start small. Ship-to-ship relays between antennas will work fine at distances including all the moons of Jool, so you can built a relay network at Jool using a single transmitter capable of getting back to Kerbin. Whip->whip transmissions are shorter range than they have ever been.

Thoughts?

I don't understand the numbers enough to understand what you're showing... can't help here. sorry.

[toadicus]

vardicd, here's a little more plain-English:

Antenna-to-antenna transmissions would be very limited in range. Whip->whip are basically limited to "low orbit around XYZ" sort of ranges, DTS->DTS would be a bit bigger than the Joolian moon system, and Dish->Dish would be about halfway from Kerbin to the Sun.

Antenna-to-Kerbin transnmissions would be longer range, similar to the current proposed ranges. Whip->Level1TrackingStation would be "high orbit" like it is in the current live version of AntennaRange. DTS->Level1TrackingStation would be big enough to do the whole Kerbin subsystem (and a bit more), and DTS->Level2TrackingStation would go out to Duna. Dish->Level2TrackingStation would get to Dres, but not Jool, and Dish->Level3TrackingStation will get the whole "way past Eeloo" distance that it currently enjoys.

This could then (optionally) be paired with a future ground station mechanic that would make it very relevant where you put your ground stations. If you only had one, and it was at KSC, about half the time your interplanetary probes wouldn't be able to phone home.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I don't understand the numbers enough to understand what you're showing... can't help here. sorry.

Some good numbers to bear in mind: KEO is 2.8e6 meters, Kerbin's SOI is 8.4e7 meters, Jool SOI is 2.4e9, Kerbin-Duna max distance is about 3.5e10, Kerbin-Jool max distance is about 8.6e10, Kerbin-Eeloo max distance is about 1.3e11, Kerbin-Plock (Outer Planets) max distance is about 7e11, and Kerbol-Corbo (StarSystems) max distance is about 1e13.

toadicus's design goal (as I understand it) is to let the level 1 tracking station work with whips out to KEO, DTS-M1 and 88-88 out to the moons; level 2 is needed to allow DTS-M1 to reach Duna, and level 3 is required to let outer solar-system exploration to happen.

Honestly, I don't think this set of ranges distinguishes the 88-88 from the DTS-M1 enough. Maybe you could give the 88-88 enough range to reach Kerbin from Plock by default by kicking its range up an order of magnitude (be sure to coordinate with OPM so you don't accidentally step on each other), and then those of us who don't use OPM (the struggle of 32-bit KSP is real...) get a benefit to data rate.

[vardicd]

vardicd, here's a little more plain-English:

Antenna-to-antenna transmissions would be very limited in range. Whip->whip are basically limited to "low orbit around XYZ" sort of ranges, DTS->DTS would be a bit bigger than the Joolian moon system, and Dish->Dish would be about halfway from Kerbin to the Sun.

Antenna-to-Kerbin transnmissions would be longer range, similar to the current proposed ranges. Whip->Level1TrackingStation would be "high orbit" like it is in the current live version of AntennaRange. DTS->Level1TrackingStation would be big enough to do the whole Kerbin subsystem (and a bit more), and DTS->Level2TrackingStation would go out to Duna. Dish->Level2TrackingStation would get to Dres, but not Jool, and Dish->Level3TrackingStation will get the whole "way past Eeloo" distance that it currently enjoys.

This could then (optionally) be paired with a future ground station mechanic that would make it very relevant where you put your ground stations. If you only had one, and it was at KSC, about half the time your interplanetary probes wouldn't be able to phone home.

I would like this, If there was a mechanic to build ground stations.

[toadicus]

Honestly, I don't think this set of ranges distinguishes the 88-88 from the DTS-M1 enough. Maybe you could give the 88-88 enough range to reach Kerbin from Plock by default by kicking its range up an order of magnitude (be sure to coordinate with OPM so you don't accidentally step on each other), and then those of us who don't use OPM (the struggle of 32-bit KSP is real...) get a benefit to data rate.

I agree with this pretty entirely; T3 and T2 tracking stations also aren't separate enough. The trouble in the stock system is that I don't have a widely disparate set of ranges to cover; Duna->Eeloo isn't even a whole order of magnitude. If early access to Duna is important, it's hard to put more distance between those two without making T3 and the commDish gratutiously large. I don't mind writing a patch to support OPM, though it looks like they've already done so. In any event, that patch may need to change in the next version anyway.

What is the farthest apkelion in OPM? I have the mod installed but have never actually looked, and can't do so currently.

[iDisOrder]

So I'm just one opinion here and I've read back a few pages, just about the start of the ground station idea I think..

and I'd like to say that I originally downloaded this mod as opposed to RemoteTech because this one seems a bit less complicated to me.

(I liked the pretty lines showing me the antenna ranges)

When you guys start typing about newtons, parsecs and your funny little hieroglyphic math symbols... I get migraines

I don't mean to be the old fart on the thread, but can we keep this one simple for us dummies?

or...if you're going to complicate it, at least keep the pretty idiot lines?

Edited June 3, 2015 by iDisOrder
typo

[toadicus]

I've said it a few times before, iDisOrder, but this mod shouldn't ever require more complexity than it does now. The core concept of keeping it simple is still an important one and as you suggest it's a crucial part of what makes this mod necessary and apart from RemoteTech. In general, you should always be able to play with it just the same as you do now.

That doesn't mean I'm not allowed to use math to design it, though.

The range changes I proposed in my last couple of posts is something that might be an "advanced" config, for people who want a little more realism at the expense of a marginal uptick in complexity. On the other hand, I might be able to design it in such a way that "Joe User", on average, won't even notice a difference, while still catering to those who want to see a little more complexity behind the scenes. I'd love not to require anybody (even the "advanced" users) to make install-time difficulty choices.

Something like requiring a connection to KSC instead of any spot on Kerbin, if added, will most definitely always be optional within the context of the game. It's not a mechanic that I want to play with, either, so making it mandatory would be intentionally to my own displeasure.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I agree with this pretty entirely; T3 and T2 tracking stations also aren't separate enough. The trouble in the stock system is that I don't have a widely disparate set of ranges to cover; Duna->Eeloo isn't even a whole order of magnitude. If early access to Duna is important, it's hard to put more distance between those two without making T3 and the commDish gratutiously large. I don't mind writing a patch to support OPM, though it looks like they've already done so. In any event, that patch may need to change in the next version anyway.

What is the farthest apkelion in OPM? I have the mod installed but have never actually looked, and can't do so currently.

Yeah, I guess that's the rub of having the outermost planet at 7 "AU" instead of 40-50. Also, like I said in my post, the furthest distance from the Sun to Plock is 6.75e11 (going by the config values), which adds up to a 6.88e11 max distance from Kerbin if Kerbin is on the opposite side of the Sun. I think Trans-Keptunian has a planet that goes out to 1.35e12 when used with OPM, so that can stand as our ultra-long-distance record -- unless you want to be future-proof for StarSystems at 1e13 or more. (EDIT: In all seriousness, I really want to make a laser-comm part for interstellar communication distances, with a crazy-high data rate factor for in-system use.)

So I'm just one opinion here and I've read back a few pages, just about the start of the ground station idea I think..

and I'd like to say that I originally downloaded this mod as apposed to RemoteTech because this one seems a bit less complicated to me.

(I liked the pretty lines showing me the antenna ranges)

When you guys start typing about newtons, parsecs and your funny little hieroglyphic math symbols... I get migraines

I don't mean to be the old fart on the thread, but can we keep this one simple for us dummies?

or...if you're going to complicate it, at least keep the pretty idiot lines?

Believe it or not, the math is entirely for the purpose of keeping things simple. We want to ensure that antenna ranges happen to fall along intuitive lines, so that each antenna does what it "seems like" it ought to do. In other words, the whip antenna for low-orbit operations (or out to the moons once you've got a level 2 tracking station), the DTS-M1 flat dish for reaching the moons (and inner planets if you've got a level 2 tracking station), and the 88-88 for reaching the outer planets.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Kerbas_ad_astra

[toadicus]

So, even considering OPM, it's hard to separate the DTS and 88-88 enough.

[TABLE][TR][TD][/TD][TD]From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]To↓[/TD][TD][m][/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]3.82E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.96E+07[/TD][TD]1.35E+08[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]3.96E+07[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]1.12E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]3.82E+10[/TD][TD]1.35E+08[/TD][TD]1.12E+10[/TD][TD]3.82E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]4.80E+07[/TD][TD]4.80E+06[/TD][TD]3.96E+08[/TD][TD]1.35E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]3.78E+11[/TD][TD]4.26E+08[/TD][TD]3.52E+10[/TD][TD]1.20E+11[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]1.94E+13[/TD][TD]3.05E+09[/TD][TD]2.52E+11[/TD][TD]8.61E+11[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

Here's a pass that basically says "let's make 88-88 + KSC3 a complete win, and talk to Plock with 88-88 + KSC2":

[TABLE][TR][TD][/TD][TD]From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]To↓[/TD][TD][m][/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]1.95E+12[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]4.80E+05[/TD][TD]3.96E+07[/TD][TD]9.67E+08[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]3.96E+07[/TD][TD]3.27E+09[/TD][TD]7.99E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]1.95E+12[/TD][TD]9.67E+08[/TD][TD]7.99E+10[/TD][TD]1.95E+12[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]4.80E+07[/TD][TD]4.80E+06[/TD][TD]3.96E+08[/TD][TD]9.67E+09[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]3.78E+11[/TD][TD]4.26E+08[/TD][TD]3.52E+10[/TD][TD]8.59E+11[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]3.63E+13[/TD][TD]4.17E+09[/TD][TD]3.44E+11[/TD][TD]8.41E+12[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

In both of these models, DTS + KSC3 is longer range than 88-88 + KSC3 in the current dev build.

In general I think both of these concepts are too much for stock KSP. Can we do something about DTS+KSC2?

Edited June 2, 2015 by toadicus

[John Nowak]

I strongly encourage you and other interested parties to make such cases. I really am very happy to listen and have my mind changed.

"Tedious" is a difficult argument to answer, however the observed fact is that people can and do add things like AntennaRange or TAC Life Support because they do enjoy the problem of working around them. Otherwise, every game would consist of a big red button that says "YOU WIN." In Easy mode, the button presses itself.

That's an obvious point, but I think the more important takeaway is that you won't get many people agreeing on what an appropriate level of challenge is. That's why your mod has an interface that lets you drop the requirement to be in communication when controlling a probe. And of course, you could have a control that lets the player assume Kerbin is covered with antennas.

As for the tedium of ground stations, I honestly don't see it. Of course, I see the interface as

"Build ground station at (Lat, Lon)," maybe with a map if it's fancy. Then the game gives an estimate on how much it will cost, (Big station? Little Station? Oil-rig station?), docks you some kerbucks and that's pretty much the end of your interaction with it. Perhaps an upgrade or scrap feature.

Realism, I think is already sold. In real life, ground stations exist. They are the biggest antennas in the communication network. The ISS isn't always in communication. Soviet / Russian missions ran into difficulties because of this.

So I'd consider it an interesting option.