[1.1.3] AntennaRange 1.11.4 - Enforce and Encourage Antenna Diversity

[DuoDex]

Glad to see Squad acknowledged your hard work on this...even if they didn't actually say any names. We all know that this is AntennaRange getting stocked.

What plans for other plugins (or extensions to this one) do you have?

[makkz]

Hi!

I'm writing a patch for some antennas and I am trying to understand the balancing and the configuration variables you've used.

nominalRange: Best range, up to this range, communications work perfectly fine at the default data rates (or higher?)

maxPowerFactor: After the nominal range, the antenna tries to connect by "boosting" the signal, increasing the power demand and extending the range - when the packets cost more than this multiplier, the antenna is out of range.

maxDataFactor: I don't understand this variable.

So, as far as I understand, a C16 can reach another C16 up to 18K away, at max power. But if one antenna has a higher range, it can communicate with an antenna with a lower range (KSC3 to a C16 would be able to communicate in the entire Kerbin SOI).

Now, specifically, I'm trying to balance this for the RemoteTech dishes and the Outer Planets Mod. In the config file you supplied for OPM, you increase the range of KSC3 to 6000GM. That gives me some strange results:

[TABLE=width: 500]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[TD]Comm 16[/TD]

[TD]DTS[/TD]

[TD]Comm 88[/TD]

[TD]Comm 88 (OPM)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]KSC1[/TD]

[TD]201K (LKO)[/TD]

[TD]119M (Kerbin SOI)[/TD]

[TD]289M (Kerbin SOI+)[/TD]

[TD]451M (Kerbin SOI++)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]KSC2[/TD]

[TD]100M (Kerbin SOI)[/TD]

[TD]59G (Duna)[/TD]

[TD]144G (Eeloo)[/TD]

[TD]225G (Sarnus)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]KSC3[/TD]

[TD]319M (Kerbin SOI+)[/TD]

[TD]188G (Sarnus)[/TD]

[TD]457G (Neidon)[/TD]

[TD]713G (Plock)[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]KSC3 (OPM)[/TD]

[TD]522M (Kerbin SOI++)[/TD]

[TD]327G (Urlum, way past original Eeloo)[/TD]

[TD]792G (Plock and beyond)[/TD]

[TD]1235G (Everywhere)[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

So my first question is: What's the intended scaling here? Should one or more of these variables be reduced? Should the C88 be modified, but KSC not? It seems strange for the DTS to be usable all the way to Urlum.

Second question, what's the intention of the maxPower value? What determines what has a high maxPower while others have a low maxPower? Deep space antennas, should they have a high value? Low?

Thanks

[autumnalequinox]

Malkuth's mission controller found a nice niche after contracts became stock. He/she went on to greater mission diversity and the ability to create custom contracts on the fly in-game. So if you still want to stick around, yea there's definitely always gaps to be filled and new horizons to be crossed.

If all else who else can claim to have made building interplanetary communications networks challenging and fun?! (without the crazy complexity of remote tech)

And thank you! It's great modders like you that make the game truly awesome (especially for peeps like myself that like building/managing over flight simming). I'm glad this is a community where the modders and players work well together, unlike some others where divisions and money has torn them apart.

Edited July 25, 2015 by autumnalequinox

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Hey toadicus, congratulations on making a mod so cool that Squad decided to mimic it! I remember reading somewhere a while ago that KasperVld said AntennaRange was one of his favorite mods, one he couldn't imagine playing without, and I guess they've decided to bring it to everyone.

For those who are looking for some guidance for establishing communication networks, I've put together a ContractConfigurator contract pack to give people contracts to put relay satellites in orbit around all of the bodies in the solar system (planet packs and everything), plus a few extra high-orbit relays around gas giants and such.

[toadicus]

duodex, I'm tossing around an idea for a deep gameplay mod that would introduce AI "opponents" including time-based income and competition for technology grabs (first to a tech gets better contracts sooner, but later arrivals get the tech for cheaper just like in real life) and contracts (the AI opponents could literally snatch contracts you might want, and contract recipes would devalue over time so e.g. "put a sat in an equatorial orbit around Kerbin" will not always be profitable). Still in the design/exploration phase.

makkz, my OPM patch should have results like this:

[TABLE][TR][TD][TABLE][TR][TD][/TD][TD]From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]To↓[/TD][TD][m][/TD][TD]1.80E+04[/TD][TD]6.30E+09[/TD][TD]9.00E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]1.80E+04[/TD][TD]1.80E+04[/TD][TD]1.06E+07[/TD][TD]4.02E+07[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]6.30E+09[/TD][TD]1.06E+07[/TD][TD]6.30E+09[/TD][TD]2.38E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]9.00E+10[/TD][TD]4.02E+07[/TD][TD]2.38E+10[/TD][TD]9.00E+10[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]8.00E+05[/TD][TD]1.20E+05[/TD][TD]7.10E+07[/TD][TD]2.68E+08[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]2.00E+11[/TD][TD]6.00E+07[/TD][TD]3.55E+10[/TD][TD]1.34E+11[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]6.00E+12[/TD][TD]3.29E+08[/TD][TD]1.94E+11[/TD][TD]7.35E+11[/TD][/TR][/TABLE][/TD][TD][TABLE][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD][/TD][TD][/TD][TD][/TD][TD][/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]To↓ From→[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]Comm. 16[/TD][TD]<Kerbin Orbit[/TD][TD]Kerbisynchronous Orbit[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Mun[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]Comms DTS[/TD][TD]Kerbisynchronous Orbit[/TD][TD]Jool's Moons[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Duna @ Transfer[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]Comm. 88-88[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Mun[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Duna @ Transfer[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Jool[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]KSC1[/TD][TD]Low Kerbin Orbit[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Minmus[/TD][TD]Jool's Moons[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]KSC2[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Minmus[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Duna[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Eeloo[/TD][/TR][TR][TD]|[/TD][TD]KSC3[/TD][TD]Jool's Moons[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Eeloo[/TD][TD]Kerbin->Plock[/TD][/TR][/TABLE][/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

Note that I'm referring to stock Eeloo in every case. The Comms DTS comes very early in the progression, so the general concept is that a player will need at least KSC3 or Comm 88-88 before exploring the outer planets is particularly feasible.

autumnalequinox and Kerbas_ad_astra, thanks for your support now and over the last long while. I'm guessing there will be a few holes for AntennaRange to patch, especially if RoverDude doesn't do symmetric ranges. It'll probably still exist, but it'll definitely feel a lot more optional. I should know more about that once I get a 1.1 build.

[makkz]

makkz, my OPM patch should have results like this:

[snip]

Well, given maxTransmitDistance = nominalRange * sqrt(maxPowerFactor) and MaxLinkDistance = sqrt(maxTransmitDistance1 * maxTransmitDistance2), this is what I get with the OPM patch, which modifies both the antenna and KSP3:

ksp3MaxTransmitDistance = 6000000000000 * sqrt(8) = 16970562748477

c88maxTransmitDistance = 22500000000 * sqrt(16) = 90000000000

MaxLinkDistance = sqrt(16970562748477* 90000000000) = 1,235,860,286,344

and for the DTS (which is not modified in the patch)

DTSmaxTransmitDistance = 3150000000 * sqrt(4) = 6300000000

MaxLinkDistance = sqrt(16970562748477* 6300000000) = 326,977,897,288

I think this throws off the balance a bit.

Also, do you have any thoughts on the maxPowerFactor?

edit: Am I doing this right? I'm also getting different values ingame.

edit2: Are the range values in the config files the MaxLinkDistances, not the nominal distances for KSC?

edit3: Seems like they are:

I'm sorry, the ranges in my spreadsheets and configs for the KSCs are actually the maximum ranges, not the nominal ranges. So all of your calculations are high by sqrt(sqrt(8)). That's my bad; I didn't properly inform you about that, and wasn't consistent enough to cover the gap.

Edited July 25, 2015 by makkz

[marrioman13]

How easy would it be to facilitate other mods' antennae (e.g. Tantares)? Do I need to find the specific names of their antennae to be able to add them?

[ModZero]

How easy would it be to facilitate other mods' antennae (e.g. Tantares)? Do I need to find the specific names of their antennae to be able to add them?

Adding one is fairly easy, but balancing it with anything is anything but.

EDIT: to elaborate, there's a .cfg file in AntennaRange, and if you know the name of the antenna (from its cfg) it's trivial to add something - but making something useful and not duplicate is lots more work. The additive ranges I love work intuitively from end users perspective (as long as I'm the user, that is), but coming up with sensible numbers for the config files is painful.

You can still just duplicate something else and live with it - that's what I did with the Asteroid Day antenna, edit2: especially as I'm playing with OPM, which later hacks the stock large antenna.

EDIT3: hey, Toadicus, so it seems the mod will be mostly replicated in 1.1, but it seems we won't get additive ranges. Would you consider maintaining at least that in your mod then?

Edited July 25, 2015 by ModZero

[marrioman13]

The additive ranges I love work intuitively from end users perspective (as long as I'm the user, that is), but coming up with sensible numbers for the config files is painful.

Yeah, I'm trying to set something to have a range of 40Mm, and I'm not sure if it's being scaled (I'm using RSS with S^3), but the simple range does not give me that. It would be nice to make sense of the range, probably an equation. Edited July 29, 2015 by marrioman13

[3MMM]

Please tell me that we can use this to send science between vessels ( sending data from your minmus lander to the research station in kerbin orbit without having to dock to it). That would be VERY helpful.

Cheers,3MMM.

[toadicus]

marrioman13, I have no idea if RSS scales antenna ranges or not. I'm pretty sure they at least provide configs to embiggen the range numbers, but I'm not even 100% sure of that. When you say you want something to have "a range of 40 Mm", you need to be a bit more specific. Are you talking about a legacy "simple" range? If so, that's easy: set simpleRange to 40000000 / sqrt(maxPowerFactor). Are you talking about a current symmetric range? If so, be more specific: 40Mm relative to what receiver? What is the gameplay effect you're trying to create? The symmetric range system is more complicated from a design perspective and really requires you to think about the way you want players to use the antenna, and why they would pick that antenna over another antenna in that circumstance. You can't just say "40 Mm seems like a nice number" and go from there.

3MMM, AntennaRange does not provide any facility to move data between vessels. Depending what 1.1 brings, creature comforts like that may come in the future.

ModZero, I'm doing as much communication with RoverDude as I can (which is tough, because I lack the NDA status to be truly useful), and as soon as I get a 1.1 build I'll start providing as much Real Feedback and collaboration as I can. When I know what AntennaRange will look like after 1.1, I'll certainly tell you all.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

I have made a pull request to add an AntennaRange extension patch to RSS. If NathanKell accepts it, everything will get buffed by 10x, except for the 88-88 and the level 3 tracking station, which get buffed by 100x to reach all the way to Pluto (and a little past).

(I made that PR because I want to update my contract pack to have a patch that adapts the required orbit altitudes for RSS, but that won't do any good unless the antenna ranges themselves get adapted.)

[Caithloki]

I have been having an issue with the mod, while I am not sure if it is an issue. I have the best range antenna and the icon for range is green, it has connection through relay to kerbin. It will say starting transmission but will not transmit all the time. It will transmit one pack of data, say 14% then stop or transmit everything at once. Its really hit and miss. I like the mod but I am confused.

Also, don't know if it matters but they keep mentioning Moving... in the hud, do I need to turn the craft for the larger antenna?

[toadicus]

"Moving" on the antenna parts means that they are trying to animate to open or close. This mod should not be causing them to do that at all; if they're doing that during a transmission something else is probably going on. Can you duplicate the problem without any other mods (feel free to use something like HyperEdit; you don't have to fly a whole mission to reproduce circumstances)?

Edit: None of the antennas need to be turned or aimed in any way for this mod.

Edited August 28, 2015 by toadicus

[Caithloki]

okay so it might be intersteller or remote tech causing the issue? I have all the mods for the engineering tech tree added to my mod roster.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

remote tech

To quote Adam Savage, "Well, there's your problem!" (Probably.) AntennaRange and RemoteTech are both replacements for the stock antenna system, so they can't work together.

If you want to remove RemoteTech and use AntennaRange, but you have RemoteTech antennas on your spacecraft (i.e. they'll vanish if you just delete your RemoteTech folder entirely), you can delete only the DLL and add this patch by MeCripp to your GameData folder to make the RT antennas work with AR modules (though the ranges are not guaranteed to be balanced).

Also, toadicus, it seems that RemoteTech's DLL is just RemoteTech now, so the NEEDS[!RemoteTech2] block isn't doing anything, and changing it to RemoteTech means it can't distinguish between the DLL and the RemoteTech folder. Not sure what to do about this, but it's a thing.

[toadicus]

As Kerbas_ad_astra said, AntennaRange and RemoteTech are specifically incompatible. A few players have had luck converting RT saves to AR saves by using special patches to convert RT parts to AR parts and removing the RT patches and DLLs, but I don't have any experience with that myself. This mod used to turn itself off when it noticed RemoteTech... but I keep forgetting to change RemoteTech's name.

So! I finally remembered to change the name. Next update will properly disable itself when RemoteTech is around.

[Caithloki]

No offence to you and your mod Toadicus, but I guess I will remove antenna range, I have about 20+ crafts for remote tech to allow connections with dishes and such and removing remote tech would make them obsolete. But you have made an awesome mod and I will probably use it in future games when I am not using the engineering tech tree. Thanks for the assistance with finding what was causing the issue.

[toadicus]

Hey folks! Long time no see. I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing with this mod right now, but I do know that I have some updated code and a big ToadicusTools refactor to get out, and it's (well past) time to do something about that. So! Here's a development build with some minor fixes and big under-the-hood changes for ToadicusTools. I consider this build to be a "beta" release.

[zip] [tar.gz] [tar.xz]

I have gone to great lengths to make the refactor of ToadicusTools binary-compatible with the old version, and in general that appears to be the case in all but two spots in VOID. Nevertheless, if you use my other mods and want to use this development build, I strongly recommend you download the dev builds I'm uploading for the others, as well.

CHANGELOG (from 1.10.1)

* Now includes patch for the High Gain Antenna from the AsteroidDay "mod".
* Generally refactored calls to ToadicusTools methods to support the new refactor.
* Bugfix: FlightController no longer tries to use relays on an active vessel that has none.
* Bugfix: Custom part tooltip now manually fetches GUI styles to avoid relying on the editor.
* Bugfix: When used with EVAManager (default), EVA Kerbals now spawn with 0 ElectricCharge to avoid infinite ElectricCharge exploits.
* Bugfix: Outdated patch references to RemoteTech2 changed to RemoteTech.

[djnattyd]

Hey toadicus. Not sure if this is a known issue or one inherent to my install but when I switch off the Additive Range option, all of the antennas (stock and mod) have a range of Zero.

[BudgetHedgehog]

Bugfix: When used with EVAManager (default), EVA Kerbals now spawn with 0 ElectricCharge to avoid infinite ElectricCharge exploits.

How does one get electricity to kerbals then? If you're removing their EC, fair enough, but not including a way to actually generate or transfer EC basically removes the whole point of EVA transmission.

[toadicus]

I haven't seen that myself, djnattyd, but I'll take another look to make sure something odd hasn't crept in and get back to you. Thanks for the report!

ObsessedWithKSP, EVAManager handles "filling" of EVA resources as the EVA part "leaves" the pod. It will automatically fill up to maxAmount (still 100) from the vessel (assuming you have enough there). EVA parts then "empty" their resources back into the ship. This was the previous exploit: remove a Kerbal from the ship. Since their part "magically" has 100 ElectricCharge, the pod doesn't contribute anything. Use some ElectricCharge on the ship. Put the Kerbal back in the ship. It empties its ElectricCharge into the ship, allowing you asource of magical ElectricCharge.

[BudgetHedgehog]

ObsessedWithKSP, EVAManager handles "filling" of EVA resources as the EVA part "leaves" the pod. It will automatically fill up to maxAmount (still 100) from the vessel (assuming you have enough there). EVA parts then "empty" their resources back into the ship. This was the previous exploit: remove a Kerbal from the ship. Since their part "magically" has 100 ElectricCharge, the pod doesn't contribute anything. Use some ElectricCharge on the ship. Put the Kerbal back in the ship. It empties its ElectricCharge into the ship, allowing you asource of magical ElectricCharge.

I see.. so it's like the old EVA fuel mod - take resources from the ship when leaving, put back into ship when boarding. That makes more sense. Cheers

[davidy12]

Do other mods with Antennae work with this? Such as Tantares AIES (current version)?

Edited September 10, 2015 by davidy12

[Gkirmathal]

Hey Toadicus, been using AR for months, really enjoy it and it's immersiveness

But now I'm trying to configure 2 extra antennae, from two separate mods, to use with AR....and this is giving me a true migraine due to the counter intuitiveness of how the ranges are configured (and calculated).

I am not really proficient in math, unless I have clear formulas which clearly correlate to configured variables (in the cfg). But I can't seem to get my head around it, currently I can't see the correlations.

As an example what I'm currently trying to add is an antenna based on the AR mediumDishAntenna configuration, with the following wanted

nominalRange = 40000000000, 40Gm in game nominal range, with a max range in game of 56Gm.

You explained in posts #646 and #785 how AR range configurations should work, but based on those I'm not getting any correct in game ranges.

Could it perhaps be possible clarify how to actually configure an antenna to get a desired in game x Mm/Gm nominal range and in game x Mm/Gm max range?

For me personally what would be intuitive would be, might be highly unrealistic compared to now, what you configure as 'nominalrange = x Mm', is the actual x Mm/Gm what it will be in game and simpleRange/maxRange = idem.

Sorry if my tone might read as being a bit off, I did get an headache by trying to wrap my head around it today

Edit: by trail and error I got figures down to what I wanted to achieve I see that are relation between Power setting and nominal and max range. The correct correctional still unclear though.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Gkirmathal