[WIP] Orbital Manufacturing

[attosecond]

This thread is for anyone interested in the effort to replace/upgrade Orbital Construction (OC) with something more functional, challenging, and fun. I'm calling it Orbital Manufacturing, and the plugin to support this effort is currently under development. Use this thread as a place to post your ideas (I've seen many good ones already) about the features you'd like to see in the successor to OC. Currently planned features include:

1) Modular system of parts: a manufacturing core with add-on extender parts that will allow you to increase the size of the dock.

2) Maximum space-built vessel size is limited by the size/configuration of the dock. Add more extenders (width or length or both) and you can build a bigger ship. For really gargantuan space-built projects (all-in-one station construction, etc), I'm thinking of a set of long truss-like manufacturing center extenders so that we don't have to fudge this restriction.

3) Resource compatibility with OC Redux and Extraplanetary Launchpads (uses RocketParts)

4) Build in orbit (no more Hyperedit-derived teleport from the lauchpad)

5) *tentative* Delayed construction (aka click "build" and you don't get your new ship right away): I've had a lot of requests for this and I think it can be done, but of course my imagination takes over and makes it more complicated than it probably needs to be. I'm thinking of establishing a base construction rate for dry mass at 1 ton/day/Kerbal. Example: the manufacturing core has space for 5 Kerbals, but I only have one in residence, so I only build at a 1 ton/day rate. Fly up 4 more Kerbals and give them quarters in the core, and the rate increases to 5 tons/day. Add more living space with other crew modules filled with Kerbals, and the rate increases again. For the impatient, I'm also thinking you can double the rate for a penalty: your RocketParts expenditure will equal 200% of the vessel dry mass. Maybe I can even add an instantaneous build if you're willing to spend 1000% of the vessel's dry mass in RocketParts tonnage.

Other items I'd like to work out are docking clamps to hold the vessel in place without being officially docked (think KAS connections in the undocked mode) and extendable/retractable umbilicals that WILL form a docked connection to enable resource/Kerbal transfers to the new vessel. Long-term, I'd like to petition Squad to expose methods for switching to a customized editor environment from flight mode. This should be functionally the same as the VAB, but with the current orbital manufacturing center and the real-time view of the celestial body it's orbiting as the texture, instead of the static VAB/SPH textures. These are for later, though. Right now I'm working on items 2,3,4 in the above list. Once I get these mostly working I'll start in on #1.

Contributions: anyone who would like to make a serious effort to contribute to this project is welcome to do so. I'm not a modeller, but thankfully I've had several offers for modelling help. What I'd like to do is get the plugin working to the point where a variety of part models can make use of it: as an example look at how Sperical Launchpads uses the Extraplanetary Launchpads plugin. As soon as I think things are stable enough for you modellers to jump in and start imagining on top of the plugin, I'll let you know and post any requirements you should be aware of _before_ you invest a lot of time. Once I have a functional alpha available I'll push the code up to Github, so if you're more of a coding type you can still pitch in if you're so inclined. Suggestions welcome! Progress update soon...

[sumghai]

I'm interested in pitching in - in fact, as you may be aware, some of my FusTek modules can already be used for OrbitalConstruction and the proposed Orbital Manufacturing (the Warehouse can currently hold RocketParts, and will soon use KASPAR for resupply). I'd also be interested in adapting existing FusTek / making new models for spacedock components.

One thing I would like to see is the ability to "queue" RocketPart consumption:

- Let's say a player has a 100t ship they want to build in orbit

- The player has a spacedock big enough to contain the completed ship, but their warehouses' total RocketPart capacity is 20t (and for some reason they don't plan to add more warehouses)

- The player goes ahead and starts on the 100t ship anyway; the 20t available at the warehouses are immediately consumed for the build

- Through a series of resupply missions, the player restocks the warehouses with RocketParts while the spacedock consumes them

- Once the required 100t total is consumed, the ship is spawned inside the dock

Edited November 5, 2013 by sumghai

[Patupi]

I love the idea of scaling construction speed based on Kerbals in the station... ship? Is there anything against this being mobile? Maybe the construction should be paused if under acceleration? Just a thought.

As to Kerbals -> speed, perhaps a later upgrade would be controller computer cores. This would be advanced tech but would allow manufacturing plants to operate without Kerbals. However I like the idea of Kerbals being useful, including late tech, so perhaps the cores are as efficient as Kerbals are at early tech, but once they are added to a station they also increase Kerbal's efficiency. Thus you still gain from adding Kerbals instead of Computer Cores, as long as you have at least one core.

On the'build when materials not all to hand', I like the concept Sumghai. Perhaps just give a warning when Rocket parts are not sufficient, then use the Parts gradually during constructioin. Maybe something Alarm Clock-ish to warn when an Orbital Manufacting Center is getting low on parts, including the predicted shortfall on the current build. (EDIT: Ack, just realized, it's really awkward to deal with contuously altering 'fuel' rates when not the active vessel. Yeah, perhaps add in partial loads of Rocket parts, then an alarm clock warning when that added material is about to run out)

Edited November 5, 2013 by Patupi

[Patupi]

Oh, and as to helping with the project, I could technically offer modelling skills, but it's been a long time since I did that, and I don't know exactly what it entails to import to KSP through Unity. Since you already have offers for that, and since I also haven't learned C# (know C from a long time ago, but most of my programming skill is in Pascal, Basic or propriatory languages) and so can't aid really in programming the plugin, perhaps writing? If you need any descriptions for parts, naming conventions etc feel free to ask. (EDIT: Oh, and also concept art sketches if you need them. I'm pretty good with a pencil.)

I thought I'd draw something up as an example, and since I don't know what others are already drawing I did a sketch of an inline Manufacturing control computer:

What do you think?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Patupi

[Grease1991]

Oh, and as to helping with the project, I could technically offer modelling skills, but it's been a long time since I did that, and I don't know exactly what it entails to import to KSP through Unity. Since you already have offers for that, and since I also haven't learned C# (know C from a long time ago, but most of my programming skill is in Pascal, Basic or propriatory languages) and so can't aid really in programming the plugin, perhaps writing? If you need any descriptions for parts, naming conventions etc feel free to ask. (EDIT: Oh, and also concept art sketches if you need them. I'm pretty good with a pencil.)

I thought I'd draw something up as an example, and since I don't know what others are already drawing I did a sketch of an inline Manufacturing control computer:

What do you think?

I Like it, maybe you could also draw up a radial one as well, to go along with the that one.

maybe bigger cores for faster builds,

afterthought: maybe we could get UbioZur's help in make these two mods compatible and be able to have a larger truss/bay/pad (s) built from smaller ones but not create massive amounts of parts/lag

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/38577-0-22-UbioZur-Welding-Ltd-2-0-Playtest-3-Now-In-Game-Tool

[Proply]

Personally I would be most interested in an orbital construction mod that simply allows you to detach and rearrange parts manually in EVA; to build a large complex ship in orbit you would send all the parts required up in a series of launches in "storage" form (eg: 20 large solar arrays attached to a small orbital stage) and after rendezvousing in orbit with all the other parts required you would EVA some kerbals, fly over to a part, select and detach it, fly over to another part, and attach the parts together. This would basically be like building a ship in the VAB, but with each part needing to be launched to orbit and manually manoeuvred + assembled in EVA.

[EDIT] Maybe require some kind of heavy EVA exoskeleton/vehicle with cutting/welding tools to enable this, so that you can't just do this anywhere.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Proply

[Patupi]

OK, here's a radial version:

The extensions are so no matter what the clipping between the actual surface of what it attaches to, and the connect point, it should still look good. Of course if the part is shorter than this is tall then those extensions will stick out top and bottom. Maybe round the ends so it looks like piping curling back in to the part?

As to bigger cores, perhaps do the diameter for larger systems? IE, 0.625 is the small add on, 1.25 for medium and 2.5 for large. Or we could base it all off one diameter and increase heights for bigger systems if you want.

I like Proply's idea, though I suspect it might not be doable in KSP right now. But given some of the extreme stuff happening in KSP right now (Real Earth, KMP, etc) maybe I could be wrong. If it isn't possible maybe a graphical variation only? Perhaps during the time it takes to assemble have robot arms push parts into place for assembly. Perhaps even build them alongside the construction part then move them into place. I suspect this too isn't possible, but we can hope.

I didn't know the weld mod could weld parts IN GAME. I thought it was all outside of KSP itself. I'll have to check up on that. Yes, the possibilities of welding parts to a core unit to extend capabilities are fascinating Grease.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Patupi

[sumghai]

Proply's suggestion of EVA-based construction is (partially implemented) in KAS 0.4.x - I've recently done a servicing mission where I rendezvoused a crewed orbital ferry with a satellite I launched in 0.19.x, and got a Kerbal to rip the ISA MapSat dish off and plonk it on the (soon-to-be-destroyed) service module. The logical step, of course, would be for KAS to also use the same snap attachment nodes in the VAB/SPH editor.

That being said, I prefer the Orbital Manufacturing proposal as it cuts down on the tedium involved.

[Patupi]

Dang! I didn't even think of KAS. Honestly I haven't used the 'grab and plug' feature that much in KAS. I'll have to go back and find out what can be removed and placed currently.

[sumghai]

Dang! I didn't even think of KAS. Honestly I haven't used the 'grab and plug' feature that much in KAS. I'll have to go back and find out what can be removed and placed currently.

By default, KAS comes with configs for very small parts like science sensors, solar panels and RCS thrusters. But it can actually be configured for *any* part (although having a Kerbal on EVA carry a Rockomax Jumbo-64 Fuel Tank doesn't really make practical sense)

[Patupi]

Could it be limited to only when something else is connected to the EVA'd Kerbal? IE some kind of exoskeleton that Proply suggested. That would mean two connection points on the Kerbal though. Or maybe a connection on the exoskeleton?

[Yorik]

Since I've got some time on my hands now I'd be interested in helping out with modelling. I really like the sketches earlier in the thread. I could also model drills and converters for rocket parts if someone draws me a sketch.

[Patupi]

I'll see if I can come up with something. Can't right this minute as I'm at work, but I'll sketch something up when I get back. Any constraints on how drills etc mount yet or is this still all up in the air? Radial, stacked with extension?

Also, for a 'convertor' that makes rocket parts is an animation of pistons or something moving (to represent stamping, molding parts etc) viable? I was thinking a standard cylindical thing that opens on the side so the mechanism extends out to function. still got top and bottom connectors, but no radial connectors due to animation... actually, if we're doing something to convert ore to metal, then another to make rocket parts from metal, perhaps use something opening sideways and glowing for a smelter, then use a few small arms facing inwards (you just see the elbows outside) that seem to be working on something within for the parts maker?

Edited November 6, 2013 by Patupi

[Patupi]

OK, a couple of rough sketches (perspective is a little wonky on bits) of a drill, smelter and a rocket part fabricator.

This is a revolver type, similar to the extensions on drill on oil platforms (though automatic). A length extends, then the revolver section rotates, lining up another length of drill which locks to the first. Then it extends that length out and rotates again. Wash, rinse, repeat. The whole assembly hinges up, then slides into it's cover with a hatch plate to protect it.

The smelter is covered in heat tiles, not to protect it but to keep the heat in. Minimizing thermal losses helps in such things. Odd then that there are four gaping holes in the side Just for effect to show when it's working.

The fabricator has an assembly of odd containers at the top representing stages in small, sub-component storage (electronics components like resisters etc in one can, spools of wire in another, small connectable plates in another, etc etc.), then below is an assembly bay using four robot arms to weld it all together. Then out the bottom into whatever rocket part storage you have on the vessel.

(EDIT: After looking at what I drew, I think both the smelter and the fabricator should have wider plates top and bottom to fit into parts roughly the same diameter as their largest section. Should have thought of that when I drew them.)

Edited November 6, 2013 by Patupi

[boberts314]

I am as interested in helping with this as I am unqualified to contribute to it.

[Majiir]

The drill concept looks great! I'll be watching this.

The logical step, of course, would be for KAS to also use the same snap attachment nodes in the VAB/SPH editor.

This is something I'd like to add. Unfortunately, my todo list is long and now spans several mods, but this may not be particularly challenging to implement. Still, assembling a craft with Kerbals could indeed become very tedious.

I wonder if it would be fun to design a ship in the VAB but then require a Kerbal to move all the pieces into place manually. You'd have the benefits of the editor building tools while also having more "realistic" assembly.

[lijat]

What would be really cool (but probably hard to implement) is for the kerbals in orbital shipyard to go eva on their own and move pieces on their own, I guess it is technically possible as the EVA followers mod was possible but probably implementation is to complex to be worth it. I still love the image of lots of kerbals swarming around the ship as it is being built.

[Patupi]

The drill concept looks great! I'll be watching this.

Thanks Majiir. I like how that one came out too, though not too happy with the Smelter. Might give that another look sometime. Maybe it'll look better with the wider top and bottom plates, with the supports coming from between the ceramic plates? On an aside I did get my copy of Milkshape up and running again and had a go at modeling the radial computer core... not so hot (don't have a pic accessible right now). It's been a while since I modeled and I think it shows.

The logical step, of course, would be for KAS to also use the same snap attachment nodes in the VAB/SPH editor.

This is something I'd like to add. Unfortunately, my todo list is long and now spans several mods, but this may not be particularly challenging to implement. Still, assembling a craft with Kerbals could indeed become very tedious.

I wonder if it would be fun to design a ship in the VAB but then require a Kerbal to move all the pieces into place manually. You'd have the benefits of the editor building tools while also having more "realistic" assembly.

I think that would be cool, but I think it should be an option. Could get annoying to have to go through such construction time and again, as you said. Maybe it helps in certain ways to build things like that? Maybe more efficient if slower to build or something? That way it could be skipped if someone would rather just do it through some computerized, 3d printer-ish assembly method that didn't involve manual assembly

Edited November 7, 2013 by Patupi

[sumghai]

Still, assembling a craft with Kerbals could indeed become very tedious.

I wonder if it would be fun to design a ship in the VAB but then require a Kerbal to move all the pieces into place manually. You'd have the benefits of the editor building tools while also having more "realistic" assembly.

I think that would be cool, but I think it should be an option. Could get annoying to have to go through such construction time and again, as you said. Maybe it helps in certain ways to build things like that? Maybe more efficient if slower to build or something? That way it could be skipped if someone would rather just do it through some computerized, 3d printer-ish assembly method that didn't involve manual assembly

Indeed, manual assembly should be an option, and also limited to just adding trusses to space stations. Large vessels would be better off "spawned" via Orbital Manufacturing

What would be really cool (but probably hard to implement) is for the kerbals in orbital shipyard to go eva on their own and move pieces on their own, I guess it is technically possible as the EVA followers mod was possible but probably implementation is to complex to be worth it. I still love the image of lots of kerbals swarming around the ship as it is being built.

I assume the EVA Follower mod makes following Kerbals mimic every move of the active Kerbal, but with a time delay to emulate following.

Autonomous Kerbal operations in EVA would require access to some form of character rigging AVI, pathfinding in a three-dimensional space and traversing along the craft tree to determine which order parts should be placed, as well as issues with large amounts of physics happening as the craft is being built.

Still, definitely a fun idea.

[Patupi]

I've just had a thought. (I know, unbelievable isn't it!)

I've considered before limiting what a non-VAB builder can build in the way of ships before. Size limitation. Mass limitation etc. What about tech node limitation? Is it possible for a device to only build ships with components only from, say, one tier below when the construction device becomes available? That way it can't build itself, and maybe is fairly small. Larger units could build more advanced technology, including the smaller, low tech constructors. It might be a better way to limit construction growth and is at least partially realistic. It would force colonies to rely on older technologies and they'd still have to ship the advanced stuff in from Kerbin.

[boberts314]

The golden ideal, at least in my head, would be to have trusswork and moving gantries with robotic arms putting things into place. Some aspects of which might be doable if your long term plans work out, attosecond. I'm envisioning being able to custom build an assembly area and then have that represented in the editor environment you talked about such that players could add clamps and umbilicals to predesignated points. It seems like one issue you're liable to run into at some point is how to set the extenders up so that they won't limit unusual ship designs, if custom docks were possible they could be a way to pass that on to the player.

I assume the EVA Follower mod makes following Kerbals mimic every move of the active Kerbal, but with a time delay to emulate following.

It was actually based on some sort of simple crowdbased pathfinding logic, with the followers just trying to make their way to the followee while maintaining some space between each other. You're right about the difficulties though. As far as I know it never worked in 3d space, for example.

[attosecond]

One thing I would like to see is the ability to "queue" RocketPart consumption

This can be added in without much fuss when I implement the delayed construction.

As to Kerbals -> speed, perhaps a later upgrade would be controller computer cores. This would be advanced tech but would allow manufacturing plants to operate without Kerbals.)

I'm uncertain about this one... I might need some convincing that an add-on computer module can help make assembly happen faster. My PC, for instance, doesn't help me mow the lawn faster. Perhaps a robot storage facility that still needs 1 Kerbal to program the robots, and can have robots added in the same way Kerbals are added... I don't want to squash any ideas, but I also want to keep it at least somewhat realistic.

What about tech node limitation? Is it possible for a device to only build ships with components only from, say, one tier below when the construction device becomes available? That way it can't build itself, and maybe is fairly small.

Something like this is planned for the first release. I was thinking of hard coding the mod so that manufacturing cores can not be built in space--they must be launched. I've had both yea and nay votes for the ability to build dock extenders in space... these parts will probably be somewhat unwieldy, so in one sense it's reasonable to think that a manufactory could build its own expansion pieces. On the other hand, it'll make it almost too easy to put together a truly monstrous facility. Re other parts in the tech tree (limiting construction to 1 tier down and below), we'd need to find a way to make it work with these custom trees I see bandies about. Some sort of tree crawler code...

The golden ideal, at least in my head, would be to have trusswork and moving gantries with robotic arms putting things into place. Some aspects of which might be doable if your long term plans work out, attosecond. I'm envisioning being able to custom build an assembly area and then have that represented in the editor environment you talked about such that players could add clamps and umbilicals to predesignated points.

Many of the functions exposed in Assembly-CSharp.dll are undocumented, so there's a lot of playing around to figure how things work (or if they work). It would be fantastic to be able to animate something like this and code the back end so that it actually builds any craft you give it... One step along the way is something I thought I might tinker with after I get the delayed construction working: crawling the part tree from the root part and adding each part to the vessel under construction once an appropriate quantity of RocketParts has been consumed. With this, at least you can see the ship appearing piece-by-piece over time, instead of all at once at the end.

Patupi- I like the drill/smelter/RocketParts converter sketches a lot! There's no reason for you to wait for me to get an Orbital Manufacturing alpha out there before you make these parts. There are plenty of people (me, for one) who would love an alternative to the existing auger/smelter/factory included with ExLaunchpads. Put these parts together and release them on their own!

[Autochton]

I'm uncertain about this one... I might need some convincing that an add-on computer module can help make assembly happen faster. My PC, for instance, doesn't help me mow the lawn faster. Perhaps a robot storage facility that still needs 1 Kerbal to program the robots, and can have robots added in the same way Kerbals are added... I don't want to squash any ideas, but I also want to keep it at least somewhat realistic.

Think car factory. A single Kerbal manning the computer and doing percussive hands-on maintenance where needed, plus x number of robotic manufacturing tools. You might even make it so that ship size limits how much benefit is gained from having extra robots. There might be need for processing power to control the robots as well, though that could easily be integrated into the robot part/resource/thing.

Advanced computer tech might enable the facility to be wholly automated, with the computer recognizing and solving maintenance tasks with its own robots.

[gl0ryh0und]

I love where this is all going, but one thing I'm smitten with is the Kerbals doing the construction. Somehow having a whole bunch of robotic construction steals some of the appeal. also robotic assembly in space would be very high tech, I would make it an end game type of technology, Perhaps something to augment the kerbals in the mean time? robotic gantry that gives a bonus to construction speed but which can't build on it's own. have work stations that you can assign Kerbals to, and while they are assigned they float about the ship under construction and when they are near joints you could generate sparks or flashes to give the impression of welding.

Also you could have a part assembly module that is all closed up, and as the part is made the doors open up and take the part to the assembly dock for integration into the main ship.

[Patupi]

Perhaps the first manufacturing plant is manual, kerbals only to run it. Later an automated version is developed, and can be operated by Kerbals or computer cores?

(EDIT; Missed your post Gl0ryh0und. Yeah, I too think that Kerbals doing manufacturing would be cool, and as I said before, even late game I think there should be an advantage to still using Kerbals in automated facilties instead of computer controlled systems. The comps just use electricity and are small (and less messy. SNACKS!) but maybe the automated plant with Kerbals running things is still more efficient than with comps... maybe their AI systems just aren't good enough to cope with anything beyond their programming)

Edited November 8, 2013 by Patupi