(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[700NitroXpress]

Ziv: Alright sounds fine, I do intend on restarting the mission tho because I need to make some ship adjustments.

Edit: Here is my new Jool V transfer stage.

Edited December 14, 2013 by 700NitroXpress

[Mesklin]

Here is last part of report about my Jool-5 expedition:

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Previous 3 parts you can find here:

Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3

[Ziv]

Mesklin: OMG, 12330 Science points????

I never saw more than 9609 points by dawg (actually he didn't post a picture about it) or my 8684 points, so I guess you are the new record holder! (at that time I was checking the forum and the net but didn't find more than 8684)... So I suggest you to link your mission's pictures to those forum topics!

And by the way I congratulate you for finishing the mission, with an additional Duna/Ike landing! I knew you had something in your mind with that refueling! In my second mission Jebediah did the same while going home (but without refueling, but given that very little lander that's not so special). I still have to arrange/upload the pictures for the last part.... so the best is still coming, you will see!

Hm, for the refuel ship, I like the Jet engines for the first stage... I already knew that's a good idea but I haven't tried it yet!

Please tell me which mods did you use? (for the additional information into the hall of fame)

Edited December 14, 2013 by Ziv

[Mesklin]

At the first, about my mods:

1. Clouds and city lights

2. Crew Manifest

3. Editor Extensions

4. Procedural Fairings

5. MechJeb

6. RCS Build Aid

7. SCANsat

8. Tac Fuel Balancer

9. Alarm Clock from Trigger Tech

10. VOID

I earned so many science points because 2 persons in lander (2 surface samples, 2 EVA reports and so on) and I specially planned mission for try to establish science points record. Also Dune and Ike gave me a big bust in science.

And this mission gave me several very good lessons in the ways of fuel economy in deep space , thank you for so interesting challenge.

[Lions]

this can not be possible with a single launch, without mods, without sending more fuel and land on all Jool moons.

[Ziv]

Mesklin: Yeah, awesome attempt, I guess you are the record holder!

Lions: What do you mean?

[Ziv]

Jebediah's big journey continues!

Jebediah: Look guys! I could go to Duna too, on the way home! It would be a really high-speed collision course, but with a low enough aerobrake...

KSC: NO WAY JEB! It would be too dangerous, you could be burnt up or sling away from the Solar System! Going to Duna is prohibited!

Jebediah: look guys, I was calculating and it turned out that it is possible. I have to make the aerobrake at 6000m....

KSC: What? NO! COME HOME NOW!

Jebediah: wait... I'm already on my way into the atmosphere! YEEEHAAAAHHH! Look, I'm on 2690m above the surface going at 2614 m/s! And MORE THAN 15G FORCE! AHH MY EYES!!!

(Bob in the background: This guy is more than crazy....)

...After the very hard aerobraking Jeb went into a highly elliptic orbit, detached with the lander, went into the atmosphere and let it brake him a while, and put down the ultralight lander with ease.

Jebediah: I love this beautiful desolation....

Jebediah: Okay, I'm back in orbit again around Duna. Hey guys, look, I still have 2172 m/s left! Hmm... what if I try a landing on Ike too?

KSC: no comment...

Jebediah: Yep, and here we are! Hello Ike!

...aand touchdown! Jebediah faces the same problem as on Pol after Bop landing without going back to the Mk1 can: he cannot plant a flag, neither get a sample or do a new EVA report...

Okay, time to go back to the ship... Leaving Ike orbit to match the ship's orbit as much as possible

The fuel tanks of the main ship engines and the lander too are almost empty. So rearranging the ship...

Jebediah: Hey, look guys what my lead engineer Ziv designed for me! My Mk1 has it's own engines and it has 2960 m/s on its own! More than enough to get back home! I'm coming!

Jebediah: Byebye main ship and lander... you were awesome! Laythe, Vall, Tylo, Bop, Pol, Dres, Duna, Ike... unbelievable! Take care, stay in orbit, and one day I will come back for you!

Jebediah: Hey guys! After the aerobraking at Kerbin I found out that if I stay in this high elliptic orbit the Mun will come and catch me! So I can land there too. Okay, this mk1 can doesn't have landing gears... but who needs them anyway!?!

Jebediah: This is just beautiful. And I still have 940 m/s to go back. That's a pity that's not more because that way I could go for a Minmus landing... but anyway, let's go home. I hope it will be enough...

ALERT!!! Going to Kerbin would cost at least 348 m/s but the ship has only 292 left! Now what!?!? Jeb was very excited and was thinking about the solution a lot... which is: multiple gravity assist with the Mun! Look at the progress at these pictures: http://imgur.com/a/1EWoP#117

...and at last he managed to return safely. A true hero after landing on 9 worlds, in one launch and without refueling: 1. Laythe, 2. Vall, 3. Tylo, 4. Bop, 5. Pol, 6. Dres, 7. Duna, 8. Ike, 9. Mun! There are 14 bodies in the system. It was almost a Grand Tour! Maybe this ship design needs only a small modification to make all the 14 in one go. Hmmm....

The full story: http://imgur.com/a/1EWoP#0

Edited December 14, 2013 by Ziv

[Kerolyov]

This looks a really interesting challenge and I'm going to enter once 0.23 is out, only question will the challenge still be open bearing in mind the changes in 0.23? If not I'll keep my 0.22 install on my HD and start right away instead.

[Ziv]

Kerolyov: What would be the changes in 0.23? If there's no new moon or something similar then maybe it can be okay too... I want to keep this challenge.

[Lions]

Mesklin: Yeah, awesome attempt, I guess you are the record holder!

Lions: What do you mean?

Well, in order to land on all the moons of Jool, one can not simply do one launch with 100000 fuel and complete the challenge. You need at least some Mechjeb mods , or any mod that helps you. or cheats, or to launch a refueling ship to refuel the lander. i can not see how you get 5 kerbals out to all the moons unless you do that. Or am i being stupid? Because i tried, and failed. ( only tried 1nce )

[Ziv]

Lions: Check the successful contender's pictures and mission logs on the first page here. There are informations about how many launches they used, did they refuel during the trip, what mods were used, etc... you can build your ship in orbit, send refuel missions and use MechJeb (I used MechJeb too but mostly for informations or sometimes maneuver planning, that's all).

I have done this mission twice, first with multiple launches and put the ship together in LKO, and refueled twice during the trip (once when arriving to Jool, and once before Tylo). I was optimizing the mission and the plans for days while building and before going so it wasn't as big as some other participant's ship here but was too big to go without refueling. And I almost didn't make it back from Laythe (I had to use the Moon-orbit Module to catch it in suborbital trajectory) Here are the pictures for the whole trip: http://imgur.com/a/ZCaAu#0

Making a spaceship better is not just about adding more fuel, it's about making it smaller, more simple and most importantly: lighter too. On my second mission I used only one launch and no refueling... but I used an ultralight lander with a command seat only and with 4600+ m/s deltaV which used a very little amount of fuel! So the main ship stayed in orbit between Vall and Tylo and the little lander was more than capable to go to the moons, land and come back for a refuel... (for Laythe and Tylo I used additional specific modules attached to the Lander) and on the way back I was able to land on Dres, Duna, Ike and the Mun too! Without refueling! I didn't cheat, check the pictures : http://imgur.com/a/1EWoP#0

That's why it's cool to go small. I can share the .craft file if somebody wants it but I think one half of the fun is to design your mission and ship before you go. I also left fuel, deltaV and Vessel stats on the screens for all the time so everybody can see the progress and what are the deltaV cost of the different maneuvers.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Ziv

[Lions]

ZIV: I do understand, i know KSP well, I'm just frustrated because I'm trying to do this in one go with one launch and no refueling and i hate mods, so its hard. :'(

Below was my 1st attempt but is a no go :/

Any advice would be great

[700NitroXpress]

Well, in order to land on all the moons of Jool, one can not simply do one launch with 100000 fuel and complete the challenge. You need at least some Mechjeb mods , or any mod that helps you. or cheats, or to launch a refueling ship to refuel the lander. i can not see how you get 5 kerbals out to all the moons unless you do that. Or am i being stupid? Because i tried, and failed. ( only tried 1nce )

Do you mean one launch to mean, one launch from the surface of Kerbin and off to Jool with no docking of multiple parts in space?

If you assemble a ship in orbit, then this challenge is fairly simple, it just takes time.

[Kerolyov]

Kerolyov: What would be the changes in 0.23? If there's no new moon or something similar then maybe it can be okay too... I want to keep this challenge.

Mainly the science no longer being able to get full science by spamming transmissions + the lab module (not that these used directly in this challenge but I guess the science values have been retuned). Other change is the Sabre / Rapier as a possible Laythe ascent engine. So no change in the challenge itself but science points for Jeb level of the challenge may not be comparable.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Kerolyov

[700NitroXpress]

Ziv: Are video entry submissions accepted?

My new and improved Jool V ship is ready for it's voyage out of Kerbin SOI.

I also have a screenshot of the starting stats, part count, and weight.

To get to this point was 8 launches, 1 for the command ship, one for the transfer stage, 4 for the landers, and 2 for refueling.

Edited December 15, 2013 by 700NitroXpress

[mcirish3]

Layth and refueling mission completed stop Vall transfer complete stop Vall lander launched stop Pictures at end of album below stop

Ship part count 793 stop

Edited December 15, 2013 by mcirish3

[quasarrgames]

Does what Enterelysium did in Kerbal Origins count?

[mcirish3]

this can not be possible with a single launch, without mods, without sending more fuel and land on all Jool moons.

I don't see why not, Probably only able to do it with the external seat. but Ziv has shown that it is very possible. Mechjeb is a little more efficient but I bet Ziv's rocket could do it without mechjeb.

For the record I did not use mechjeb. I am using several mods however, but they are mostly because of limitations in KSP and my PC's limitations. I am using joint reinforcement because my PC is too slow and warping can tare my ship part because it miss calculates part locations due to being overloaded.

I have two texture mods to help with frame rate. But I also have the city lights and clouds mod for those impressive visuals. The only actual help aid mods are two nave ball mods. One gives the same direction indicators as the nodes do in map view and also ghosts the pro grad retro grad and node indicators. The other is only activated during docking and indicates the anti parallel relative to the ship being docked to. that is it.

I took six launches to assemble my ship in low Kerbin orbit with a orbital part count of 1200+ you can see my progress so far in the album I posted above. I did have to send a refueling ship but again only because of my slow PC. I had to leave my RCS on for the whole jool transfer because I did not want to baby sit my PC for the 3+ hours it took for the burn since my PC lag was so bad. I did transfer all fuel that made it to Jool but really only needed the RCS because can't dock without it.

Edited December 15, 2013 by mcirish3

[Lions]

Do you mean one launch to mean, one launch from the surface of Kerbin and off to Jool with no docking of multiple parts in space?

If you assemble a ship in orbit, then this challenge is fairly simple, it just takes time.

That is what i mean, and i don't wanna do multiple launches :'(

[SSSPutnik]

Mission update: Mission was scrubbed, found why landers were dropping tanks, hadn't noticed a tank intersecting another part. Discovered during close examination in the VAB.

So... Redesign time... Going to do this!

[mcirish3]

That is what i mean, and i don't wanna do multiple launches :'(

I think it is very doable. I will probably try once I finish my over engineered attempted.

[mcirish3]

I have completed the Vall mission and transferred to Tylo. This is the Keystone part of the mission for me. If this fails the whole mission fails. The Tylo Lander is untested, but has much more delta V than the other landers. Still Tylo is very fuel hungry. I will be lowering my periapsis of my main ship to 10km to counter some of the delta V needed for landing. I still have the very long capture burn to perform so probably will not complete till monday or tuesday night. If not finished by tuesday will try and transfer save to 0.23 since the optimization in 0.23 will speed up the mission considerably. Also this will be that last and one of the biggest reduction in part count I will get. I should be at about 600 parts after this mission. Meaning very little part lag after this mission especially with 0.23 installed if the save will transfer that is... See end of album below for Vall mission and transfer to tylo pics.

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[700NitroXpress]

That is what i mean, and i don't wanna do multiple launches :'(

That can be done, my ship is in the 600 ton range so I know I could launch the whole thing from the surface, but it would be a real pain to rig with struts so it doesn't break apart on the launch pad. You would have to keep the part count under 1500 and that would be hard for such a large ship. Trying to construct one ship and do one launch in this way is inefficient and overly stressful on your computer, so there's no point in doing it this way especially since the rules recommend you build the ship in orbit.

[Ziv]

Does what Enterelysium did in Kerbal Origins count?

What did he do? Hey guys, please link these things to let everybody check what the question is about!

[Ziv]

Lions: do you want just one launch from Kerbin but docking a lot at Jool is okay, or do you want to avoid docking at all?

If the second then you will need a ship with about 4500+26000 m/s altogether... and you should start with Laythe/Tylo and dropping the heavy empty fuel tanks after these landing, and continue to Vall, Bop and Pol with the already smaller lander. At the end you should have something similar as my one-Kerbal mission Mk1 can with fuel+engines on it's side (it had 2960 m/s!) to go back to Kerbin...

Maybe the best to start with Laythe because you can aerobrake/parachute down and you just have to go back to orbit (~3000m/s) while at Tylo you need 6000+ m/s for the landing from a very low orbit too. But this doesn't really make sense in terms of space travel... If you have a given amount of fuel/weight for Tylo landing then why do you want to put that weight down to Laythe and back again? That needs a lot of additional fuel/weight to do that, so your ship becomes bigger. And the same apply to all the landing except the last one... so your ship would be HUGE, even if you would use a command seat only!

This is why I designed my first ship already in three steps:

1. Mothership with a lot of fuel: this needs to be moved to Jool only, and once putting from a Laythe/Vall orbit to a very elliptic Tylo+ orbit... and that's all. No more moving of the huge amount of weight! All the fuel in the big orange tanks can be used for the landings and refueling so this is like a refueling space station.

2. Moon-orbit Module for bringing the lander from the Mothership to orbit around the moons. Why should I bring all the fuel+tanks to the surface and back to orbit what is needed to get to a moon's orbit from the mothership and back? And it can use nukes for better fuel savings.

3. One universal lander with Jets for the first landing (Laythe) what were dropped after ascend. I also used an other lander body for Tylo where the universal lander would not be enough (but the mk1 can was the same from the universal lander).

4. After all the landings the crew and the science modules have to go back to Kerbin... but the big orange tanks were almost empty and I didn't need the lander neither so why should I bring them back? I left them around Jool and brought back the Crew and the science modules with the Moon-orbit Module...

So, this was a sample of fuel/weight optimization which made the mission possible. And after this and my second mission I see some more opportunity to make this kind of mission plan more effective...

Or you can use something similar what Vaebn did with one really universal lander what was the main engine too. This is a really simple and elegant design with a lander and the huge amount of fuel, and that's all! But he used multiple launches and docking too...

It's up to you if you want to go with one giant ship and try landing everywhere without mothership/docking or making it in the optimized way... by the way you made me curious if it is possible with one ship only? This way the planning would be in the opposite way: what little ship do I need to get back from Pol? And what do I have to add for landing at Bop and Vall? And what do I have to add to land and get back from Tylo (that would be huge!)? And how can I put this huge ship down to Laythe and lift back... it will be already a huge ship here. How can you bring that to Jool and finally, how can you launch from Kerbin?

I think it's possible (with a command seat used only) and this sounds like an engineering challenge....! Hm, maybe I'm interested in this "sub-challenge"....!

Edited December 15, 2013 by Ziv