(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Ziv]

Alpheratz: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 mission at Jebediah's Level! This highly modular ship with the "self-moving" engines is AWESOME!!! You had no unused part, that's for sure!

I see you were committed to optimization at the maximum. I also love your lander style with the Mk1 at the bottom... and with the nuclear engines. That's funny you just posted it because there was an ongoing argument about modded parts and their sizes, and a nuclear lander was mentioned for example.

Nice job with Tylo, yeah, that's the key thing why people usually don't use nukes for the landers. But with good fuel/weight ratio (and TWR) it is possible (there was already an other mission with these engines).

You asked about what is not optional, and what SSSPutnik said was very good, that would make it more optimized! My only idea was that you had to dock the engines perfectly aligned or else the ship will rotate. Did you experience that or the ASAS did its job? But I have no idea how to solve this problem... Secondly maybe your landers were a little bit tall which may be hard to land at the hills of Laythe or when slipping sideway at Tylo touchdown. And maybe you could bring less fuel next time, and smaller fuel tanks for the smaller moons, as an idea, but as refueling is acceptable this is only for the real optimization's geeks! So I cannot really say anything, your ship is optimized at a very high level and I also like this approch so enjoyed your entry very much!

Maybe you should try an other level (1-3) next. When I started this challenge I was thinking about launch mass or a point system but my experience is that many people want to make all the points at once and got too stressed somewhere during the planning/flying and give up, and that may destroy the fun of it. And this is already a hard mission to do so I decided to create with 4 levels in a Hall of Fame style, but if it would be a point system then your entry would be somewhere at the top, for sure!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ziv

[Alpheratz]

SSSPutnik, I'm trying to build something like that (asparagus staged) but with slightly more boosters. About 6 more would suffise, but the rocket crumbles on itself on the lauch pad if I add more... I would normally split this into a few launches, but the challenge asks us to try and to it in one shot

Mr.Rocket, that is pretty neat. I'l give it a try

Oh, and on top of the rocket, it's a dummy payload to simulate the mass of my interplanetary jool station, but without the lagg

[Ziv]

kookoo_gr: welcome in the JOOL-5 Challenge, and good luck!

For parts, the jool going ship is almost all stock, will have KAS struts to hold it together. The launchers have some AIES aerospace parts, and some mega struts and larger SRBs from a stock-alike pact, so nothing too cheaty. I just needed to better strut my stuff.

lol Mega struts and larger SRBs could count as cheaty! Even the giant NovaPunch rockets are cheaty if you think about it: stock parts are just not big enough for huge lifter rockets. But anyway, in this challenge the lifter doesn't count much as you can send up the stuff in one or in 10 launches too... and for the main ship going big not always mean it's getting better! Btw I like your JOOL-green painting! Cool stuff!

jacobgong: Welcome you too in the JOOL-5 Challenge! Yes, your ship looks like optimized and not with a dozen of orange tanks! You can refuel if neccessary but I guess you want to avoid it! Why do you have so much science parts by the way?

[zeppelinmage]

Right, so I think I'm almost ready to start my attempt at this. My first Challenge attempt, and of course it is one of the most ambitious choices. I'm going for the Jebediah level.

Mods used: Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Alarm Clock

Here she is, in the VAB, since I have yet to actually launch anything yet.

Only the drive section has been strutted so far - I'll be adding more struts to the landers before launching them. I'm still a n00b at this game; only been playing a month, so any suggestions on how to improve the design would be welcome. (btw, ignore the KER readout and the staging info... most are inaccurate.)

And here are the Landers (including the Science/mini module):

Mini Lander:

Tylo Lander (with science/mini module):

Laythe Lander (with science/mini module):

I realized after this screenie was taken that I had under-estimated the parachute count. So I had to double it.

Some numbers:

Mothership (fully loaded):

DV: 8300

Mass: 492t

TMR: 0.3

Part count: 375

Kerbals: 6 (1x 4-man habitaiton with rotating shifts)

# of planned launches: 7 (maybe 8)

Mini Lander:

DV: 3800

Mass: 6.6t

TWR (Vall): 7.8

Tylo Lander (With mini):

DV: 5100

Mass: 60t

TWR (Tylo): 1.25

Laythe Lander (with mini):

DV: 3900

Mass: 50t

TWR (Laythe): 1.2

The mothership has a little less DV than I wanted, but I plan to shed empty tanks as I drain them, cutting down on my mass. The mini lander doubles as a modular science laboratory, with all the instruments next to the command seat so my pilot can acquire the data to bring back to the mothership. The mini lander will be used for all landings, with additional booster modules for Laythe (plus parachutes) and Tylo.

The "booster" sections will be discarded as I don't have secondary docking capabiliy for them. I'm not sure yet if I'll bring the mini lander back to Kerbin though. Depends on what kind of DV I have for the return burn.

My flight plan specifics depend on where my orbit ends up after Joolian aerocapture. I plan to drop off each lander in low moon orbit, but that depends on how much mothership DV I can save, and how economically I can burn the landers.

I'll, of course, update this as the mission goes on.

[SSSPutnik]

Right, so I think I'm almost ready to start my attempt at this.

Its very... tall.

5100 dV for Tylo lander isn't enough?

[SSSPutnik]

SSSPutnik, I'm trying to build something like that (asparagus staged) but with slightly more boosters. About 6 more would suffise, but the rocket crumbles on itself on the lauch pad if I add more... I would normally split this into a few launches, but the challenge asks us to try and to it in one shot

Fair enough. Are the boosters resting on the launchpad? If not, bury the ship in the VAB so it is when launched.

I had a similar issue, fixed it with horizontal struts at base and top of each tank, connecting to the tanks next door. (Also use cross braces like I see you have around the middle reason).

I think it looks like it can be fixed with moar struts!

[SSSPutnik]

Ziv, can you look at my post regarding Kethane scanners here ?

[zeppelinmage]

Its very... tall.

5100 dV for Tylo lander isn't enough?

Yeah, I was aiming for 6000, but I couldn't get the mass low enough to work. According to the map, I should have enough to just make LTO -> land -> LTO... I can jettison the booster and use the mini lander to finish circularization if needed, and refuel at the mothership.

[Ziv]

Sorry, Ziv, can you reconsider the Kethane scanner rule?

1) It doesn't make the mission easier, harder in fact.

2) Given already accomplished the mission, its incentive to go back and do more. (Kerbal scientists discover Kethane and hope the discovery of Kethane in the Jool system will make future missions cheaper etc). I don't see how it varies from say taking a scansat.

3) My second mission, already underway, has Kethane scanners

It's not just the Kethane scanner but the smaller modded nuke engines and so. But Kethane is definitely don't fit into the concept of the Challenge. I renamed the last category to "MIXED SOLUTIONS (they just wanted to go on their way)" for everybody who wanted to try new ideas and so didn't really fit into the 4 main category, but their mission is definitely worth sharing. In the next 10 days I won't have too much time to manage this challenge but after that I will consider creating a Kethane level too, because that mod is pretty cool and game-changing! I still have to think about the rules for it so don't go too far yet, but if you like Kethane, then be prepared!

Edited January 23, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

zeppelinmage: Welcome here!

I think the basic ideas are okay but my thougts:

1. don't make the main ship too long/tall or it will wobble (may even broke) and will turn VERY slow. Go wider!

2. For Tylo and Laythe I suggest more TWR, 2 at least. That way you will be more fuel efficient and the normal dVs will be enough... if you go with 1.04 - 1.14 TWR then your lander will waste a huge amount of fuel fighting against gravity and so you will need a lot more dV for the same maneuver. I think 5100 m/s won't be enough. Make it as much as you can... you will need it!

3. When parachuting you can use your engines a little before opening the parachutes to slow down under 90-100 m/s or more, and that way less parachutes will be enough (=less mass to carry).

[Alpheratz]

You asked about what is not optional, and what SSSPutnik said was very good, that would make it more optimized! My only idea was that you had to dock the engines perfectly aligned or else the ship will rotate. Did you experience that or the ASAS did its job? But I have no idea how to solve this problem... Secondly maybe your landers were a little bit tall which may be hard to land at the hills of Laythe or when slipping sideway at Tylo touchdown. And maybe you could bring less fuel next time, and smaller fuel tanks for the smaller moons, as an idea, but as refueling is acceptable this is only for the real optimization's geeks! So I cannot really say anything, your ship is optimized at a very high level and I also like this approch so enjoyed your entry very much!

Thanks Ziv Hmmm, for aligning the engines, I used MechJeb, there's a "Force roll" option in the docking autopilot Of course even MechJeb is not precise, but I had five Mk1 and some reaction wheels, so my ship was balanced. I did in fact have some trouble landing on hills. It took more planning than usual. Any ideas on how to get my lander shorter but with the same amount of fuel (I need all of it for Tylo).

To adapt my lander to smaller moons, I just removed most of the fuel before going there. Hmmm... maybe I could remove the middle fuel core and use a structural core? But I'd have to carry it around all the way... What's best?

And yeah, it will be a pleasure to try other levels, this time in a single launch!

Fair enough. Are the boosters resting on the launchpad? If not, bury the ship in the VAB so it is when launched.

I had a similar issue, fixed it with horizontal struts at base and top of each tank, connecting to the tanks next door. (Also use cross braces like I see you have around the middle reason).

I think it looks like it can be fixed with moar struts!

You were right, I added struts and I just got that in a 400km orbit:

Problem solved!

[zeppelinmage]

zeppelinmage: Welcome here!

I think the basic ideas are okay but my thougts:

1. don't make the main ship too long/tall or it will wobble (may even broke) and will turn VERY slow. Go wider!

2. For Tylo and Laythe I suggest more TWR, 2 at least. That way you will be more fuel efficient and the normal dVs will be enough... if you go with 1.04 - 1.14 TWR then your lander will waste a huge amount of fuel fighting against gravity and so you will need a lot more dV for the same maneuver. I think 5100 m/s won't be enough. Make it as much as you can... you will need it!

3. When parachuting you can use your engines a little before opening the parachutes to slow down under 90-100 m/s or more, and that way less parachutes will be enough (=less mass to carry).

Thanks! I won't be launching until this weekend (at least) anyway, so I may do a little redesigning in the meantime.

1: Yeah, I'm afraid of potential wobble... I'm just trying to limit my required launches, especially with the massive amount of orange tanks. My heaviest lifter is 150t, but untested, so I'm not sure if I can go any larger on each section. I tried a radial attachment for the lander parts, but the COM went way to the side.

2: OK, I was using Kerbin as a guide, aiming for 1 < TWR < 1.7... but if you suggest 2, I'll change motors.

3: Well, I wanted to save weight by only taking enough fuel to re-orbit/rendezvous. But I do have a little extra, so I'll probably burn a little to slow the final descent. Either way, the chutes I have are barely enough to land it on those light legs... if I drop chutes, I'm afraid I might need heavier legs which would negate the mass savings.

[SSSPutnik]

6740 dV Tylo lander. Stock Still prefer my modded nuke one though, this one looks so... messy

Whoa 55km orbit land 75 km (circular) ascent with over 1100 dV remaining and that was with me being tardy hitting a stage trigger...

This designs a keeper!

Edited January 23, 2014 by SSSPutnik

[SSSPutnik]

It's not just the Kethane scanner but the smaller modded nuke engines and so. But Kethane is definitely don't fit into the concept of the Challenge. I renamed the last category to "MIXED SOLUTIONS (they just wanted to go on their way)" for everybody who wanted to try new ideas and so didn't really fit into the 4 main category, but their mission is definitely worth sharing. In the next 10 days I won't have too much time to manage this challenge but after that I will consider creating a Kethane level too, because that mod is pretty cool and game-changing! I still have to think about the rules for it so don't go too far yet, but if you like Kethane, then be prepared!

The second mission underway uses stock engines, the only iffy bit is the scanners. Tell ya what, I'll dump the probes, you'll never know they were there The one with the modded nukes is my THIRD mission...

Regarding the challenge overall.

I love this one, it's cool. IMHO though, you should keep the 3 levels, plus the Jeb level, I like the idea of "they did it their way" category too.

There should also be a PURE STOCK level, (with or without flight computers?)

Plus, I consider refuelling cheating, (even though I had to refuel it did really take the shine off the mission for me). Consider a no-refuelling bonus/category/points?

Some sort of points system would be nice without emphasizing it too much.

But you don't want too many categories/points etc or it gets messy... I dunno.

I can't comment on how you do the Kethane mission, never mined a drop in my life, just scanned for it.

Some sort of points system would be nice without emphasizing it too much.

My two cents

[SSSPutnik]

Problem solved!

Awesome! Glad that worked.

[SSSPutnik]

2: OK, I was using Kerbin as a guide, aiming for 1 < TWR < 1.7... but if you suggest 2, I'll change motors.

Yeah what Ziv said, minimum dV for Tylo I found was about 5800. And you need a decent TWR or all that fuel will just make your splash bigger

[Norcurion]

4 launches later my Spaceship is finally waiting for the launch window. But that will have to wait until tomorrow, after hours of watching various Launcher disintegrate for even more various Reasons and docking a giant Pencil I'll have to sleep first

[Mobjack]

Please do tell me if you find something not optimal in my design! I certainly wish to better myself on my next attempt! (Ok, the 8 nuclear engines at the back of the ship are too much )

I really can't find any flaws with that design even with the 8 engines. I like how everything was modular.

How steady did the ship run when everything was attached?

[Mobjack]

I managed to land on every moon at the same time around Jool.

But look at the mess I have to put together. Two ships are on empty and two others are going in the wrong direction. I must have made a miscalculation somewhere.

I still have to pick up my lander from Tylo too. It had enough dV to reach Vall on its own, but not enough thrust. I will send a small lander to pick it up.

[Mobjack]

The second mission underway uses stock engines, the only iffy bit is the scanners. Tell ya what, I'll dump the probes, you'll never know they were there The one with the modded nukes is my THIRD mission...

Regarding the challenge overall.

I love this one, it's cool. IMHO though, you should keep the 3 levels, plus the Jeb level, I like the idea of "they did it their way" category too.

There should also be a PURE STOCK level, (with or without flight computers?)

Plus, I consider refuelling cheating, (even though I had to refuel it did really take the shine off the mission for me). Consider a no-refuelling bonus/category/points?

Some sort of points system would be nice without emphasizing it too much.

But you don't want too many categories/points etc or it gets messy... I dunno.

I can't comment on how you do the Kethane mission, never mined a drop in my life, just scanned for it.

Some sort of points system would be nice without emphasizing it too much.

My two cents

I really don't think a point system is necessary. I think completing the challenge is an accomplishment in itself and I like seeing how everyone achieved it in different ways.

I do agree that that the refueling is kind of cheap for warranting a Jebediah level. Maybe it should be a Bob or Bill level, but it is too late to change it now.

I also see no problems with the Kethane scanner since it will just hurt your performance, but it is Ziv's call.

[SSSPutnik]

I really don't think a point system is necessary. I think completing the challenge is an accomplishment in itself and I like seeing how everyone achieved it in different ways.

I do agree that that the refuelling is kind of cheap for warranting a Jebediah level. Maybe it should be a Bob or Bill level, but it is too late to change it now.

I also see no problems with the Kethane scanner since it will just hurt your performance, but it is Ziv's call.

Yeah drop the points idea. Agree with your refuelling comment. I ended up needing to and I felt like I had cheated all the time after that. (If the entire premise is based on the fact its a "one shot" cheap mission, sending a refuelling mission would blow your budget big time. I see this as far worse than using odd shaped engines etc. (I can whip a stock Tylo capable lander up easy, I just use the mod parts mostly for looks).

Agreed, Ziv's challenge, his rules. I am getting to point of wanting to try Moho now though...

[SSSPutnik]

But look at the mess I have to put together. Two ships are on empty and two others are going in the wrong direction. I must have made a miscalculation somewhere.

Ouch, orbiting in wrong direction eats deltaV to fix... I did this around Tylo by mistake. Ended up easiest was to leave SoI and then dock.

[SSSPutnik]

4 launches later my Spaceship is finally waiting for the launch window. But that will have to wait until tomorrow, after hours of watching various Launcher disintegrate for even more various Reasons and docking a giant Pencil I'll have to sleep first

http://i.imgur.com/8JcwezF.jpg

Nice, very clean design. Does it wobble badly under thrust?

[Kasuha]

Oh, and if anyone could give me a reliable lifter to put 200t onto orbit, I'd appreciate! I am struggling with structural integrity...

This wasn't quite 200 t (160 actually) but with a few more boosters or more efficient engines (these were all mainsails) and a little reorganization on your side and they may fit together nicely.

The ship was hanging down from the lifting part in the middle of it, all decouplers were attached at the top and struts were also diagonal towards the top but horizontal in the middle and at the bottom. It worked quite nicely.

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[kookoo_gr]

One question. The lander can, can it store all the surface samples, EVA reports etc from all the planets or do i need a separate can for each planet?

Also a few tips i found during the building of my ship.

1. If you don't want excess weight on your ship but it is necessary when sending/docking a module on your ship use radial decouplers. At my Vall lander i don't want any RCS thrusters in order to save weight but they are necessary for docking.

2. For quick docking from launch with very little time to waste, send your parts at 85-87 km. when waiting for launch, time warp until your ship reaches the east desert cape, it's the last piece of land before the KSC continent. Launch the rocket and aim for a pe of 85-87km and you'll have an encounter at about 20-40km

Also i would like your opinion for the last crew to send at my Joll 5 mothership from the current available Kerbals. I just can't decide which one i should send

Edited January 23, 2014 by kookoo_gr