[CLOSED] Kerbin and Beyond: a Maturing Space Program

Northstar1989 · November 26, 2013

OK,

So, in super-short, I've been back to working on Duna planes again- mainly to try and design a winner for the "Flying Duna" challenge while I pass a bit of the game-time until my Duna Flotilla arrives at its destination; but also mainly to develop my skills in designing planes that will work on the little red planet. My eventual goal is to design and build some sort of strategic heavy-lifter plane that can fly on Duna purely on thermal turbojets or electric propellers...

Here's my latest attempt at a SSTDABK spaceplane I'd been working on as part of that, by the way. I call her, the 'Blackhawk Mk2'

At this point I've designed an entire fleet of Duna-capable planes. It took a lot of work, and it'd be a shame to lose them all if my computer crashed or something: so I'm going to post a craft file thread with my entire fleet for anyone who wants the files soon... Remind me to post a link to that here if I forget to...

Regards,

Northstar

Geschosskopf · November 26, 2013

Good luck when they get to Duna.

Northstar1989 · November 27, 2013

Doesn't look like any of my spaceplane attempts can make it to Duna on their own power yet...

I'll probably have to wait on developing some more advanced tech nodes- with the Fusion Power tech, I should be able to replace the level-2 fission reactors I've been using with either level-3 fissions reactors, or even more powerful still fusion reactors (their reactor fuel doesn't last nearly as long though- and can't be produced locally on Duna, unlike fission reactor fuels). Either one of those should enable my spaceplanes to reach a high enough cruising altitude on Kerbin to make orbit with their ascent packages (which are pretty heavy- and reduce the craft's altitude ceiling by a great deal- further raising their required weight. It's a curve I can't get far enough ahead of with a reasonable part-count without better TWR thermal turbojets- which I will have with better tech nodes.)

I *DID* look at using a standard, oxygen-breathing turbojet to reach a sufficiently high cruising altitude on Kerbin to allow the ascent packages to bring it into orbit. The problem with that idea though, is that it requires a lot of complexity in the craft- three separate propulsion systems in fact. One for flying on Duna, based on thermal turbojets; one for reaching high cruising altitude on Kerbin, based on oxygen-breathing jets (which are more powerful); and a third, rocket-powered ascent package to finally push the craft into orbit, and allow it to navigate to Duna without a separate transfer stage.

I designed a vessel that could do all of this (I called her the 'DART'- Duna Advanced Recon Turbojet), and still carry 12 passengers, but her part count was in something like the low-90's; and with 10 of those parts being engines and 8 of them being intakes, my computer was completely lagging out trying to fly it. That design also had huge stability problems, due to all the weight at the tail-end (my Blackhawk designs did too- but I was able to somewhat manage that by creating a second deck of wings that extended over the engines and moved back the center of lift, in my later variants...)

Speaking of which- here's the latest in my Blackhawk line of planes, for all those who missed it on the Flying Duna thread. I call her the 'Blackhawk-Mk3", or Blackhawk-3 for short. The Mk2 actually had a really high part-count and some serious stability issues, so that was a failed design in the end- making this my second FUNCTIONAL design, since the Mk1:

I also developed an offshoot-variant of the Blackhawks I called the 'Bluejay', earlier, from my Mk1 airframe. Unlike the Blackhawk designs though, which were built to be spaceplanes- and have heavy integrated ascent packages and LFO loads that greatly reduce their altitude ceiling- this was a design meant to be carried to Duna by-rocket. It's also probably at about the absolute maximum size for what I could conceivably send to Duna that way- anything larger would crash my computer from the part-counts of having 2 of them loaded (as is, I would probably attach two in 2x symmetry, but then detach one copy from the rocket after reaching orbit to decrease lag and increase the Delta-V budget of the transfer stage, like I did with the damaged copy of the paired Eagle Mk'2 before...)

The Bluejay has a maximum cruising altitude of about 29,000 meters on Kerbin. She features crew capacity for 12, and can cruise at about 964 m/s on Kerbin. Due to the decreased gravity and planetary radius of Duna, I estimate she could reach velocities capable of ejecting her from the atmosphere in high-altitude flight: much like I expect of the Eagle Mk2 when it makes Duna... This isn't due to high-thrust (the thrust levels are in fact very low) but low drag due to high altitude ceiling...

I also learned recently that at a later tech node I will unlock at upgrade to the standard thermal turbojets I've been using (KSP Interstellar automatically replaces the basic version with the upgrades in the VAB/SPH editor once I unlock the node). The better version is called 'Hybrid Turbojets', and allows me to pass fuel through it much like a thermal rocket nozzle in addition to their normal atmosphere-breathing mode- which will greatly improve the ease with which I build Duna-capable spaceplanes. I think they also get a little better thrust or ISP than standard thermal tubojets- though don't quote me on that...

Combined with more advanced reactor types that will increase the tubojet thrust, I can expect I will be able to simply retrofit my existing Duna plane models with the Hybrid Turbojets and better reactors, and instantly convert some of them into Single Stage to Duna and Back to Kerbin capable spaceplanes...

Edited December 1, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 1, 2013

For those interested, the Blackhawk Mk5:

My first suborbital thermal turbojet design- and very close to a full-on spaceplane- but the trade-offs for it were significant (don't get me started on the "balance" of KSP Interstallar mod. It's quite balanced BEFORE you discover Fusion Power... The mod seems to buy into the popular, yet completely false, idea that controlled fusion would still be a drastic improvement over fission in its very early and unrefined stages...) Her altitude ceiling is only 10,000 meters on Kerbin when fully loaded with fuel (at least twice that when empty), and her crew capacity was dropped from 13 down to 2...

And, the design is still only suborbital... Though I think all I need to fix that is a little better TWR...

Northstar1989 · December 1, 2013

I don't mean to make this into a spaceplane-thread, but I proudly present the Blackhawk Mk-6:

This is my first SSTDABK-capable spaceplane: quite an impressive feat for a plane with almost unlimited flying time without refueling on Duna if you ask me... It turns out I didn't need Fusion Power to build such a craft- I just needed a VERY high fuel-fraction (even higher than the Blackhakw Mk5). As is, the craft can only cruise at a maximum altitude of 8435 meters on Kerbin when fully-fueled. Of course, it can fly MUCH higher without all that heavy LFO, so it should be capable of performing quite well at low and medium altitudes on Duna- provided I don't try and fly around there with full fuel tanks of rocket fuel...

Given its low altitude ceiling, I was almost better-off just using electric propellers (which could provide the same thrust at much lower weight at such a low altitude)- but propellers don't contribute nearly as much thrust on the climb out of Kerbin orbit before the air becomes too thin for them to work correctly... Nor will they work nearly as well at the relatively higher altitudes the plane should be capable of cruising at on Kerbin or Duna when her fuel tanks are empty...

Edited December 1, 2013 by Northstar1989

Specialist290 · December 1, 2013

I like it. Looks like a very classy spaceplane there

Northstar1989 · December 2, 2013

Thanks. Here are some nice images of my refueling mission to it:

I had to develop an entirely new heavier line of fuel tanker just to carry up enough fuel to refuel the thing (my previous LFO-tanker designs could only carry up about 4000 units LiquidFuel + corresponding Oxidizer). It's still not done yet, but I did manage to get up one of my test flights into orbit to refuel the thing, despite some problems with control (you might notice the tanker is tilting slightly retrograde only a short distance off the launchpad) and damage it suffered during stage separation...

You might also notice that the uppermost stage is missing its three LV-N nuclear engines in the later pictures. That was because they popped off the moment I detached the final stage- apparently due to clipping issues, as they weren't close enough to the decoupler for the decoupler-force to impact them... It still had its three Inline Fusion NERVA engines though, so I still managed to circularize the orbit and rendezvous with the spaceplane, as can be seen...

The LFO-tanker carried a lot more fuel than the spaceplane alone needed, however- I didn't want to possibly have to develop even heavier models in the future. So, it will be hauling the rest of its fuel to the LFO depot at 350,000 meters fairly soon... In the meantime, I have a few more test-flights to launch to better refine the LFO-tanker design (any copies that make it to orbit, I'll keep of course- why go through the effort of launching all over again with an only slightly improved version?)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 2, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 2, 2013

Alright, here's an album of the launch of the final version of my Heavy LFO Tanker. This particular one will be used to refuel the Early Spacedock once it reaches Munar orbit. In the future, I will be performing a lot of near-Kerbin refueling missions using this version (I prefer fewer, heavier launches, to lots of small ones)- and fewer with the Medium LFO Tanker design (which doesn't feature nuclear engines, and so has an even shorter range). I suppose I might also build an even heavier and longer-range variant, for sending tankers to Jool and such, that would be unmanned and designed for in-orbit construction- but for now this is what I'll be working with.

Also, don't expect to see images of every stage of my refueling missions from here on- I'm going to generally keep it to one or two images per tanker launch, or none at all, in the interests of keeping the picture clutter on my Imgur account from getting any more out-of-hand.

One more thing. I hope you haven't all forgotten my Duna flotilla now? Well it turns out it's going to face a few technical difficulties when it arrives at Duna...

The biggest issue is that when NearFuture mod updated to 0.30, they swapped their built-in radiators on all their reactors for ones you have to attach manually to the reactor surface- which seems completely pointless and a waste of part-count to me. It also creates the MAJOR issue of breaking all previous designs that utilized NearFuture reactors with the built-in reactors. Since I updated my NearFuture mod to 0.30 today, that affects my Duna flotilla as well...

It's not an issue that's going to doom my manned vessels (the Duna Science Module and Dune Crew Module)- though it will drastically reduce their available electricity for maneuvering. However it WILL lead to my Duna Heavy Equipment Platform, which is unmanned, running out of electricity rather soon after I next load it- which means I will need to keep it unloaded except for when actively executing the capture burns- and it will lose power shortly after entering stable Duna orbit...

I know exploiting the game's loading/unloading mechanics to keep an unmanned vessel running without a source of electricity is a bit, err, questionable, most of the time. But so is a vessel with a big, heavy nuclear reactor for power that I painstakingly lifted to orbit, suddenly losing its built-in radiators for no reason (except the guys at NearFuture playing cheap copycats of KSP Interstellar mod's reactor heat and fueling mechanics- and doing a bad job of it at that- for instance, their new reactor fuel HAS NO MASS!) - so we'll all have to grimace and bear it this time around...

Much more nonsense like this form NearFuture, though, and I'm just going to stop updating that mod. It's already broken enough as-is with their terrible nuclear reactor power:mass ratios. I know some people think the ratios in KSP Interstellar (its main competitor) are OP'd and unrealistic (they're actually quite accurate, by the way, at least until Fusion Power) but the guys at NearFuture don't seem to understand that a NUCLEAR REACTOR HAS *ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE* BETTER POWER DENSITY THAN A SOLAR PANEL!

Instead, they implement these weak little reactors that barely beat out OX-STAT panels (when facing the sun) on a mass-power-ratio basis; and then actually nerf them by removing their built-in radiators and requiring separate radiators (and higher total part-count and mass) just to keep the reactors operational. Oh, and they add reactor fuel consumption as well- but manage to make the new fuel mass-less, and instead make it so all the weight of the fuel is reflected in the mass of the container you carry it in... As if their existing fuel weights weren't already far enough off the mark (I mean, they do realize Argon is a DENSER element than Hydrogen or Oxygen, aka. the likely components of LFO-mix, right? And it can easily be stored in liquid form, like LFO mix, or even solid form- its melting point being not much lower than Oxygen's boiling point...)

Honestly, the only reason I keep that silly mod installed is because (1) their smallest reactors are still less massive than KSP Interstellar's smallest reactors (good for ships with low power requirements that can't get by on solar or RTG's) and (2) The mod has a giant solar array ('Megalador' Solar Array)- which is useful for bringing down part-count on my KSP Interstellar Microwave Power Stations...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 2, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 3, 2013

I decided the best place to send the Blackhawk Mk6 off from would be from orbit of the Mun (it will allow me to correctly angle at Duna, and perform a sort of modified gravity slingshot around Kerbin- with a long ejection burn at periapsis). I need every bit of velocity I can get, considering how far Duna is from the ideal transfer window. I've also been meaning to get my Early Spacedock out there- to set up a permanent outpost on the Mun- and maybe launch an additional supply ship towards Duna from there (considering the electrical problems with the Duna Heavy Equipment Deployment Platform, thanks to the NearFuture update...)

So, I got my Heavy Scrapper Ship busy draining the fuel from an old piece of debris that still had a bunch of fuel left in it for some reason... I had bad lag issues, so I got distracted, and forgot to take some pics while I was docked with the debris (the Scrapper Ship carries an extra KAS connector for attachment to debris that still have useful resources- think of it as the Kerbal drilling through the hull- though it was unnecessary in this case, since the debris already had a radial connector port on it), but there is one image of the fuel tank on approach at least:

After filling the Early Spacedock's LiquidFuel tanks close to full, I decided to start repositioning it towards the Mun, rather than make additional runs that could mostly only add Oxidizer to its fuel tanks (the Scrapper Ship is waiting for a transfer window to begin moving the rest of the fuel to the Orbital Resupply Depot at 350,000 meters as I speak)

And finally, somewhere in between (actually a little before) all this, my Kerbals found time to launch a new line of advanced probe from Kerbin's surface, destined for the Jool system. It's currently on an intercept course for Duna- since it carries some new instruments that would be useful for a flyby there- like a Kethane Detector and a Gamma Ray Detector (used to find KSP Interstellar radioactive fuels- as uranium reprocessing is now no longer 100% efficient, and a lot more complex than before. I think it also produces some Science Points). The idea is to perform a gravity assist off Duna (and maybe Ike too) and then head off for Dres (for another flyby and gravity assist) if possible, or straight for the Jool system... It's equipped with parachutes, atmosphere sensors, and seismic sensors- so its last act will probably be to land on Laythe...

As you might notice, the launch vehicle was fairly small- but made use of some rather large winglets, to reduce its Delta-V expenditures and ideal TWR to orbit (it's something of a hybrid of a spaceplane and a rocket- though it launches upright, and doesn't have enough lift or burn-time for quite as prolonged atmospheric flight)

At the end, you can see it finishing up its ejection burn from the Kerbin system (it had more than enough TWR to do this straight from low Kerbin orbit with just a NearFuture inline NERVA engine, since its overall weight was quite low... I forgot about that part on my previous rant- it's probably the only truly useful part in the whole mod besides the Megalador solar panel array- though the final stage of the probe does make use of an ArgonGas propulsion system...)

Edited December 3, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 10, 2013

OK, so I've been sitting on this update for a while, but I got busy with real-life stuff and forgot to post it...

Not a ton to report really, but I launched another, even longer-range version of the Argon Probe (I can't remember all the refinements to the design, but if you look carefully you'll notice this version has a couple extra fuel tanks built into the booster stage...) Mainly, I just wanted to give you guys (if anyone is reading this) a better set of images of the launch and whatnot, and close-ups of the probe section- but I also wanted to make sure I could hit Dres, all Jool's moons, and the Sentar system (from Krag's Planet Factory)- and even with its insane Delta-V budget, I'm not sure just one probe could accomplish all that...

Enjoy:

Regards,

Northstar

Specialist290 · December 10, 2013

Sounds like a very ambitious mission plan there. Here's hoping for the best.

Northstar1989 · December 10, 2013

Thanks. I appreciate it.

In gratitude, here's a quick mini-update (I've currently got the game running the background). I'm sending the Blackhawk Mk6 to high Munar orbit as I speak, where it will rendezvous with the Early Spacedock, or a tanker (depending on how the burn goes- and if the Blackhawk Mk6 experiences less lag near the Mun. Right now its lag is too crippling near Kerbin to even consider bringing it within loading distance of the Spacedock) to top off its fuel supplies one last time, before engaging in maneuvers to set it on a transfer orbit to Duna:

Regards,

Northstar

P.S. I think I've narrowed down the cause of the Blackhawk's lag issues to having a lot of control surfaces in vacuum... (the surfaces still move as if trying to maneuver the plane) My spaceplanes typically experiences MUCH MORE lag in space than they do in the upper atmosphere. The Blackhawk Mk6 has quite a few (eight) control surfaces, as you can see...

Edited December 10, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 10, 2013

OK, another update- but this one on the Early Spacedock (I'm going to be piecing this out into a bunch of posts because I've got simultaneous Munar transfers going on for both the Early Spacedock and the Blackhawk Mk6- as it just so happened, their transfer windows fell very close to each other).

Previously, I maneuvered the Early Spacedock into a highly elliptical orbit around Kerbin to place it on a transfer orbit to the Mun the next time around- due to its low TWR. Here's the orbital map just before initiating the second part of the transfer maneuver:

The Early Spacedock is equipped with a 3.75 meter Thermal Rocket Nozzle- powered by a 3.75 meter KSP Interstellar molten sodium fission reactor (which also doubles as an overpowered electrical source with its coupled 3.75 meter electrical generator- which I used in preference to a smaller diameter to avoid possible stability issues. Remember the entire craft was launched vertically from the Launchpad on Kerbin...) I feel the need to point this out, because it contributes to an interesting quirk when MechJeb tries to calculate remaining Delta-V in the craft. See if you can't spot it in the album images below:

Some of you with a careful eye for detail might have noticed that the calculated Delta-V actually INCREASES (by quite a lot) from the first screenshots to the later ones. I'm not cheating or anything- that's for two reasons:

The first is because the Thermal Rocket Nozzle is capable of two propellant settings: LFO mode, and LiquidFuel-only mod. No, these modes aren't for vacuum vs. atmospheric use (actually, the LFO mod works better in the atmosphere, for reasons following)- the reactor superheats the propellants and spits them out the back at high speeds using its thermal energy either way (it is NOT an air-breathing system). The difference, as I understand it, is that in LFO mode the LiquidFuel is allowed to combust with the Oxidizer at some point in the propulsion process- for additional thrust but reduced ISP- whereas in LiquidFuel-only mode the LiquidFuel (KSP Interstellar assumes it to be liquid hydrogen) is only superheated and expelled-without combustion; for approximately one-third better ISP (about 800 rather than 600- on par with a stock NERVA, but with far inferior TWR), but only half the thrust.

Now, obviously, the LFO mode is superior to the LiquidFuel-only mode if you need to achieve high thrust for optimal performance (such as during a high-Delta-V burn, or when taking off from the surface of a planet). It's also useful if you have a cheap and unlimited source of Oxidizer (such as I hoped my atmospheric-scoop ship would provide, before I discovered that the technology is woefully inadequate to the task... And some people call KSP Interstellar "overpowered". Hah...), since you essentially get over 50% more Delta-V per ton of LiquidFuel (and better thrust) if you combine it with Oxidizer... However, when you're trying to get a craft as far as possible on a given weight in fuel, LiquidFuel-only mode is the better option...

Anyways, tangent to explain the technology aside, the Early Spacedock carried a SMALL amount of Oxidizer on board (salvaged by my scrapper ships from one of the direlict hulks orbiting Kerbin, that still happened to have some LFO mix left in it when it was decoupled from the main vessel...), and a much greater quantity of LiquidFuel.

So, as a result, I started the engine in LFO-mode, until I had burned up all my Oxidizer (ALWAYS burn up your lower-ISP fuel first, if you're already in orbit and trying to get the most Delta-V out of a craft. For mathematical reasons I don't care to explain right now, you'll get a lot further that way...), at which point I switched the Early Spacedock to LiquidFuel-only mode, to perform the remaining majority of the burn.

The result of all this was, MechJeb calculated Delta-V separately for each fuel-mode of the engine: and as a result, it calculated I had a much GREATER quantity of Delta-V available after I switched fuel mode.

This wasn't the only thing going on, of course. I also ran into issues with Fuel-Crossfeed not working properly- so I had to use TAC Fuel Balancer to keep transferring LiquidFuel from the peripheral fuel tanks (the ones attached by girder segments near the engines) to the main one (the fuel tank on the opposite side of the craft from the engines) even though the "peripheral" tanks were in fact closer to the engines, and the only additional parts they had in between were one XL-girder segment each... This also resulted in apparent "increases" in my total Delta-V: as MechJeb could only calculate Delta-V from the fuel immediately available to the rocket engine, and as the craft's overall weight came down, the amount of Delta-V that the LiquidFuel in the main tank (always full- due to TAC Fuel Balancer refilling it from the peripheral tanks) could be used for constantly increased...

Anyways, I hope you're all satisfied I wasn't cheating or anything (this is especially important this time, as this is also part of my challenge run for the "Flying Duna" challenge, since the Balckhawk Mk6 meets all the challenge's requirements for an SSTDABK craft...)- the Early Spacedock's overall Delta-V definitely WAS decreasing as it progressed through its burn- only MechJeb wasn't capable of calculating this correctly due to the issues mentioned above...

The Early Spacedock is currently on an intercept with the Mun. The orbital map was doing something screwy where it kept bouncing around in showing the (rather distant) intercept- which isn't about to smash into the Mun or anything (I don't THINK- the velocity difference when it reaches the Mun's SOI *should* be enough to avoid a collision, if I made the burn half as accurately as I hoped...), so really leaves me quite in the dark as to what was going on... Regardless, I'm going to be making a couple adjustment burns on the way (look for them in the next post on the Early Spacedock), and soon the Early Spacedock will arrive in the Mun's SOI, perform a capture burn, and then adjust its position to where I figure out I want the upgraded spacedock (lower part-count, less Dry Mass uselessly allocated to structural supports that aren't needed anymore for a non-mobile permanent space station, a less overpowered and lighter electrical system, and higher capacity for both LiquidFuel and Oxidizer) to be constructed, to replace the main spacedock and perform its designed functions of acting as a major hub and point-of-origin for many of my future missions from the Kerbin system...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 10, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 10, 2013

First of all, here are some very nice screenshots of the Blackhawk Mk6 on its way towards the Mun:

Also, screenshots I captured of the adjustment burns (there were two- made close together but with low Delta-V changes, to increase the accuracy of the predicted course changes) to fine-tune the Munar approach of the Early Spacedock:

It turned out, though, that these adjustments set the SOI entries of the Balckhawk Mk6 and Early Spacedock to be practically identical (4 minutes apart).

Coordinating the simultaneous transfers of both a SSTDABK spaceplane and a mobile space-station to Munar orbit with such similar SOI entries seemed like it MIGHT be a *little* tricky... Luckily, their trajectories within the Mun's SOI proved radically different:

I decided to place the Early Spacedock in a much lower Munar orbit (300km) than the Blackhawk Mk6(1800km), to allow future missions departing from the spacedock to take maximum advantage of the Oberth effect, as well as to lower the Delta-V requirements for reusable Munar SSTO craft to reach the spacedock (in order to have any kind of a sustainable presence on the Mun, I can't afford to be staging off boosters or such, only to have them explosively impact with the Mun's surface- no matter how heavy the payload. And I will *eventually* be lifting some VERY heavy payloads of fuel and RocketParts from the Mun's surface to Munar orbit...) This does mean I will want to be sending a tanker to top off the Blackhawk, however...

Edited December 10, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 11, 2013

OK, not much to report today, but a quick update... (OK, what update of mine has ever been *QUICK*, lately? Anyways...)

Here you can catch some nice images of the new spacedock I set up in orbit of the Mun (named, not very creatively, "Munar Spacedock") as I performed crew and resource transfers to the new vessel (I started off the vessel with as much of the original spacedock's resources already onboard as possible- but due to the incremental sliders used to adjust allocation of resources to a new ship using Orbital Construction, I then had to close the small distance to where it constructed and transfer the small amount of remaining resources on the Early Spacedock to the new Munar Spacedock...)

Some of you might notice the new spacedock looks an awful lot like my 350km Kerbin Orbital Depot. That's because I took much the same strategy on this version to minimize part-count: though due to the very large vessels that will eventually be docking with it, I decided not to include any research capabilities in the Munar Spacedock to save even further on part-count (and thus reduce lag).

The Early Spacedock will soon be recycled by my Heavy Scrapper Ship (once I transfer it to Munar orbit) and the RocketParts deposited in the new Munar Spacedock.

However, due to the very high part-counts necessary to store any significant amount of KSP Interstellar reactor fuel outside of actual reactors (in the HexCans the newer versions provide- which have very limited capacity), I will be constructing a separate depot for the reactor fuel still on board the Early Spacedock- which I will want to transfer out before recycling the Early Spacedock to avoid the fuel disappearing into nothing. The depot will be based on the HexCans included in KSP Interstellar, as a large enough number of (deactivated) reactors to store an equivalent amount of reactor fuel would require a much higher Dry Mass, as the reactors have a much lower fuel-fraction than the HexCans...

However, even so, the Munar Spacedock doesn't yet have enough RocketParts on board to construct a sufficiently large fissile fuel depot- as I used virtually all my freely available RocketParts to construct the Munar Spacedock (which I wanted to make even bigger- but was limited by the quantity of available raw materials...) So, I won't be constructing the fissile fuel depot until I can get one of the several fuel tankers I have in parking orbits around Kerbin to the Munar Spacedock, and recycle it for RocketParts after unloading all its fuel to the Munar Spacedock. And I won't be scrapping the Early Spacedock until I can unload all of its reactor fuel... (the reactor is almost finished cooling down, as I manually deactivated it some time ago as of writing this, so I will soon be able to safely transfer fuel in and out of the reactor)

Which all means, in summary, that I still have some time to change my mind about scrapping the Early Spacedock. It is a rather beautiful ship, after all (IMHO). The Munar Spacedock, by contrast, is a rather ugly vessel... I probably won't keep the Early Spacedock as my Munar Hub, due to its high part-count (which would cause SERIOUS lag near some of the very large interplanetary vessels I will be refueling and constructing in Munar orbit) and comparatively low fuel storage capacity to the Munar Spacedock- but I could very well reassign it as a tried-and-tested long-range research vessel (it does have more than enough Delta-V storage-capacity to reach places like Jool, Eelo, or Moho), one sure not to have any of the fuel-crossfeed issues of my previous Nuclear Science Lab; or I could move it to a less-crowded location like Minmus orbit, where I could utilize it as a secondary spacedock location, and, once again, a research station (for Science Points- which I need a LOT more of to unlock the remaining KSP Interstellar tech nodes, such as Fusion Power).

Let me know what you guys think about this- I really can't make up my mind whether I should just scrap the Early Spacedock for (at this point) badly-needed RocketParts to establish my Munar colony, or instead load it up with enough fuel (and maybe some RocketParts- to construct a couple landers and possibly a small surface outpost- much smaller and less independent than my planned Mun colony) to reach some other location (such as Eeloo, Dres, or Vall- I'm particularly eying the cold and icy planets/moons- as I'd like to test out the ISRU refinery's electrolysis abilities on ice; and the ship's large nuclear reactor is better suited for operation far away from the Sun, where solar panels would be less effective...), where it could still see many years of active service as a research station and minor spacedock... This would also save my the headache of trying to salvage the vessel's remaining reactor fuel right now...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 11, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 11, 2013

By the way, once more thing I think I should update you guys on; since it's been swimming through my mind a lot lately...

The Mission to Duna has fallen even further prey to mod-updates than I let you guys in on before... One of the latest KSP Interstellar mod updates (great mod, I love it, *BUT*...) removed all electrolysis and other In-Situ-Resource-Utilization abilities from the KSP Interstellar Science Lab, as well as the ability to reprocess nuclear fuel (which was entirely revamped, and made much more complex, to the point I don't even pretend to understand quite how it works now just yet...), and moved all of these abilities to a new part: the "ISRU Refinery" (ISRU= In-Situ-Resource-Utilization).

The upside to this is that they reduced the mass of the Science Lab part from 3.5 to 2.5 tons (though, technically this is actually a downside for me- since I had plans to recycle the vessels containing my existing Science Labs for RocketParts- and now I won't get quite as many RocketParts from the vessels...) The downside is that the refinery is, though lighter than the original Science Lab (at only 2.5 tons instead of 3.5 tons), even more unwieldy to integrate into an existing rocket design (it can only be attached to on the bottom, or some spittle like that...) AND, worse for me, this change completely obsoletes the Duna Science Module design I sent as part of the Duna Mission- which means that even though it will arrive before the other two modules, it will no longer be able to land on Ike and start electrolyzing regolith in preparation for the arrival of the Crew Module and Duna Heavy Equipment Deployment Platform. Instead, it will just have to wait around in low Dunar orbit until the other two modules arrive- at which point I will be able to transfer out its crew and remaining fuel, build a recycling ship, and scrap it for RocketParts with which to build one of the new ISRU refineries to land on Ike... This will, of course, waste precious fuel over a direct insertion of the Duna Science Module on Ike to begin immediate electrolysis; and further will be complicated by the fact that both the Duna Crew Module and the Duna Heavy Equipment Deployment Platform will lose power shortly after arrival (I forgot before that the Duna Crew Module relies on an unmanned command pod and now update-broken NearFuture reactor as well- as all its crew are cloistered in a Hitchhiker Storage Container...)

Only the (otherwise worthless- except as an inefficient crew transport) Duna Science Module will retain electrical power (due to its reliance on still-functional KSP Interstellar reactors rather than NearFuture reactors), and, assuming they don't break during aerobraking or the capture burn- due clipping issues resulting from the change in their length in one of the latest updates- I will need to dock the Duna Science Module with the DHEDP shortly after its arrival to provide it with electrical power until I can manufacture a small RTG-probe to take its place... (the lag from having two such large vessels docked will be ENORMOUS) This is looking like the Duna Mission is going to be an *INTERESTING* experience... Hopefully I can salvage it, before any more idiotic preexisting vessel-breaking mod-updates manage to make the Duna Mission any more, err... *challenging*...

EDIT:

Oh, and, I'll have to check on this- but it looks like that LiquidFuel tanker I sent on a slow intercept to Duna has been broken by the NearFuture update as well- since I'm pretty sure I designed the thing before NearFuture removed the built-in radiators from their reactors... One *MORE* vessel I'll have to play around with when I have it loaded vs. unloaded just to ensure it doesn't run out of electricity before it can capture into a stable Dunar orbit... At this point, I'm pretty sure the only vessels that will still have stable electrical power in the Duna system will be the Duna Science Module (*IF* the reactors don't break due to clipping issues from the latest KSP Interstellar update changing their length), and the Long-Range Argon Probe I sent there for a gravity-assist: which is powered by RTG's, and might just end up being used to save my Duna mission if nothing else works...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 11, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 18, 2013

OK...

I've been busy with real life for a while (and will continue to be far busier than in the past for while), but I did find the time to make a MAJOR set of updates to my mods list.

Check the OP for details. Basically, I just brought all my mods up to the newest version I could find, and updated the base game to 0.23- which means TWEAKABLES! (I guess I'll have to figure out how those work now...)

One difference you'll all notice immediately (or whenever I get up some new images) though, is that many of my spacecraft look a lot lower-res (and less beautiful) than before. That's because I overwrote many of the files in NovaPunch 2.03a with reduced-res texture versions I found on the KSP Spaceport to save on memory and reduce lag... Sorry guys, but the lag is getting very out-of-hand, and something had to be done.

I'm also looking at installing the memory-reduction Addon currently climbing the ranks in the forum- for a very slight additional performance boost from its optimization of the stock files' compression. However it hasn't been updated to 0.23 yet, AFAIK, as of the writing of this post- so I'm still waiting for that before I install it...

Oh yeah- and I'm still waiting to hear from you guys about what you think I should do with my Early Spacedock!

Also, thanks to the new stock RAPIER engines in 0.23, it looks like I won't have to wait for the tech node to unlock B9 SABRE engines (which are heavier, but higher-performance than the RAPIER engines- as the SABRE engines have specs closer to those of real-life SABRE engines...) before I design my next line of spaceplane utilizing them...

At least one of my models will be SSTDABK capable- slapping a RAPIER engine onto the thing allows me to opt for a much higher-TWR ascent profile, as well as a much higher max cruising altitude (for speed) on Kerbin: utilizing the air-breathing function of the RAPIER engines to push up cruising altitude after reaching maximum cruising altitude with the thermal turbojets... (this allows me to essentially design the kind of three-step SSTDABK spaceplane that I previously dreamed of, but could not attempt due to the necessary part-counts and resultant lag) This means I should be able to escape Kerbin orbit with a much lower fuel fraction- which also means a relatively lighter fuselage and thus either improved sustained performance on Duna or a much smaller overall vessel...

Anyways, explanation aside, I need a name for my new line of spaceplane. So, I also invite you guys to start thinking of names now, and even propose any really good ones you come up with (feel free to also propose names after you see the final design), since I'm drawing a blank on good names for a spaceplane at the moment...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 18, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 19, 2013

Errrr, was having some problems with MechJeb before (the latest stable build doesn't work on KSP 0.23- turns out I needed to install the latest Dev Build to get it working), but those are resolved now, so expect an update on the progress of my numerous missions soon...

I have been *TOYING* with the idea of wiping this save and starting a new one though... This would allow me to start over from scratch, and keep you guys in the loop through the whole development of the space program... It might also allow me to put a little more of a "theme" to the whole program (or, maybe not)... I was also considering the idea of throwing in FAR and the Project Orion mods this time around (and praying it doesn't lag my computer to a standstill). Finally, it would also allow me to take advantage of the new "Science Archives" system- which would make it much easier for me to tell where I should send my next missions (currently, I know I've exhausted most of the science points I can get from Kerbin, Gilly, and Ike- but there are still some I could probably get from less-visited biomes on the Mun, and it would just make it a lot easier for me to tell where to go next...

Before I would do such a thing, I would want to get my copies of the Eagle Mk2 and the Blackhawk Mk6 to Duna anyways, for the "Flying Duna" challenge- though I'd probably scrap sending my RAPIER line of spaceplanes to Duna anytime soon... (mehhh, they'll probably get nerfed soon anyways- too many whiny players have been complaining they're "overpowered", despite their performance being inferior to real-life SABRE's...)

EDIT:

I gave it some thought- and looked at what people were saying about FAR- and decided my computer probably couldn't handle it, and I didn't want to deal with my spaceplanes (especially) and rockets being any harder to control... (I saw people commenting they couldn't even launch a simple Mk1 Command Pod + SRB with it anything other than straight up- so how am I going to ever get past starter tech in a new Career Mode game that way?)

I *DID* however, decide I'd just go ahead, and try something EPIC with the Orion mod... So, I found the thread for it:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/28428-Orion-aka-Ol-Boom-boom

and will be creating a "special" post on my experiments with this extremely powerful but dangerous propulsion system... Keep an eye out for that soon...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited December 19, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 19, 2013

Northstar Kerman sat in Mission Control, in a commanding seat overlooking the Control Room, but anxiously furrowing his forehead...

"This had better work" he stated to a subordinate, almost as if he wasn't even there. "The bureaucrats are really breathing down my neck about this one, to make sure it works. They say they want to make sure all these nukes don't go to waste, since it's about 5% of the International Coalition's reserves we're using for this mission."

(OOC: In real life the United States alone has a total nuclear stockpile of approximately 5,000 nuclear warheads according to public records. Russia is estimated to have somewhat less- though of typically larger size. I assume for this roleplay that the Kerbal States, Krussia, and several other advanced nuclear-armed space-capable powers entered together into an uneasy agreement to construct and support this mission- as well most of my previous Duna missions.)

"Don't worry about it" replied the subordinate- Northstar still staring into space through him as if he wasn't even there, distracted by his thoughts. "They'll see it all went to good use when they see the size of the Duna colony we set up!"

"LIFTOFF IN T-MINUS 60 SECONDS" came the voice over the loudspeaker.

"We'd better focus on the mission at hand" replied Northstar, suddenly regaining his focus, and shifting attention to his subordinate. "Where were we again- ahh yes- you were telling me the engineers had some last-minute concerns about the design. A bit late for that, don't you think?"

"Indeed- but it's better late than never I always say" replied Northstar's subordinate "They say that the vessel is dangerously heavy for the launch clamps on the launchpad, even with 12 of them attached- and there is a high chance of the vessel breaking free from them with even a strong gust of wind."

"LIFTOFF IN T-MINUS 30 SECONDS."

"You've GOT to be kidding me" replied Northstar. "A strong gust of WIND?!"

"Yep, that's what they said" replied the subordinate. "I only wish they ha---" and with that, they were both cut off by a loud SCAPPING sound that was audible in the Control Room across the auditory monitoring sensors.

"Status Report!" shouted Northstar.

"One of the launch clamps has broken loose sir! No, make that 2 clamps! Three clamps now! Four! Much more of this and the Orion will be crashing into the ground before she even lets loose her first nuke!" shouted a second worried-sounding subordinate.

"Bump up the first release!" shouted Northstar.

"But Sir!?" came the reply. "Don't question this- do it NOW, tell the rocket guidance crews to release the first Nuke IMMEDIATELY! That's an ORDER!"

"Yes Sir!" was the rapid reply, as the second subordinate quickly unhooked a phone and began dialing to the guidance crews.

"Uhhuh, yeah, do it right away. As in *NOW*. Those are the orders."

And with that, there was a dull BANG, followed by another less than a second later, and then another and another- all of which could be heard even without the sensors (which had been muted), and the control room shook a little despite being buried many meters underground.

"Orion is lifting off sir! Just in time too! Reports are indicating that the Orion had broken free of all remaining launch clamps just before release of the first warhead."

The banging sounds continued, but the grew fainter and fainter as the Orion climbed into the sky in a slow step-wise manner, much like an overweight Kerbal beginning to climb a very steep flight of stairs... (Now THAT'S an interesting idea to think about-how often do Kerbals get fat?)

"Th Orion is beginning to pick up speed Sir!" came a report catching Northstar's attention. "She's starting to catch up to terminal velocity!"

"Good" thought Northstar privately "Maybe the engineers weren't so crazy after all to propose this plan..."

"All systems are green Sir" came another report a minute or so later. "The Orion is reaching the upper atmosphere."

"Good job men. After the ascent is over, take a breather- but keep in mind it'll only be 15 or 20 minutes from then until we'll need to make a transfer 'burn', if we can still call it that." Northstar praised his men...

Some time later that day, Northstar sat in his office, confiding with the same subordinate who had informed him of the launch clamp failures before.

"It's a shame the vessel broke loose of its launch clamps like that" said the subordinate. "If it had stayed stable just 10 or 15 minutes longer, we wouldn't have had to pause the releases until gravity could turn the Orion towards Duna after exiting the atmosphere, and we would have save a lot of warheards reaching escape velocity."

"Don't worry about it." replied Northstar "We launch spacecraft for Duna all the time, and NEVER have we attempted a straight launch like that when the planet was nearly overhead or at its transfer window anyways. Sure this design was powerful enough to just point-and-shoot, but it's not like we still don't have plenty of warheads left in the thing. The Duna colonists will just have a few less leftover thermonuclears available to salvage for their modified Bluetonium nuclear reactors and lithium, deuterium, and tritium stockpiles."

"Are they really going to tear apart thermonuclear weapons for spare LITHIUM?" asked the subordinate incredulously.

"Sure, what else are they going to do with them? They're authorized to retain a few of the compressor plates for designing smaller sounding charges to detonate underground and locate ore deposits- but most of the material is better off used for fueling fusion reactors anyways. You know our engineers are telling us that the colonists will probably be able to eventually design plasma-drive HEAVY ROCKETS that will work on Duna, if they have adequate supplies of lithium for tritium-breeding, and deuterium to combine with it for some of the early fusion reactors our engineers think aren't too far away from entering service. Maybe they could even develop some more powerful thermal turbojet spaceplanes there- although you know personally I think a fusion reactor is a little overly-powerful for a spaceplane. Why waste valuable fusion material powering a spaceplane on a frontier planet where fission reactors will work just fine?"

"Good point Sir. We'll have to see what they decide to do with the leftover stuff in the end though. Speaking of which, we'd better make that course adjustment soon or we'll end up wasting a lot more warheads to make it later in the transfer."

And with that, Northstar and his subordinate walked out of the room, leaving nothing but a file of pictures of the Orion's launch by a small imaging probe with a telescoping camera behind:

OOC: Hope you guys enjoyed that one! The Orion Heavy Parts Tanker was a complete success- even if they thing did break free of its launch clamps and force me to liftoff a little early... (I was gonig to liftoff when Duna was directly overhead- since at this point, near closest approach, that's the transfer window...) Keep that in mind if any of you are thinking of using an Orion to lift really heavy payloads... (this one I used to send 100 tons of RocketParts, plus the mass of the vessel itself, and its leftover bombs- all of which can be salvaged by a Scrapper Ship- on an 11 *DAY* transfer orbit to Duna.)

With a little use of aerobraking before its capture burn (the design is VERY sturdy- it had to be to withstand the powerful shockwaves of the thermonuclear's hitting the pusher-plate...), it should be more than capable of reaching a low, stable orbit around Duna with PLENTY of bombs to spare... And this design only used the 3.5 kN variety of thermonuclear bomb- the Orion can be equipped with up to 400 kN devices for REALLY heavy payloads! Also, if I had assembled this thing in orbit (perhaps using smaller Orion vessels to bring up the necessary parts, tools, and bombs), waited for a better transfer window (Duna was near closest approach), and relied on a lower-energy transfer trajectory and a Munar gravity assist, I could easily have sent several *DOZEN* MEGATONS tons or more of payload to Duna, on a single transfer vessel utilizing a somewhat smaller quantity of the larger warheads (which get exponentially better ISP)... Using a propulsion system and bombs weighing in at under 100 tons... That's MEGA COLONY SHIP proportions (scaling it up to real world masses, you could probably transport over a GIGATON, maybe even two or three- thousands of colonists and their belongings)- though building anything that massive in KSP would inevitably crash my computer...

Edited December 19, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 19, 2013

Just some scrapping operations for you guys at the moment... I thought about roleplaying out this one, giving some story to whether Bill Kerman is enjoying his new job- but decided against it as I'm rather tired, and would rather spend my time on other things at the moment.

Anyways, I hope you guys enjoy the pics:

Eventually, I'll be consolidating all those LiquidFuel and LFO tankers floating around into my two space stations (the 350 km depot, and the Munar Spacedock), and recycling the empty tankers for RocketParts.

I've also decided I'm just going to recycle the Early Spacedock, since I haven't heard anything to the contrary from you guys about it... I've come to the conclusion that I have enough to handle colonizing Mars *cough* Duna and setting up a base on the Mun, without having to manage a badly under-supplied (I can't afford to spare much LFO mix or many RocketParts from my Mun colonization effort) mission to set up an outpost near Jupiter *cough* Jool with an increasingly obsolete craft (not only has it started to develop electrical and WasteHeat-management problems; but if I'm going to be moving a heavy vessel out there primarily with LFO mix, then I'm better off using a couple NERVA engines- which get 800 ISP- instead of a fission-powered thermal Rocket, which only gets a bit over 600 ISP with LFO mix...)

Specialist290 · December 20, 2013

Glad to see you're still alive and kicking Also, the Orion Drive is indeed ludicrous OP-fun

As for scrapping your save: Ultimately, I'm going to say "Do what you think you'd enjoy the most." If you think starting over from scratch with a new game plan is going to be more fun than continuing your current project, then do so.

Northstar1989 · December 22, 2013

I decided to continue with the save- but boy is KSP Interstellar giving me a lot of headaches lately!

I mentioned some of the WasteHeat problems it was giving me intermittently before, but with the latest update it seems to have reached the point where the only feasible way to power my vessels is with RTG's and KSP-I nuclear reactors that I shut down after exiting atmosphere... Even craft powered by nothing but stock solar panels aren't safe anymore- the mod adds WasteHeat production to the panels, but the radiators absolutely refuse to radiate ANY of that heat half the time...

EDIT:

On second thought, I could always go back to NearFuture nuclear reactors- though I'm seriously worried they'll pull another stunt similar to what they did before, with removing the built-in radiators and requiring addition of separate radiator parts to all reactors (already, they require a very broken nuclear refueling system... Not really sure I want to mess with that.)

Either way, I'll just have to suck it up and work through it I guess. If I have to constantly recycle and re-design my craft because the mods keep breaking them, then maybe that'll just have to be the price I pay for ambitious mission plans until they can get their act together. I'll probably continue to chalk these issues up to "electrical problems" or "design issues" from a roleplaying perspective, though...

Edited December 22, 2013 by Northstar1989

Northstar1989 · December 22, 2013

It also appears that KSP-Interstellar broke my previous Duna thermal turbojet designs by now requiring precoolers for high-speed flight. The older designs obviously don't have them- as the KSP-I precoolers hadn't even been introduced when I designed them. They may still fly on Duna, but they won't be able to fly nearly as high or as fast as they could've before...

Geschosskopf · December 23, 2013

You mean that's new? I just installed it for something to research in my career game after unlocking the stock tree, and was shocked when I discovered this. Fortunately, I only had 1 thing with solar panels in flight at the time, but this mod made it curl up and starve to death, without having the decency to drop out of warp first. So I uninstalled it immediately.

I'm afraid this is hosed, too. The 0.23 version apparently took much inspiration from Interstellar in that now reactors need fuel, the radiators are separate parts, and everything needs so much power as to be useless. This, among other things, destroyed my 24-ship KTC armada to Jool. Geez, the Supernova of '23 was worse than that of '22.

But such is the life of mod fetishers like us....

Damn, that's a real bummer, after all that work.

Northstar1989 · December 23, 2013

Yeah- turns out the radiators aren't actually broken either: the code for them was just changed to make them even weaker than before, to the point where you need roughly an equal amount of radiator mass to reactor mass to get anything to work anymore... And Lord have mercy if you don't include enough radiators for the new code in your design- I've found that due to the scaling system the WasteHeat uses, the generator efficiencies QUICKLY plummet to less than 1%, basically shutting down all your electrical systems...

At least the Duna planes will still work at lower speeds (than their previous maximums)- for the moment. Although Fractal_UK has announced he will be removing the atmospheric scoops I used as intakes for the planes from the mod in a future update for some strange reason- which means they won't work at all soon... So I'm going to push getting them to Duna quickly, expect a post on that in the coming days...

[CLOSED] Kerbin and Beyond: a Maturing Space Program

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