How to get rid of pre-set symmetry?

[Spyritdragon]

Hello,

Two questions:

1: Whenever i build things in the VAB, and use any form of symmetry, it seems to lock that part to that symmetry. Afterwards, whatever symmetry option other than 1x i choose, it will always snap to this, forcing me to always use the lowest form of symmetry i will use on that part, or start placing things without symmetry, which im not particularly fond of. How do i get rid of this 'set' of symmetry?

As an example, say i'd build an asparagus lifter. I'd want to have 6 radial decouplers and tanks at all exactly the same height, which i'd use the 6x symmetry for, but i need to asparagus-line my fuel lines, and some of the tanks will have skippers while others will have mainsails, making me want to use 2x symmetry, but it won't allow me.

Also, is there a way to remove parts added with symmetry without removing their symmetrical counterparts?

2. Stage grouping. As aforementioned, i usually have to set my boosters with 2x symmetry for a 6-way asparagus. It groups the engines up in groups of 2 and one single one for the central stack, giving me four icons. If my upper stages have lots of actions, this can get really messy. How do i group these 7 engines together like it does for symmetry? I've managed to ungroup them one time, not exactly sure how, and im not sure how to regroup them. Sometimes dragging them over one another works, other times it doesn't. I can also manage to surround all 4 with a green line just as it would when i click the groups of 2 (it unfolds them and lines the two grouped ones in green), but if they weren't pre-grouped, the green line will just disappear afterwards and they stay un-grouped. How do i group/ungroup stages?

[Scrogdog]

Yeah, the VAB can be a little finicky in some situations. In cases where you'd like different parts, remove the symmetry option and place them individually. Also, if you have four parts but only want to use symmetry on two, it generally won't let you and attempts to place the part in groups of four even though you have it set for only two. Again, place individually to get around it.

You can move an individual event from a group of like events by clicking on the specific one a second time and then dragging it to a new box. It doesn't really matter if they are grouped in the destination box. in my experience, sometimes things will group up and sometimes they won't.

[KerbMav]

How do i get rid of this 'set' of symmetry?

As an example, say i'd build an asparagus lifter. I'd want to have 6 radial decouplers and tanks at all exactly the same height, which i'd use the 6x symmetry for, but i need to asparagus-line my fuel lines, and some of the tanks will have skippers while others will have mainsails, making me want to use 2x symmetry, but it won't allow me.

Place them seperately.

Also, is there a way to remove parts added with symmetry without removing their symmetrical counterparts?

Nope.

How do i group/ungroup stages?

To ungroup, I click a group, unhighlight every single member of the group and then pick the one I want and move it to the stage I want it in.

Maybe to complicated, maybe I only have to deselect the one, I actually havnt tried this yet.

To group them up - save, load, hope - sometimes it works and the stage is a bit tidier/shorter.

I feel you pain!

[allmhuran]

Yep, nested symmetry takes the degree of symmetry of the parent part. Unfortunately there's no way around this, not even the editor tools mod can add this functionality. IIRC it works this way because in the craft file entire subtrees have a symmetry value.

So there's two ways around this. The first is, as suggested, add the fuel lines (or whatever) with no symmetry and replicate manually as required. The second way is to build the original trees with the required symmetry. So instead of placing six radial boosters, place with 2x symmetry three times. Now, the problem with the latter method is that, as you mentioned, you want everything to be evenly aligned and this is almost impossible when placing manually. A workaround for this *is* provided by the editor tools mod: if you enable "vertical snap" then radial parts will attach to the exact vertical center of their parent.

[Kasuha]

Regarding building asparagus stages:

- more complicated approach: place separators and fuel tanks using symmetry, then place fuel lines in x1 symmetry. Individual separators can be put to different stages if you click on the group in staging and click on the separator you want to move to unselect it from the group.

- simpler approach: build it in x2 symmetry. Place a separator, put a tank on it, place fuel line. Maybe some struts, too. Then copy the separator (and tank and struts and fuel line; use Alt+click to copy) and put it onto the first tank. Then copy it again and put it on the second tank. It may not look that awesome but you have everything done except staging (but you get the separators ready to stage) and it's very easy to set up. In the end I learned to use "unfolded asparagus", i.e. I make the ship flat instead of rolled in because it not only is easy to set up and access but also when dropping excess tanks they don't collide with the ship.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Kasuha

[arq]

You could place one set in 2x symmetry (or whatever you want), then use <alt> to copy the parts and paste them as many other places as you wish. It's slightly less elegant than what you want, but I believe it is the best solution the game currently offers.

[Spyritdragon]

Thanks for the information and hints so far everyone :-).

In the end I learned to use "unfolded asparagus", i.e. I make the ship flat instead of rolled in because it not only is easy to set up and access but also when dropping excess tanks they don't collide with the ship.

Doesn't that put a huge sheer stress on your innermost drop tanks?

[mpink]

You can remove symmetry by manual editing the save file.

Symmetry can cause some very strange problems in KSP.

The .craft files are in a text format so any good text editor will allow you to view and edit them.

This craft is very simple to demonstrate on.

It has a tri symmetric tanks/engine layout.

This code shows the part text for one of the long fule tanks.

PART
{
	part = fuelTank.long_4294779602
	partName = Part
	pos = -1.746062E-05,8.146922,-1.245456
	rot = 0,0.7071068,0,-0.7071069
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	link = liquidEngine_4294779538
	sym = fuelTank.long_4294759508
	sym = fuelTank.long_4294759376
	srfN = srfAttach,fuelTank.long_4294779634
	attN = bottom,liquidEngine_4294779538
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}

The sym = *** lines are the symmetry links and tell you what other parts and the ID of these parts.

Deleting these lines for all the relevant parts will disable the symmetry.

Ugly but it works.

You may find it better to do using the new saved parts system as hunting through a text file of a hundred odd parts to find the one you want is a bit tricky.

Crosses fingers and hopes that tweakables in 0.23 will fix this.

For my example ship i removed all sym = *** lines.

There were 2 lines in 6 parts as the engines were symmetrical too.

The result was an unlinking of the parts and the freedom to more them individually.

It is possible to say use 2 X symmetry on a part and then place the parent part using 3 X symmetry but this will lead to a corruption in the .craft file if not very very careful.

The problem has something to do with confusing the engine and having it incorrectly writing those sym = *** lines but hears an example.

So for my finishing move il convert a 4X symmetry tank layout into 2 2X symmetry tanks.

PART
{
	part = fuelTank.long_4294525866
	partName = Part
	pos = -1.746077E-05,7.555626,-1.247208
	rot = 0,0.7071068,0,-0.7071069
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = fuelTank.long_4294489720
	sym = fuelTank.long_4294489684
	sym = fuelTank.long_4294489648
	srfN = srfAttach,fuelTank.long_4294779634
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}

So i find a part that has all 4 part ids in it and i copy and paset the ids into groups so i dont get confused.

I guessed that the center sym = id would be on the other side to the current part and was correct luckily

1)

fuelTank.long_4294525866

fuelTank.long_4294489684

2)

fuelTank.long_4294489720

fuelTank.long_4294489648

Then in all four parts i deleted any sym = lines that were not in my new groups layout.

Lol.

Confused yet ? cause i know i am.

Looking at the files it would be a lot easier to have placed the parts using 2X symmetry and then just fixed there heights (or used the mod mentioned).

The only reason i can think of for tampering with a file like this would be to remove 1 of the parts of a 6 or 8 part symmetry so that its parent part could then be used in a symmetric fashion.

[Kasuha]

Doesn't that put a huge sheer stress on your innermost drop tanks?

With the lifter in the picture I had no accidents in a very long time and I use it every day. Deformation during liftoff is part of the design - thanks to how struts are laid, it actually presses the ship together as it turns slightly "U" shaped under full thrust, and diagonal struts between the ship and its payload lift the payload up, decreasing stress on the central decoupler and docking ports. When a stage runs out of fuel it leans slightly off from the ship and when decoupled it just slides away without even slightest chance of touching it.

Notice the tanks within columns are strutted together too, though.

[Spyritdragon]

You can remove symmetry by manual editing the save file.

Symmetry can cause some very strange problems in KSP.

The .craft files are in a text format so any good text editor will allow you to view and edit them.

Aha! This is really useful. Now i can write a Javascript that'll remove all symmetry from a specific craft. If it works i might even upload it. All i hope is that nobody makes a mod part that has 'sym' in it .

[mpink]

Aha! This is really useful. Now i can write a Javascript that'll remove all symmetry from a specific craft. If it works i might even upload it. All i hope is that nobody makes a mod part that has 'sym' in it .

How you getting on ?

I dusted off my MonoDevelop and had a bit of a fiddle and come up with the SymTest Mod.

Basically its a sepratron that when placed on another part removes all its symmetry links.

So i made a quick orange beast with 6X symmetry and fule going to the center.

Stuck the sepratron on the front and the back tanks and then discarded it leaving 4 tanks in 4X symmetry and 2 tanks with no symmetry.

The action groups tab can do symmetry highlighting.

With a bit of rotating, some pushing and then a very large hammer, the skippers went on using 4x symmetry and the mainsails went on singly.

I left everything else in 6X symmetry. The staging can be changed without changing symmetry but fuel lines do become more of a challenge as you cant put parts on them. Also single into double and back to single still dose not work. So i think its more of an onion than asparagus.

Still the purpose i made it for works fine. Removing a part of a 6x Symmetry and then using its parent in 2X.

[Spyritdragon]

Haven't had very much spare time on my computer, but i'll get there hopefully. Its a really simple script to type, although it might not be very efficient: load your craft file (might need conversion to a .txt, but that can be done manually), search for "sym=", remove everything after untill you reach the end of the line, and go on.

[orangexception]

If you want to remove symmetry via an editor, then a simple regular expression find/replace will work.

Find

^\s*sym\s*=.*\n

Replace

[empty string]

I found that it's easier to build one section of the ship and then do symmetry at the end. If I wanted 4x fuel tanks with 2x sepratrons on each, then I make 1 fuel tank, do the 2 sepratrons, and finally do the 4x symmetry. Apply fuel lines and structs as needed.

Edited November 12, 2013 by orangexception
wrong slashes, been doing other things today...