For 0.23, please reduce Science "Click Grinding" by automating no-brainer tasks

[NeilC]

I'm looking forward to 0.23's rework of Science to reduce the "click grinding" feeling of the current mechanic. I hope these two ideas will be considered for inclusion in the new framework.

1) At all times, automatically fill any empty science "slot" with any first-time measurement as it becomes available

I see this being implemented as a task on a ~10s counter, or once per time-warp step above 10x timewarp, that cycles through all available science options and automatically fires any collections as long as A) the science "slot" is currently empty, and the current biome has not yet been sampled.

In the current model, the player can always discard the automatically collected science and take another biome measurement so this is a no-brainer: it's always the right thing to do, the only question is whether the player knows enough/remembers to do it. If the 0.23 model makes it impossible to discard and repeat measurements, this wouldn't work - maybe a prompt instead? Maybe a config option to make it auto, prompt, or do nothing?

Making no-brainer collection automatic (or prompting for it) also serves as an intro to new players who may not know how many biomes there are, or how many options they have for science collection - on their very first rocket launch every instrument would fire immediately on the pad, letting them know exactly what their craft can do, and also that there is value on doing science on Kerbin itself.

2) Add a "Probe Mode" toggle that does the above whenever there is still value in sampling the current biome (not just first sample), and also enables auto-transmission of the data.

I know the transmission model will change in 0.23, but I assume there will still be some value to transmissions. Hopefully the small, data-only instruments (thermometer, seismic, gravioli) will get 100% from transmission, as they are just sending numbers anyway. But that remains to be seen, and isn't really the point.

Regardless, a "Probe mode" would allow players to go hands-free on science and removes a lot of redundant clicking without changing anything else about the game mechanics. Data rate is still limited by electrical charge, you still have to pilot your craft to the right spots, this would really just automate the tedium of clicking through 10 "collect-transmit-recharge" cycles during a Jool flyby. It would also enable most probe Science to be done during timewarp - believe it or not, having to babysit Science collection by clicking your craft repeatedly in 5 locations for 10-minutes at x1 timewarp isn't very much fun. I'd much rather blow through the flyby at 10x warp and actually enjoy the view for a minute or two.

Let me know if you agree, disagree, or have any similar ideas!

Edited November 12, 2013 by NeilC
typo

[UberFuber]

Dev answered this already.

http://kerbaldevteam.tumblr.com/post/66138708921/devnote-tuesday-the-leftover-candy-edition

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/content/234-0-23-Update-News

Ensure, endless repeating experiment is no longer possible (or at least pointless).

[boomerdog2000]

I feel like the current clicking grind that people are complaining about is because they are already trying to game the system by transmitting everything. In the .23 update they are supposedly fixing the ability to gain all the science by transmitting it which will encourage you to return samples, which should fix your grinding.

Also I believe they said some experiments won't be able to be reset anymore, which might cause an automatic system to annoy people, especially since you might travel through several different biomes on your way to your destination. For example, you might want to use your goo modules on the surface of the Mun but they automatically trigger in space near Mun and you can't reset them.

[NeilC]

UberFuber, I think you're missing the point. boomerdog2000, I addressed your concern in the OP already:

"If the 0.23 model makes it impossible to discard and repeat measurements, this wouldn't work - maybe a prompt instead? Maybe a config option to make it auto, prompt, or do nothing?"

I know the system will change in 0.23. The devs have said experiments won't be "endlessly repeatable" - there may still be some value in repeat measurements. Even if not, there will still be transmittable science and some players will want to build small, unmanned, long-range probes that aren't intended to return to Kerbin. Especially once money becomes a factor later on.

My point is that in all situations where you have A) an empty science slot and a valuable sample you could take, the game should either:

- take it for you, if there's no cost to doing so

- prompt you to take it, if you might not want to

- do nothing if you have said "don't bug me again" to a previous prompt

To me, that's a no-brainer and will seamlessly introduce players to new ways of collecting science.

A "Probe mode" to let you automatically collect unmanned, transmitted science while under timewarp seems like a good idea to me.

Do you see a down side to these?

[boomerdog2000]

- take it for you, if there's no cost to doing so

There might be a cost that it can't determine, like if I'm going somewhere with more valuable science, but it uses up my science modules.

- prompt you to take it, if you might not want to

Then I would have 10 or so prompts asking me if I wanted to do science only for me to scroll through all of them clicking no.

- do nothing if you have said "don't bug me again" to a previous prompt

The current system which I prefer.

I will give you that this would make it easier for new players but I believe a lot would just find it annoying.

Also something else that hasn't been taken into account. If you're running a multi-ship mission somewhere, You're going to have multiple ships with their science modules passing through the same areas. Your system would make them all want to sample the same data because, since it hasn't been returned or transmitted yet, it still has the initial value.

I'm sure we could think of ways around these problems, especially with your prompt, but I just don't like the idea. If we automate too much stuff in this game what are we going to do? I like the feeling of checking the science modules I placed, on the ship I designed, on the course I set. If I start having some computer nag me about sampling science in locations I don't want to it would take me out of the experience.

[NeilC]

There might be a cost that it can't determine, like if I'm going somewhere with more valuable science, but it uses up my science modules.

If the module would be "used up", then that's a cost it can determine. If your instrument is a thermometer, I'm assuming that's not the case. Of course the game should never "use up" something on you without asking.

You're going to have multiple ships with their science modules passing through the same areas. Your system would make them all want to sample the same data because, since it hasn't been returned or transmitted yet, it still has the initial value.

Good point, this would be annoying. Could be fixed by consolidating the dialog to ask about all currently empty slots, instead of one dialog for each.

I just don't like the idea.

Fair enough. But please remember that "Don't bug me again" would be an option. This idea would take experienced players like you out of the experience exactly once, on the first second of your first launch. For others, it could provide them with continuing guidance on how to get the most out of Science.

And whether you're experienced or not, having a "Probe mode" toggle is pure grind-removal. Is repeating the same 15 clicks to sample and transmit all your experiments as you fly over the 10th Mun biome really the immersive game experience you're looking for?

Edited November 12, 2013 by NeilC

[boomerdog2000]

Fair enough. You've convinced me.