[0.23]asmi's ECLSS Mod (current version - 1.0.15) - Life Support Mod

[KerbMav]

Right now only by resupply, so you finally have a reason to fly resupply missions Once the vessel is inside breatheable atmosphere, kerbals don't consume any oxygen/generate CO2, so they don't really need any oxygen onboard.

Air vents for resupply, and heavy - unpractical for ships and landing/take of, but good for stations/bases - regenerators in the future maybe?

But you said "right now", so ...

Right now once existing CO2 tanks are filled, any excess CO2 generated is dumped overboard. The only purpose for CO2 tanks is to keep it for reprocessing back to O2 using regenerator later.

Ah, OK, was already worried about Kerbals suffocating as soon as the CO2 has no place to go.

Yes, I don't do any calculations while user is in VAB/SPH, although when you are on the Space Center/Tracking Station screens, time goes as normal and hence my mod does the calculations and everything behaves as if you're in normal game - except that any notifications are suppressed until you enter flight mode.

Check.

[Ralathon]

Right now only by resupply, so you finally have a reason to fly resupply missions Once the vessel is inside breatheable atmosphere, kerbals don't consume any oxygen/generate CO2, so they don't really need any oxygen onboard.

It would be nice if O2 regenerates in atmospheres in some future update. Imagine that you have an off world base on Laythe with a reusable spaceplane to ferry crew to and from some orbital station. It would be rather silly if you had to ship O2 from Kerbin to Laythe to keep the plane and station stocked while there is a massive supply of O2 just a few kilometers below you.

I can also imagine it makes sense for return missions. If you send a mission to Laythe it doesn't make sense to stock enough O2 to get back, that's extra mass that you could also easily gather in situ. Maybe do the same thing Ioncross did and have Eve and Duna atmospheres generate free CO2 while Kerbin and Laythe generate free O2

[KhaosCorp]

I can assure you its not Kethane causing these issues, have been using Kethane since 0.19 and never once had this problem before......first time this EVER happened to me in KSP was about 45min after first installing LifeSupport......

Just a thought...not sure how your plugin loads, but did you code to account for the KSPAddon bug?

Edited November 14, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[asmi]

I can assure you its not Kethane causing these issues, have been using Kethane since 0.19 and never once had this problem before......first time this EVER happened to me in KSP was about 45min after first installing LifeSupport......

Still - I do see tons of exceptions coming from Kethane in the log file. Can you please do me a favor and run an experiment? This at least would give me a direction to dig further...

[czokletmuss]

This mod is just amazing. I've been waiting for life support mod of such quality since I bought KSP (0.16, I think). Kudos to you!

And one question - will you add support for FASA and/or other popular mods with capsules?

EDIT: And was the mod tested in interplanetary travel? I mean, how much more mass you need to support, let's say, 3 Kerbals on journey to Duna and back?

Edited November 14, 2013 by czokletmuss

[EuSouONumero345]

Awesome mod thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kyle.mk.howard]

Still - I do see tons of exceptions coming from Kethane in the log file. Can you please do me a favor and run an experiment? This at least would give me a direction to dig further...

I'm experiencing the same issues and I am not running Kethane. I can send you a log file, if you wish.

[KhaosCorp]

I'm experiencing the same issues and I am not running Kethane. I can send you a log file, if you wish.

What mods are you running???

So far I am unable to replicate the issue on a stock + life support install,so its looking like either the KSPAddon thingy bug or some kinds crazy interaction with other plugins.

[asmi]

This mod is just amazing. I've been waiting for life support mod of such quality since I bought KSP (0.16, I think). Kudos to you!

Thank you!

And one question - will you add support for FASA and/or other popular mods with capsules?

I will eventually - now I'm too busy with fixing bugs If somebody would volunteer to make such configs for MM, I' be glad to include them in the pack.

EDIT: And was the mod tested in interplanetary travel? I mean, how much more mass you need to support, let's say, 3 Kerbals on journey to Duna and back?

Each kerbal need 550 liters of oxygen per 24 hrs (this is now much a human needs for that period, so it's not just a random number ) That volume of oxygen weighs 0.7865 kg (again it's based on real-life oxygen density of 1.43 gr per liter at normal pressure). So you can run the numbers I could probably add simple calculator to VAB/SPH to help out with this number-crunching, but I assume that users of that mod are able to use regular calculator All these numbers assume that regenerator is not running, so it gives you a firm "no less than" number. Regenerator can multiply that time by a factor of 10 or so (don't remember exact balancing numbers I used).

[asmi]

I'm experiencing the same issues and I am not running Kethane. I can send you a log file, if you wish.

Of course I wish! MOAR LOGS!

[czokletmuss]

if somebody would volunteer to make such configs for MM, I' be glad to include them in the pack.

I know nothing about modding but wouldn't this solve the issue for example for Gemini (FASA_Gemini_Pod2)?

@PART[FASA_Gemini_Pod2]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = LifeSupportModule
	}


	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen
		amount = 800
		maxAmount = 800
	}

	RESOURCE
	{
		name = CO2
		amount = 0
		maxAmount = 800
	}

	RESOURCE
	{
		name = O2 Candle
		amount = 2
		maxAmount = 2
	}

	MODULE
	{
		name = TankPriorityModule
		Priority = 10
	}
}

So you can run the numbers I could probably add simple calculator to VAB/SPH to help out with this number-crunching, but I assume that users of that mod are able to use regular calculator

Ha, sure thing. But the in-game calculator would be cool nontheless

[anarkhon]

Still getting some freezes, and its always when trying to change to space center scene....don't seem to matter where from. When it happens it locks everything up, KSP and my pc...only thing I am able to to is restart my pc..cant even force close KSP.

Here is the log, but was generated from restartign my pc, not telling it to dump an output, so not sure if it will have helpful info:

http://www./download/3lmlc73cv7ady0u/output_log.txt

Removing the Life Support folder seems to fix it, though Id need to test a bit more before Im 100% on that.

+1

i have the same problem here

[KhaosCorp]

Ok, making a bit of progress.....and got a new log for you =)

http://www./download/ou7eskc0ujv7v22/output_log2.txt

The mods I have installed at time of this output:

MechJeb2 + Multipatch (ran several test flights with just this, no issues)

Soviet Pack (latest version, ran several more test flights, including parts from pack, no issues)

...here is where I jumped the gun a bit.....

ASET lander cabin (with life support added) and latest version of Editor Extensions were installed at same time...First test flight and my entire pc locks trying to enter spacecenter scene.

gonna try removing one to narrow it down a bit more...hope this helps

[asmi]

Ok, making a bit of progress.....and got a new log for you =)

http://www./download/ou7eskc0ujv7v22/output_log2.txt

The mods I have installed at time of this output:

MechJeb2 + Multipatch (ran several test flights with just this, no issues)

Soviet Pack (latest version, ran several more test flights, including parts from pack, no issues)

...here is where I jumped the gun a bit.....

ASET lander cabin (with life support added) and latest version of Editor Extensions were installed at same time...First test flight and my entire pc locks trying to enter spacecenter scene.

gonna try removing one to narrow it down a bit more...hope this helps

Can you please post a save file with minimal version + list of mods so I could install them on my dev instance and check out what's going on? I have a theory on what's going on, but I need to double-check

[KhaosCorp]

Ok, got at least one conflict pinpointed, EditorEx runs fine

The ASET lander cabin causes game/pc lock when installed with the life support

Here is another output http://www./download/oooc24x9dk4jx06/output_log3.txt this is with all the mods I listed in last post, minus EditorExtensions.

Save game I did tests with : http://www./download/diuk9bl9nhm1qh7/persistent.sfs

Im glad to have narrowed down a bit, hopeful you can gather what the issues is from this.....if not quite post so...I got more mods I use than those above, so I can keep testing.

Here is the pod thread in case you need that http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/54925-WIP-ALCOR-Advanced-Landing-Capsule-for-Orbital-Rendezvous-by-ASET-%28UPD-12-11-2013%29

Edited November 14, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[regex]

This looks like something I'd like to try out. Do you have plans for additional resources? Do you have plans to allow the user to customize consumption rates (I don't think Kerbals should use the same amount of resources that a human would, for instance)? How about EVA resources?

[Guest]

This is a great mod. I've got a few suggestions on how you could expand it later on.

-CO2 scrubbers. Not a trivial matter IRL, CO2 buildup is actually more of a danger than running out of oxygen. Such a scrubber would slowly consume a "Sorbent" material in order to remove CO2 from the pod. In some designs (like the Shuttle RCRS and presumably Vozdukh), it could be regenerated, taking a large amount of ElectricCharge in a short time. CO2 capacity should be much lower than O2 cap in most cases, but in all but few (like Soyuz, with scrubber in the OM) the scrubber should be included in the pod.

-Water management. It'd work much like oxygen, with crew consuming Water and producing Waste Water. Now, unlike CO2, Waste Water couldn't kill the crew and could be simply dumped overboard. However, it could also be reprocessed into oxygen and hydrogen by units such as Russian Elektron system, with the help of ElectricCharge. Hydrogen would usually be dumped overboard (that's how it works on the ISS), but it could also be retained and used for something.

-Waste management. Basically, crew consumes food and produces Waste. Waste could be dumped if the tank are full, but you're supposed to load it onto resupply ships being deorbited.

-MFT integration. With so many resources, delivery systems could use customization. Also, Oxygen+Hydrogen is a viable, if not very efficient propellant combination. An optional feature, but neat.

Now, with all those resources, the stock "Generator" module could potentially accomplish a lot. Those things won't need any plugin work, but would be neat to have models for:

-Fuel Cell. Uses up either LH2 (LiquidFuel if not using MFT) or Hydrogen+LOX (oxidizer if no MFT) or Oxygen. Produces Water and ElectricCharge. Toggleable, and not even that heavy.

-Greenhouse. Uses up CO2, Waste, ElectricCharge, Wastewater and requires sunlight, much like solar panels. Produces food and oxygen, unless out of sunlight, where it starts using up oxygen and producing CO2. Universal part for long expeditions, but heavy, bulky and not very efficient. A full implementation would probably require some coding, but a partial one should be possible without it.

-Cryo processor. Uses up lots of ElectricCharge, Hydrogen and/or Oxygen and returns LH2 and/or LOX (LiquidFuel and/or Oxidizer in stock game). Basically, a rather bulky freezer for chilling Hydrogen and Oxygen to cryo temperatures for use in the engines.

[sirklick]

I know you are busy squashing bugs etc (priority), but I thought this nicety/balance issue worth mentioning for future consideration. The Big 2.5m O and CO2 tanks visually communicate that they are much higher volume then they actually are (10 small tanks plus a sphere tank possible in the middle while still allowing for support structure should provide ~4700 units of storage and mass > 2.3 based on small tank values). I am adjusting my own with MM to compensate, but the current default makes 5 small tanks far more mass efficient then the large -the only drawback being increased part count.

[Virtualgenius]

Another log it locked up beautifully and had to kill the application

http://www./download/r65zi77em2p002e/output_log.txt

Mods

Aies

Aset Lander

Bahumoto Lander

Bobcat American soviet pack

Crew manifest

Fasa

Hull Camera VDS

KAS

Kerbal Joint Reinforce

Kerbon Tech Capsule

Kosmos selected parts

KSPX

KWrocketry

Mechjeb2

Novapunch

Chaterer

Realchute

Rla_stocklike

Romfarer

Spacefactory Vostock / Luna

Telemachus

VNG eva parachutes

MM DLL 1.5

[Moon Goddess]

-Water management. It'd work much like oxygen, with crew consuming Water and producing Waste Water. Now, unlike CO2, Waste Water couldn't kill the crew and could be simply dumped overboard. However, it could also be reprocessed into oxygen and hydrogen by units such as Russian Elektron system, with the help of ElectricCharge. Hydrogen would usually be dumped overboard (that's how it works on the ISS), but it could also be retained and used for something.

I've been giving a lot of thought to this subject lately, especially in how it relates to resources mods. Surely if you harvest water from a planetary body you should be able to purify the water for drinking, or use it for oxygen/hydrogen extraction. But it looks kinda funny if what you're digging up in labeled Waste Water.

So my first thought was label the drinking water "Potable Water" or "Purified Water" and then the waste and what you dig up will simply be "Water" But then I got to thinking. Water reclamation and purification is actually pretty easy. So how about a radically different way of handling water as a resource.

Ships carry the resource "Water" Water can be harvested from planetary bodies, and processed into Oxygen and Propellium. Kerbals required the craft contains a minimum amount of water or they die but only a very small amount of water is "used" by the kerbals. Say Each Kerbal must have 5 Water aboard to live, We assume that each day 5 water passes thru the Kerbal and is reclaimed it becomes 5 water again. What is used is 0.01 Water which is added to the Solid Waste.

This way collected water and stored water and waste water are all represented but they are handled "in a black box" it's just happens.

[KhaosCorp]

Well, just for the sake of testing I went back to the KSP install I had these issues with in first place...removed the ASET lander cabin, and the game runs fine, no lockups so far in 3 test flights...one of those being one of the best on runway Buran landings Ive to date!

Running alot of mods on that install....maybe this is worth mentioning in the ASET thread....its really the best small lander cabin in KSP imo...but this life support trumps it...darn shame to

[Guest]

I think this system would be too inflexible and too "out of line" with what we have. Note, I'm threating Waste Water as "heavily contaminated water" that is under no conditions suitable for drinking. To be of any use, even for the oxygen generator, it must be purified (unless we're talking the greenhouse, then it's just filtered, so that other waste can be used for fertilization). I'm assuming that it happens in the oxygen generator assembly, but I think we could split "Water" into "Potable Water" and "Water". The latter would be mined from planets and be the product of basic reprocessing, the former would require extra reprocessing. Water could be used as a substitute for Potable Water, but only for a short time.

I think that it's a bit too complex of an idea, though. Maybe better assume that purification happens inside the mining device?

[czokletmuss]

One more idea for you, asmi: inverse-square law for solar panels.

It'll fit nicely into the idea of ECLSS (that is, harder and more realistic gameplay).

[asmi]

Ok, got at least one conflict pinpointed, EditorEx runs fine

The ASET lander cabin causes game/pc lock when installed with the life support

Can you please do me another favor - go into config file for that mod, and remove all underscores from part name (name attribute), save it and try again. My guess is it will work just fine.

[asmi]

<skipped>

So you call it "realizm". Let's imagine what it would look like: kerbals are spending all their time sitting on the pan peeing and taking a dump (since you say that waste and waster water is constantly being generated), while at the same time eating and drinking (for the same reason as above). Maybe I'll need to ask BobCat to replace seats in Soyuz with toilet seats?

Ok, back to business: I most certainly will add more resources later on, but I still want to keep the system simple and accessible by normal people, not just nerds like me or you The biggest problem is the amount of micromanagement - even current mod is getting troublesome once you've got over 20 missions in progress an the same time all over the solar system, with your additions it would become a nightmare much faster. I would like to add new gameplay mechanics, and new resources will be added to faciliate that mechanic, not the other way around. I would like to avoid having users carry three different kinds of oxygen (which is essentially what you're proposing, with food, water being just a different kind of resource that kerbals consume) just for the sake of carrying three different resources instead of one.

And think about if would be comfortable managing 20 missions at the same time - with all that micromanagement, it might become your full time job instead of, you know, actually progressing with the mission.