[0.23.5] Realism Overhaul: ROv5.2 + Modlist for RSS 6/30/14

[RaccoonTOF]

Has Jack's RealEngines been updated to update the stats on the new ARM engines yet? I've searched around but been unable to find any update past 0.6, which does not include them. I'm working on building a series of SLS launch systems, starting at Block 0 and working up to the full Block II with complete EDS, but not having proper booster options and main engine stats is making it quite a challenge (at least if trying to keep the physical dimensions close to the same...). I've no issue with having to create a couple config files myself, I just wanted to see if it had already been updated prior to my doing so.

[Semmel]

Hi RSS Fans,

Ok, I found the standard kerbol system not challenging enough and I started on RSS with a whole bunch of mods. But beeing a newcomer, I had some problems.

1. The description here in RO on the first page is not very helpful. Lots of mods are listed, but few with links. I can google them, still its not helpful. There is also little description how to make the mods work together nicely. I understand the topic is presented for advanced players who deal with mods on a daily basis. Its a hassle for newcomers like me though.

2. Too many parts and no idea what does what. The ingame texts are often not helpful (enough). This goes to the modmakers of the individual mods, but it is really also a problem of RSS, because of the setup, lots of mods are required and that cant be avoided.

3. Too many obsolete parts. Even after changing the multiplier factor in FAR, there are LOTS and LOTS of obsolete parts. Engines with the wrong size, fuel tanks that are not needed because of the stretchy tanks, etc.

There is something I would need that solves all the problems above: A neat starters pack. It should include all essential mods, a working set of config files and all the mods should be cleaned such that only the relevant parts are left. Including removing stock parts. And an install instruction. Like: Copy your unmodded game folder, remove all folders in the GameData folder and extract "downloadable file" into the empty GameData folder. If any changes to the mods are necessary, than at least you have a starting point. (I would for example rather use the 10x kerbol system instead of the real solar system.. but thats more a matter of taste..)

Can someone please assemble something like a RSS starter pack? Would be wonderful!

Cheers,

Semmel

[NathanKell]

RaccoonTOF: SFJackBauer's RealEngines has not been updated for some time, and I haven't seen SFJackBauer around much. coldblade2000, IIRC, is working on adding Engine Ignitor support. If you want to do up Block II configs for the parts, that'd be awesome. I'll combined yours and the EI configs and make an SFJBRE update.

Semmel: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/67668

Doesn't remove parts, though, but that could be done by making a script execute afterwards.

That said, I agree RO needs docs badly. The closest we have is here: https://github.com/NathanKell/RealSolarSystem/wiki/_pages

[O Nerd]

A quick question: Which direction of the Tech Tree unlocks bigger procedural fairing bases?

EDIT: Which root?

Edited April 21, 2014 by O Nerd

[NathanKell]

MedievalNerd didn't have time to add patches for Stretchy/PP and PF radius unlocking. Coming soon. For now, just edit the appropriate files and set the start limits very high.

[RaccoonTOF]

I'm still quite hazy on Engine Ignitor customizing myself, so I won't be able to add those portions to the SLS engines, but I can do up some configs to set them to the proper real-life diameters, thrust values, ISP, etc. I also need to figure out how the nozzle thrust factor works on the procedurals SRBs, so that I can actually properly replicate the thrust values of the SS-SRB for the Block 0, as well as the proposed "uprated" versions for the Block I/II SRB option (for those that want the choice between the SRB and the LF versions). Will see what I can put together in the next couple days, and then PM you with the configs, so you can finish up any additional tweaks you want to make them fit with the rest of the update and incorporate the EI code.

[O Nerd]

MedievalNerd didn't have time to add patches for Stretchy/PP and PF radius unlocking. Coming soon. For now, just edit the appropriate files and set the start limits very high.

I see that the whole thing has a lot of configs. Which one should i edit?

[NathanKell]

StretcyTanks/Parts/tech.cfg

change line with start to start = 1000

Keramzit/ProceduralFairings/common.cfg

change to look like

PROCFAIRINGS_MINRAD
{
  start = 0.001
  precisionEngineering = 0.001
}

PROCFAIRINGS_MAXRAD
{
  start = 9999
  aerodynamicSystems = 9999
  heavyAerodynamics = 9999
  experimentalAerodynamics = 9999
}

RaccoonTOF: cool. Engine ignitor is simple: for the main engines, and the Pyrios booster you give them this (will set up a 1-ignition limit that costs some EC to use):

MODULE
 {
  name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
  ignitionsAvailable = 1
  autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
  ignitorType = Electric
  useUllageSimulation = true
  IGNITOR_RESOURCE
  {
   name = ElectricCharge
   amount = 25.5
  }
 }

and for the J-2X, that presumably has, what, 3 restarts? you do this:

MODULE
 {
  name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
  ignitionsAvailable = 4
  autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
  ignitorType = Electric
  useUllageSimulation = true
  IGNITOR_RESOURCE
  {
   name = ElectricCharge
   amount = 5.0
  }
 }

Edited April 22, 2014 by NathanKell

[OtherBarry]

Would you be able to add the ModuleManager cfg from the latest version of Procedural Parts to then next RO release?

It changes the step diameter to RO's 2m, 4m, etc, as well as increasing the thrust limit on SRBs.

Edited April 22, 2014 by OtherBarry

[RaccoonTOF]

Ok, I'm running into an odd issue I've not seen before. After having done the first config for the RS-25E (four) cluster for the Core stage main engine block (and prior to adding the fuel tanks to the part), all the values show up properly in the VAB "more info" section, but when actually attaching it to a rocket it does not appear to be being recognized as an engine at all (no staging icon, no RealFuels dialog, etc). Here is the MM config that I worked up with a combination of your spreadsheet and some manual editing for the rescaling and such.

@PART[Size3EngineCluster]:Final
{
 %title = RS-25 (Four)
 %manufacturer = Rocketdyne
 %description = Expendable version of the SSME (RS-25) intended for SLS Block I/II Core Stage propulsion.
 %rescaleFactor = 2.2333
 !NODE {}
 %node_stack_top = 0.0,1.527248,0.0 , 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 8
 %attachRules = 1,0,1,1,0

 %crashTolerance = 20
 %breakingForce = 8304
 %breakingTorque = 8304

 @mass = 12.798
 @maxTemp = 2400

 @MODULE[ModuleEnginesFX]
 {
  @minThrust = 7440
  @maxThrust = 7440
  @heatProduction = 162
  @fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.558325
  !PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel] {}
  !PROPELLANT[Oxidizer] {}
  PROPELLANT
  {
   name = LiquidH2
   ratio = 72.856139
   DrawGauge = True
  }
  PROPELLANT
  {
   name = LiquidOxygen
   ratio = 27.143861
  }
  @atmosphereCurve
  {
   @key,0 = 0 452
   @key,1 = 1 363
  }
 }

 @MODULE[ModuleGimbal]
 {
  @name = SmarterGimbal
  %gimbalRange = 1
  %gimbalResponseSpeed = 7.46271439024869
  %useGimbalResponseSpeed = true
 }
 !MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs] {}
 MODULE
 {
  name = ModuleEngineConfigs
  techLevel = 7
  origTechLevel = 7
  engineType = L+
  origMass = 12.798
  configuration = LiquidH2+LiquidOxygen
  modded = false
  CONFIG
  {
   name = LiquidH2+LiquidOxygen
   maxThrust = 7440
   heatProduction = 162
   PROPELLANT
   {
    name = LiquidH2
    ratio = 0.72856139
    DrawGauge = True
   }
   PROPELLANT
   {
    name = LiquidOxygen
    ratio = 0.27143861
   }
   IspSL = 1.234519
   IspV = 1.3026
   throttle = 0.75
   ModuleEngineIgnitor
   {
    name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
    ignitionsAvailable = -4
    autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
    ignitorType = Electric
    useUllageSimulation = true
    IGNITOR_RESOURCE
    {
     name = ElectricCharge
     amount = 99.2
    }
   }
  }
 }
 !MODULE[ModuleEngineIgnitor] {}
 MODULE
 {
  name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
  ignitionsAvailable = 3
  autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
  ignitorType = Electric
  useUllageSimulation = true
  IGNITOR_RESOURCE
  {
   name = ElectricCharge
   amount = 99.2
  }
 }
}

Also, what value do I need to insert to set the minimum throttle value to 67% like the real engines?

EDIT: I got the engine ignitor values using your spreadsheet, and decided that a "3 ignition" option for them seemed reasonable - the RS-25D are rated for 10 restarts prior to servicing, I figured that since the "disposable" E versions are not going to be built as robustly (and at least one of the second stage options is specifically intended to use a restartable variant) that 3 for the main cluster and 5 for the second-stage version seemed reasonable.

Second EDIT: Also, the attached TANKS recognize it as an engine, and allow me to select the proper fuel mixture to fill them with, I just have no engine-related interfaces for the part itself...

Third EDIT: When I went to attempt to launch, to see if I had engine controls there, it also fell through the pad with no collision at all...I'm just getting more confused here

Fourth! EDIT: It definitely appears to be an issue with MM somehow. When I add all of the above in manually to the original part config, it works fine in game. So...what am I missing to make it work for MM?

Edited April 22, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[NathanKell]

OtherBarry: sure! Send me the latest when you have it, etc.

RaccoonTOF: That's...quite weird. I see no particular reason that would break. Suggestions.

1. Upload output_log.txt

2. in ModuleEngineConfigs, add type = ModuleEnginesFX

3. Make sure you have 1, and only one, MM.

Also, you don't need !NODE{} since there's no NODE node.

Oh, maybe add spaces to your node_stack_top line?

For throttling...well, since this is a real engine, for everything: check out one of SFJackBauer's RealEngines configs, say, for the RS-25. The only things you'll need to insert are the inside-MEC ModuleEngineIgnitor block, and the MODULE {ModuleEngineIgnitor} block. The he does them, they have custom per-engine techlevels so you can set throttle as desired.

[RaccoonTOF]

I did look at his RS-25 specs, but they don't appear to match up with any of the specs I've found for the actual engine (his max thrust in particular is MUCH higher than even the 109% throttle setting for the real SSME, though the ISP numbers are very close). I'll take a look at the way he does the throttling though, forgot to look at that part As for the !NODE{} I'd already commented that out when I realized that the original part.cfg didn't have one, but apparently didn't update the post above when I did so I'll go try adding the "type = ModuleEnginesFX" now and see how that works, then check the throttling stuff.

EDIT: After looking at his numbers again, it appears that his thrust is so high because his mass is much higher than the actual engine + thrust plate combo too. His T/W ratio comes out accurate, but the total thrust is very high to compensate for his "overweight" engines

Edited April 22, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[NathanKell]

Are you sure you're not looking at the 3x or 5x mount?

My SFJBRealEngines has a single RS-25 at 2279kN.

[RaccoonTOF]

The actual thrust for a single RS-25D is 1817.4kN. And the figures for the quad-mount RS-25E is 7440kN (which he has at 9115kN for the RS-25D quad-mount). Unless I am missing something with how RF treats the thrust numbers here?

EDIT: Also, adding the type = ModuleEnginesFX did not fix the problem, same issues as before. Double checked that I only have one MM DLL in Gamedata. Will pull the output log next.

Edited April 22, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[NathanKell]

Everything I've ever seen says that vac thrust of the RS-25 is 2279. 1817.4 sounds like sea level thrust.

(Check wikipedia, astronautix, and the US LF Engine list).

[RaccoonTOF]

Uh...doh! Yes, all the SLS info that I have here for reference has the main engines and the boosters rated in SL thrust, and the various second stage and Orion engines rated in vac thrust. Totally didn't catch that before Will fix that now (Actually, the 2278 figure is for the 109% throttle "emergency power" setting, so I may still go with the 104% throttle value of 2174, which was the max standard operating throttle for the Shuttle. Then again, the -E variant is meant to be disposable, so the "extra wear" from the 109% throttle setting is probably acceptable too. Would keep them all in line with each other for performance then...)

Also, I tracked down the section that is causing the issue at least - it's the SmarterGimbal module. When I comment out the entire gimbal section from the MM file, it loads fine. It ALSO loads fine if I input the SmarterGimbal settings directly into the original part.cfg file. It only doesn't work when I try to change that module through MM...

[EDIT: This also means that the issue I am having with the stretchy SRB nozzle size to thrust ratio is even WORSE than I thought it was. I was having difficulties already using the SL thrust values for them, resulting in nearly 9m diameter SRBs...it's gonna be even worse after I figure out what the vac thrust for them should be...]

Edited April 22, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[DasBananenbrot]

So you are making engine configs for the SLS parts? Nice Then I only have to do those for the Aerojet Parts. Those together with Taurus could be a nice Orion Mock-up with SM (though I haven't checked yet if the taurus' proportions fit if sized to real size so it can act as Orion capsule) Though don't await the Aerojet Rescale before a week or two...

[RaccoonTOF]

*chuckles* Glad you are doing the Aerojet parts, that was going to be my next project. I also looked at the Taurus as well, I think it can be tweaked to work for the Orion capsule, although for now I've just been using the stock 3-man pod for my Orion with the SDHI and Aerojet parts [EDIT: in my stock kerbal install that is, which is what prompted the whole rescale and reconfig in RSS for me in the first place ]

[DasBananenbrot]

*chuckles* Glad you are doing the Aerojet parts, that was going to be my next project. I also looked at the Taurus as well, I think it can be tweaked to work for the Orion capsule, although for now I've just been using the stock 3-man pod for my Orion with the SDHI and Aerojet parts [EDIT: in my stock kerbal install that is, which is what prompted the whole rescale and reconfig in RSS for me in the first place ]

Yeah I made an rescale to 3.75m for the Aerojet parts and resized the SLS parts to 6m because I quite couldn't get warm with the idea of a 3-man capsule on the SLS Anyway I am going to finish this one today or tomorrow maybe and then start to resize the Aerojet parts for RSS. But I am happy someone makes the SLS parts for RSS because that would take me even longer^^

[RaccoonTOF]

Question for those interested in SLS parts. I've got a lot of good information for measurements of the various sections, which I'm tempted to apply to the stock 3.75m tanks. I figure that most people are using procedural tanks for the majority of their custom stuff, so should I go ahead and make "fixed size" configs for the stock 3.75m tanks to match them up with the different sections on the SLS? Or leave them as-is, and just let people create procedural tanks of the appropriate diameters and lengths?

(Note: the "second stage tank" length listed is actually the whole second stage length prior to the taper above it - I was just using a procedural tank of that length total as a mock-up for sizing other parts )

Sections in orange are repurposed ET sections from the Shuttle main tank, using the Super Lightweight Tank specifications. Sections in white are reinforced structural areas, auxiliary tanks, or areas with other systems internally (I've been using Service Module tanks to mock up those sections for trials). My thought if I do a conversion of the stock pieces is to have the entire Block I Core tank length be one part, in addition to the main engine cluster and the decoupler for the second stage. Then repurpose the other two tanks to model the "Stretch" section for Block II, as well as the second stage cryo tank for the EDS.

Edited April 22, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[NathanKell]

Converting the ARM tanks to be for SLS makes sense, I think. For generic rockets I think we all use stretchies anyway...

[RaccoonTOF]

Yup, that was my general thought on it too. And they are already the correct "style" for it visually of course, which is the only time I really use non-stretchy tanks in the first place anymore

EDIT: Well, in beginning to sort out the proper rescales (since they are different rescale factors in height and in diameter) I also discovered that apparently the volumes of the "stock" parts are about double what they should be for RealFuels tankage? I'm assuming that the part volume is still being measured in liters. The S3-3600 tank measures 3.75m dia by 1.875m tall, with a tank volume in RealFuels showing as 36,000 (which kinda makes sense considering the part name). However, a stretchy tank of the same size gives an available volume of 17,969 and the actual volume of a cylinder of those dimensions (assuming 100% use, no wall thickness or tank "wasted" space) is 20,709L. I'm thinking this might be a large part of why people consider the new parts to be OP, even aside from the engine specs - the new tanks are holding twice as much fuel as they should be able to. Where can I find the information for RealFuels/Procedural Parts that determines the "proper" volume/base weight formulas that it uses? I need to figure out how much "RealFuels volume" to assign, and appropriate amount of base weight to subtract from the real life totals, to allow duplicating the same tankage as will be available to the real SLS while still allowing the RealFuels flexibility in tankage... (though I suppose I could just use a basemass value of -1 and assign the tanks to be fixed for the SLS replication, that would lessen the customizability of the new tanks to be used for other stuff as well).

Second EDIT: The other fixed-size tanks appear to have the usable volumes closely matching the actual volume of a cylinder of the same size, so it appears that it is just the new stock tanks that are magically doubled in storage compared to their actual volume...I bet NASA would LOVE to have some of those IRL

Edited April 23, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[RaccoonTOF]

There are two versions of the NK-33 in RealEngines, one in the KOSMOS pack and one from Bobcat's Soviet engine pack. Are there any concerns with me redoing the stats of the one in the KOSMOS pack (it fits the sizing best) for the Aerojet booster option? It is supposed to be using 4x uprated AJ-26 (the Aerojet designation for their version of the NK-33) engines, designated the AJ-26-500, per booster. This still leaves the Bobcat version with the original stats, for those who want to try to build something else which uses the NK-33 (like an N-1 perhaps?).

Teaser Pics: Block 1A Mockup and Test Flight (Prior to redoing the new stock tanks):

Aerojet Advanced Rocket Boosters Closeup

Block 1A with delta-V stats

Pretty day to go to space

And...we're off!

Orion deployed (released prior to proper circularization as I was mainly testing staging)

Also note that this is a mockup of the ATV-based Orion SM.

Safe recovery.

Edited April 23, 2014 by RaccoonTOF

[NathanKell]

If you're rescaling the tanks to use in SLS, give them the volume of fuel that SLS should have (work backwards from mass, mixture ratio, and density if they don't specify liters). That should be flexible enough, since the mass ratio will be reasonably close to what RF would assign. As to how much volume a tank part "should" have, that's complicated because "tank parts" (we'll call them stages) in KSP aren't actually tanks themselves, they have multiple pressure vessels within them, and how much of the stage is used for propellants varies. For example, a balloon-tank stage like Atlas or Centaur uses basically the entire volume of the stage for tankage, whereas N1 (with its spherical pressure vessels inside conic stages) uses comparatively little.

That sounds like a fine plan for the two NK-33s. (And it wouldn't be N-1; that'd be NK-15s...)

[Benoit Hage]

Hello.

I just installed the required mod for RO and RSS.

But it seems can't see the Kerbin/Earth texture...

Screenshot.

Somebody knows what what?