[TechTree] [0.23.5] Ackander's Vertical Tech Tree - Release v1.16 - May 13, 2014

[DartBoris]

Awesome tree idea , however in my opinion there are some problems , expesially in the beginning.

1. There are people who like starting career unmanned , maybe put stayputnik and basic omni antenna in the electricity or even in logic ?

2. Without vanguard's personal kerbal parachutes its about to unplayable in the start. No shutes for control pods , no decouplers or liquid engines for landing, and (look above) no probes.

3. Overall start is pretty grindny , first decouplers are far away (have to use heatshields as decouplers) and have to repeat all kerbal biomes when i get 1 more science device.

But in other parts the tree is well done , separated categories for stuff is genius.

And one more question - does this tree actually work with interstellar part upgrades? Like upgrading radiators to graphene when reaching "experimental electrics"

[Ackander]

So the idea is very good. but a part of the distribution is somewhat ill-chosen.

Hold on to the beginning nasa at the development. vice in packet start a fuel tank, the simple engine, and the short-range wide antenna for disposal.

Then part in Racketen development and first komikations satelite system for compute-wide short kerbin system(Millonen reach 90).

habe deinen techtree gespielt. ''ve played your tech tree. am 1.5 hrs through forest and had gone on foot to get to the first science with trial and so on.

And sorry for my bad english.

Awesome tree idea , however in my opinion there are some problems , expesially in the beginning.

1. There are people who like starting career unmanned , maybe put stayputnik and basic omni antenna in the electricity or even in logic ?

2. Without vanguard's personal kerbal parachutes its about to unplayable in the start. No shutes for control pods , no decouplers or liquid engines for landing, and (look above) no probes.

3. Overall start is pretty grindny , first decouplers are far away (have to use heatshields as decouplers) and have to repeat all kerbal biomes when i get 1 more science device.

But in other parts the tree is well done , separated categories for stuff is genius.

And one more question - does this tree actually work with interstellar part upgrades? Like upgrading radiators to graphene when reaching "experimental electrics"

These are all valid points, which I have hopefully addressed in the new structure/science costs. Before I had a specific 'story' in mind when I design what parts should be unlocked when, and knowing how much science you could obtain around KSP without having to do more than 4 launches (in the practice I did at least). But what was fun for me to figure out isn't too fun for everyone else it seems. But I didn't know that until I released the tech tree and started to get input about it. I hope I have learned my lesson here and changed the tree accordingly. In this instant I would rather make this for everyone else than just for me.

Costs before were pretty arbitrary, now I willl assign costs based on distance in nodes from start and some arbitration for nodes that should be "easier" for the kerbals to develop, like unmanned and other basic techs. I've taken away the initial grind phase, so now it will take one launch to get enough science for liquid rockets and chutes. The 'fun' part of the tech tree should be reading most of the descriptions in it.. not science grinding.

[Overlord]

Is it 0.23 compatible?

[Prismatech]

dear Ackander thing your work on a new version

please Think that now no more science spam give .now can only rescience when the new lab scienc is.

think now are the steps at resarch prise more importen.

[fronbow]

I'm going to have a look at this in 0.23 later - the fact that science can't be spammed like before could be an interesting dilemma for all custom trees!

That said, it might just be the case that we can't jump from say requiring 160sp for one tier and then a huge leap to 500sp for the next tier - I can see a lot of playtesting to get the right balance of numbers!

[Prismatech]

yes is intresting. hope that the new blance by all treemaker must fair between grind and nerv grind . whenn higher sience use must in plant extra science.

[Ackander]

As far as I can tell preliminarily, TreeEdit/TreeLoader works in .23. Everything is where it is supposed to be. Only thing I see as a problem is I haven't figured out how to scroll down on part tool-tips.

Today I will finish with costs, start on the poster, and then I can post it, hopefully tomorrow or later this week. I've been busy in the real world, so haven't been able to work on it for a couple of days.

And I've already taken the new science retreival problems into account... hopefully.

[DartBoris]

Looking forward to see this tree updated =)

[jalapen0]

I'm counting the minutes till I can try this new version for .23.

[Talisar]

I started a new save using this with .23 and haven't had too many issues even without being able to spam science. A couple of my methods for maximization seemed a bit cheaty, but it went much easier than my first try (before .23). I look forward to the update when it comes, though

[Creat]

I've only just now stumbled upon this and it looks like it is exactly what I'm looking for in a tech tree. As I'm about to start a new career with the new version being out (as I'm sure everyone else is as well), I'd love to use it (or at least look at it in more detail).

Am I understanding all the edits/cancellations in the first post correctly in that it currently needs TreeEdit to load correctly and TreeLoader won't do? Is this because it's just not in the online repository and therefore can't be selected when a new save is created? If that is correct, can I assume that this will change in the sonn(ish) future since you've posted that you've made some progress towards that? Considering I've waited for a month or two for this version fixing the science spam I don't mind waiting a little longer to have a very nice tree to go with the mods I plan on using (KW, RemoteTech, KAS and possibly Kethane).

Just a quick question, where do antennae come in the tree? It does make quite a difference with the new science progression and when using Remote Tech...

I did try to read a bit through the thread but despite being only about 10 pages some posts are huge in and of themselves, so I thought it might be quicker to just ask, hope that's acceptable

[Talisar]

Am I understanding all the edits/cancellations in the first post correctly in that it currently needs TreeEdit to load correctly and TreeLoader won't do? Is this because it's just not in the online repository and therefore can't be selected when a new save is created?

This is the first time I've used a custom tree, but I just have TreeEdit.dll in my gamedata directory. I wasn't able to load this tree from the initial dropdown when I started a new save, but it is in the dropdown you can select from the science facility.

Just a quick question, where do antennae come in the tree? It does make quite a difference with the new science progression and when using Remote Tech...

I did try to read a bit through the thread but despite being only about 10 pages some posts are huge in and of themselves, so I thought it might be quicker to just ask, hope that's acceptable

I forget the names of the nodes, but if you just keep buying the ones to the left, the antennas start at the 5th or 6th one, and then go up for the higher level ones.

[Creat]

Alright. I'm going to need some input on this. I will be forever grateful:

Minimum equipment to "be comfortable" gathering science at a regularish rate?

How long does it take you to "comfortably" gather 500 science?

Linear or exponential price progression?

What types of parts do you consider essential?

Non-essential?

[...]

If anyone can think of anything else that would be useful, do not hesitate to say it.

While I'm trying this out, I thought I might try to answer this as best I can. Let me preface it by saying that this surely varies a lot with play style and used mods.

I'd split the equipment needed for gathering science easily into two levels: Early on I'd consider decouplers (radial and coaxial), batteries and at least the tiny solar panels, an antenna, and landing legs as essential. This allows return missions to/from the moons (which provide plenty of science with their biomes). Technically the solar panels are not essential, but allow you to not carry about 20 batteries (just to be sure, of course ).

The second level would be for interplanetary missions, requiring the lab module, docking and solid solar panel technology. While rover-tech would possibly be helpful, it's far from essential. Ironically probe cores would probably be needed to stop vessels without pod from getting turned into 'junk' by the game engine. The very concept of interplanetary travel (due to the heavier craft) also requires at least one or two more powerful engines for the initial launch, one intermediate engine (average thrust and isp) for orbital injection and one somewhat efficient engine for the interplanetary burns (incl. return).

Even with mods like KAS, Kethane and the like this list wouldn't look that different. To use Kethane at all you need one of each of the base elements (scanner, tank, converter and possibly docking) but it doesn't help that much with gathering science.

This is quite different when RemoteTech is used though, as you basically need antenna and probe cores early on to create a simple communication network (unless you want to have manned communication satellites). Otherwise even going to the Mun becomes quite tedious or fiddly even if all you want to transmit are the 100% crew reports...

Gathering 500 science is a simple return-trip to the Mun or Minmus I'd say, thanks to biomes this can be performed quite a few times before we run out of stuff to return. With vessel design/construction, testing and performing the mission at least the first time will still be a couple of hours (maybe 2-3), depending on the level of equipment available. While interplanetary missions tend to give more of course, they also take much longer to plan (incl. vessel design) and execute. Such a mission might bring double the science but at least for me it takes more than twice the (real) time.

As for what equipment is essential, that's more or less answered above already but at the lowest level I'd say obviously separators, batteries and (the tiny) solar panels, some landing legs and possibly antennae (esp. with remote tech, then also probe cores).

I hope this helps and my answer is the type of response you are looking for. Keep up the good work, I'm still eager to try this with just the TreeLoader, so please do keep us up to date with how that's going

[Ackander]

I have just on a few minutes before I crash, I will do more answering tomorrow.

Thanks for the input Creat, it is what I am looking for.

As far as TreeEdit/Loader go, there was an issue with just having TreeLoader and not TreeEdit. I only have guesses to explain what was going wrong, but using ModuleManager, I made it so just having TreeLoader and the tree.cfg from my download will work. There still might be issues if you have any other MM cfgs that change required tech and use :Final. I can only suggest not using those with the Vertical Tree. VetTech is the mod I have in mind as far as possible interference goes. I am sure there might be others out there too.

Hopefully I can find a science cost configuration that I am happy with. I have finished rearranging nodes and connects, all that is left to do is input costs, and redraw the poster. I will make sure to release the next version before I do the poster.. my perfectionism hates it when I finish anything.

These nodes I plan to be 'basic' tech nodes, so they will not be to hard to get. They are all 4 steps or less from the start node, and I think they cost between 150 and 200 science in all, still not final. But, still no parachutes in this batch of nodes . No parts were moved around, so you should be able to tell from below what you can get with a couple hundred science for sure. stock parachutes are 6 steps from start, so they should either cost 100 or slightly more science in all to get to.. still working on this. There are a lot of variables to work through, not least of all how the Vertical TechTree compares to the stock tree. Over all, the transition from having a pod and truss to a real space program should be more smoothe, and not require you to look under every loose rock for every bit of science around the KSC or build weird podrovers. But then again, this just means it's liable to be too easy now. We shall see.

node8_experimentalScience

node8_robotics

node4_aerodynamicSystems

node3_flightControl

newnode_atmosphericScienceTechnology

node5_advElectrics

newnode_probeRockets

node4_fuelSystems

node2_generalRocketry

newnode_kerbolarVoltaics

node4_landing

newnode_basicCommunications

node6_ionPropulsion

newnode_basicScienceTechnology

node2_stability

node5_precisionEngineering

node4_electrics

newnode_liquidRockets

node3_scienceTech

node1_basicRocketry

newnode_logic

node0_start

[CARLITRON]

This tree will be update to 0.23? And when?

[Ackander]

This tree will be update to 0.23? And when?

Yes, today. One last look over, and I just have to write new install instructions and add a "distance to node" list showing how much science you need to reach each node.

[Talisar]

Yay! I've been playing with the old one and eagerly awaiting your updated one Thanks Ackander!

[Ackander]

Ackander's Vertical TechTree is now updated to version 1.12.18.b.

Hopefully I did a better job with this version. I tried it out for a couple hours the other day and to me it seemed fun enough to me.

My plan for the next few days/weeks is to write up a quick excel worksheet that will generate ModuleManager 'code' that will change the cost of nodes per the user's input.

To look through the forum for more mod parts. I know for a fact that I missed many good mods when getting parts to sort into the TechTree. If I get a bunch of parts sorted, I will go ahead and put out another update. I do not plan on making changes to nodes and prices any time soon, especially if I make something that will output ModuleManager changes for everyone to use.

Remember to leave feedback if you think I need to make changes. Or at least let me know if I did something right.

I absolutely cannot garanetee funness though, just a vertical technologies tree.. It is hard to figure out a good costs for a lot of nodes since some nodes have only one or two parts in them from one or two mods. If nobody uses that mod, then that node is empty and hopefully is not a parent node. There are three parent nodes that will be empty if playing with just stock parts, one is composites, which leads to a couple cones, and survivability which has mod parachutes in at first and for some reason I cannot remember the third. I think it is in spaceframes 2nd from the top. But, I tried to put parts together from the same mod, even if they do not have the same "value" of the other parts in the node, I figured it was more important to have as few holes as possible.

Some other changes I made.. I moved unmanned to right after basic electrics and precision engineering to right after science, which includes a mechjeb in electronics.

Something I just thought of.. I do not know what effect loading my ModuleManager config file will have on games using the stock tree. I'm guessing it will mess it up. I need to test this and see if there is a way to avoid this without move the file every time youload KSP. If anyone has any ideas, let me know. If you have any mod support requests, send them my way.

Addio, miei amici,

Well, let me know what you think

Edit: I forgot and remembered about 3 times to say that I will be updating the TechTree if there is an abundance of new parts with mods updating to KSP0.23. Shouldn't take too long. I know I should have updated before releasing, but I wasn't thinking straight, like right now.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Ackander

[Erozz]

Or at least let me know if I did something right.

This will be awesome ! ! .... When i get it installed . I get stuck while loading modules at loading What mod /mods I should be removing first. I do not want to effect your tech tree much

I already have low-res options installed and some RAM Active Memory Reduction Mod.

Thank you a lot! I can't wait to get to play this campaign trough.

[Erozz]

If i want to remove any of these mods, which I should delete. I do not want to effect the tech tree experience too much?

[Ackander]

Does it get stuck on the same part/mod every time? It was HOME for me. All I did though was change the resource the nuclear power generator from nuclear fuel to liquidfuel. Dunno if it is the same for you though.

[Talisar]

Do you have RemoteTech2 installed?

If so, is it the version from spaceport? (This version is out of date and incompatable with v0.23)

If both of the above are true, download the experimental version linked in THIS POST. That fixed it when I was having the same issue. Mine was locking up on a Novapunch part, so it wasn't immediately obvious that it was RT2's issue.

[Erozz]

Thank you a lot for fast answers I dont know if I'm supposed to get all the addons work at the same time I'm trying at least. Got in game already!

Edit: People who have this installed can you please send me a pic/list of your game data folder. I can't decide what add-ons I should have with this tree.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Erozz

[MacMan131]

What are the mods that you would say you HAVE to have to make this huge tech tree worth playing completely throw?

[Ackander]

What are the mods that you would say you HAVE to have to make this huge tech tree worth playing completely throw?

If by completely you mean without any holes, then I would suggests off the top of my head NovaPunch, KSPx, KW Rocketry, Space Shuttle Engines, Tiberdyne Shuttle Systems, Robotic Arms Pack, Infernal Robotics, Stretchy Tanks, HexCans or Spherical/Toroidal tanks, , Near Future, B9, Anvil, Deady Reentry, Tac LifeSupport, Ion Hybrid Engines, Kethane, MechJeb, Kosmos or FusTek, H.O.M.E., Torpedo's Mk4/Mk3 stuff, Procedural Fairings, Stockalike, TV Aerospace, LLL, Kerbal attachment system, KSP Interstellar, and maybe Remote Tech. Honestly I never took a precise inventory of what mods are in what nodes.. if I find an easy way to do that I will put that out there. I haven't decided what I will play with yet. On our way out the door now to dinner, so later, dudes. I will try to make a "HAVE to have" list later this week.