Beyond Kerbin: Convenient Locations for Space Stations

[thiosk]

Hi everyone!

Now that I've learned how to run complex docking procedures, balance RCS, and build enormous, recoverable transfer stages, the kerbol system is my oyster.

I've begun a programme of space stations to put footholds in various interesting systems to facilitate later complex landings and recovery missions. Eve is my first target, because, well, its close, and getting back off of it is a fairly monstrous challenge. Also purple is cooler than red.

My question pertains to where in the joolian system would it be useful to place a space station to facilitate landings on its various moons. Would you want a rather gigantic orbit around jool itself, or fairly deep in the well to facilitate aerobraking and subsequent interception of the station? I feel like a lower orbit station would make refuelling and subsequently plotting trips to moons easier, at the cost of needing more gas to actually get there since all the transit velocity is lost.

Also of interest is where else in the kerbin system you find interesting to put stations. I read a LOT about minmus bases, but I'm not running kethane, so the allure isn't really there for me.

Edited December 3, 2013 by thiosk

[panzerknoef]

Hmmm this is a hard one since i haven't gotten a space station round jool myself. But i think it's best if you put it just outside the orbit of jool's furthest moon, this way you have easy acces to the entire system and you don't have to use a lot of fuel cuz you can aerobrake your way to lower orbits. But as i said, i have no experience in a jool station yet!

[Deadpangod3]

Honestly I would put it in orbit of Laythe, you can admire the beauty while you refuel,

Or you could download Krags planet factory and build a station around the planet Joker orbiting Serious which is a star

[celem]

I have a station round jool in my kethane modded game. I feel its a good spot for vanilla/stock too.

Mine sits in a highly elliptical orbit with apoapsis at pol's orbit and periapsis just above jool's atmosphere. This means I can have ships dock to it either straight out of a capture aerobrake or coming off just about any of the moons when timed right. Ships undocking usually do so at periaps and strategically aerobrake their apoaps down to meet their target moon's orbit. It costs me very little to land anywhere in the joolian system with this technique (once I get them to the station that is)

[panzerknoef]

I have a station round jool in my kethane modded game. I feel its a good spot for vanilla/stock too.

Mine sits in a highly elliptical orbit with apoapsis at pol's orbit and periapsis just above jool's atmosphere. This means I can have ships dock to it either straight out of a capture aerobrake or coming off just about any of the moons when timed right. Ships undocking usually do so at periaps and strategically aerobrake their apoaps down to meet their target moon's orbit. It costs me very little to land anywhere in the joolian system with this technique (once I get them to the station that is)

Don't you have problems with intercepts of moons throwing you way out of jools SOI, maybe even out of the suns SOI? Or at least ruining your orbit.

[Deadpangod3]

Don't you have problems with intercepts of moons throwing you way out of jools SOI, maybe even out of the suns SOI? Or at least ruining your orbit.

The real question is...

HOW THE HELL DO YOU EVEN INTERCEPT THE STATION!?

[larsmaehlum]

I usually put mine fairly close to Jool. Just add a nuclear tug to bring payloads to their destination efficiently, and you're golden

[Requiem762]

The real question is...

HOW THE HELL DO YOU EVEN INTERCEPT THE STATION!?

The same way you would a planet I guess

[annallia]

I usually put mine fairly close to Jool. Just add a nuclear tug to bring payloads to their destination efficiently, and you're golden

I generally do the same. Actually for Jool system I do both Laythe and Jool. The big one will be in orbit of Jool, the laythe station is more or less an orbital refinery for Kethane and I use nuclear tugs to deliver fuel to the Jool station.

[Deadpangod3]

The same way you would a planet I guess

I can barely even intercept a station on a circular orbit...

[User Unrelated]

If you want to start out with a "smaller" operation, I recently put up a station 'round Minmus. It's paired with some kethane mining equipment on the surface to re-fuel

I didn't have too much trouble getting the 2 parts over there, and docking them

and it's so close to the edge of Kerbin SOI, that it doesn't take much at all to escape into Kerbol orbit once refueled. (instead of refueling in LKO, and having to burn off a bunch of that fuel just to escape the SOI)

The only thing here, is because Minmus is so small, the orbits end up being relatively tight, and if you take a while to dock, the ships tend to rotate around each other because of the tight orbit. It wasn't TOO big of a deal.

I had originally planned on using rover tugs to transport Kethane back and forth from the miner to orbit, but I think I am going to try and retrofit-dock my miner with a docking port more convenient for docking with stations, and just use that as a transport device instead, because none of the kethane is on the plains like I had hoped, it's all up in the mountains.

Edited December 3, 2013 by User Unrelated

[LethalDose]

I really don't understand the appeal of a station with a highly eccentric orbit around any body because setting up the rendezvous would be a MASSIVE headache. There are reasons for these orbits elsewhere, but I can't imagine their advantages could possibly outweigh the advantage of easy rendezvous in circular orbits.

I haven't actually set up a Joolian station, but I was planning it when my career game got corrupted (I'm waiting for 0.23 to drop before restarting so I can send a science lab out there). I think a circular orbit outside of Pol makes the most sense, for reasons already stated:

1. Easy approaches from Kerbolar orbits due to less delta V required to make high orbits
   
2. Easier rendezvous in circular orbits
   
3. Easy approaches to the lower moons by aerobraking in Jool's atmosphere
   
4. Easier exits from the Jool system in high orbits near the edge of Jool's SOI (same reason the Minmus base is appealing)
   
5. No concerns about encountering Jool's moons on base approaches
   

I think the big downside to a high orbit would be a long orbital period, which could mean that approaches could take a while. I think it you can solve the problem by dropping into a lower orbit to get around the planet quickly, then burning prograde to come out in front of the station and then retrograde to approach. That is, however, three more burns you have to perform.

There are advantages to other locations deeper in the system (e.g. more frequent approach windows), but, in all, I think living on the edge is a better idea. Let us know what you end up deciding on!

[Pikey]

I would say put a station in Laythe orbit, as it will be the moon most visited (within the Jool system) and any mining operations on other moons would probably be fuelling something on Laythe. It is also very easy to get to after an aero brake from Jool, and it looks really nice when you get Jool rising over the seas of Laythe as you refuel.

[celem]

Ok, regarding my eccentric station. Im not entirely sure how much benefit I get from it with regards to efficiency, it seemed like a good idea at the time so I did it.

I do have to keep an eye on it with kerbal alarmclock to watch for wayward moons, it does quite a bit of slaloming.

Yes, intercepting is horrific, but im pretty good at it now. Once you've tried to aerobrake an intercept onto something that erratic then docking anything anywhere becomes routinue. Often incoming ships aero-capture and then spend several orbits dodging moons while they tweak to intercept. The setup requires a great deal of attention.

im sure circular at pol would be more sane, but it originally ran out of fuel in its current position. Since refueled but too much !fun! to move.

Re: the minmus station above. If a body is really small and tight orbits/small soi becomes a problem then a trojan station is a good solution. It sits just outside the soi of the moon and chases the moon with a matched orbit, its the closest to stationary you can get with the little moons.

Edited December 3, 2013 by celem

[jduchock]

... Or you could download Krags planet factory and build a station around the planet Joker orbiting Serious which is a star

Ugh...building a station out there would mean either

1. constructing it locally (LKO) and slow-driving it out there (ETA eternity -1)

2. making a lot of trips out there to ship components one at a time (ETA weeks)

3. using interstellar warp or orion pulse engines (too easy)

4. building bases along the way to build / fuel / equip via remote launch pads (nomnomnom)

i will be working on #4, but will take quite a bit of time. i plan to use Joolean moons as orbiting fuel stations (via Kethane harvesters) for a way-point out there. I only have one fuel station in orbit so far and expect to move the first kethane tug there this evening

I am not sure of the gravity of the Kragean orbital bodies nor do i want to know (wanna find out when i GET there !) but i am sure to pick one as an off-world base.

Good luck !

[SkyRender]

My vote is for Laythe. It has a semi-synchronous orbit with Jool and a very large SOI, meaning it's easy to reach from just about anywhere in the Jool system. Plus, it has aerobraking potential, unlike any of the other moons. And being the closest in, it gives you the ability to quickly hop to any of the other moons without too much extra dV.

[Guest]

If you're using Kethane for refueling I'd suggest either Pol or Bop (Bop probably since the orbit is less messed up). That way you can refuel the station much easier. Vall would be my third candidate. Putting the station lower in Jool's gravity well wastes a lot of delta-V coming back out and you can always do a shallow aerobrake aiming for capture and then circularize at a higher orbit.

[thiosk]

I'd like to ask specifically about how to deal with non-planetary based transits. In practice, what kind of tips do people have for making interplanetary jaunts from moons? For instance, if I'm in orbit around around minmus and I want to plot a course, do I burn into high parking orbit circular kerbin for figuring out phase angles, or plot the ejection point from the position minmus is in in its orbit around kerbin, and then hop prograde or retrograde from minmus according to needs (its gravity is low enough, I can probably eject at any angle i feel like?) The same question applies for laythe base and solving when and where to eject when the time comes. I just started to understand phase angles and launch windows more recently, and am now good at manipulating orbits and piloting for docking, so sorting out this more complex window planning is important. I hope to use an eve grav assist for a trip to jool in the future, making this doubly important.

I will build a Jool base, probably on .23 and focus on Eve for my current game. My interplanetary tug is remarkably robust, although the structure has the no-strut-jitters presently, and possibly suffers from a higher part count than it should have. But I lurve it.

I can barely even intercept a station on a circular orbit...

The major tip I can give you is: find a video tutorial on docking, and watch it, then, make a big deal about balanced RCS ships and practice flying them. Over the past week I've gone from misery in docking to approaching perfection, the only difference is I now understand how to quickly obtain a reasonable intercept and then how to correct the orbit rapidly for an approach, and finally how to not twist my ship all over creation in getting it to line up. I don't use the lazor docking camera, but I use one mod that gives a graphical representation of the heading I need to hit to get the business end lined up.

Edited December 4, 2013 by thiosk

[Pwnstarr]

After rendezvous, the best tip I ever heard for the docking step was to put your camera in chase mode, rotate your ship so your RCS thrusters work in the direction you expect.

Also set "control from here" on the clamp you plan to use, and set the clamp you're aiming for as the target.

Then just aim for prograde in the target circle.

Docking is super easy without mods.

[Tank Buddy]

I am in the process of building a base around Gilly, just for kicks and giggles. I brought enough xenon gas for my ion landers (which worked out very well and I would recommend) to last a lifetime, definitely more than I will ever be able to use. I don't think a station around Eve would be practical because it has more gravity than Kerbin, and you can't launch resources from the surface, so the only real use would be a stop on the way to Moho.

Duna would be fun because of the lower(er) gravity, allowing for many repeatable surface landings, and Ike is easily accessible, if you haven't noticed, its proximity to Duna and relative gravity well makes intercepts easier than the Mun.

I have several stations around both of Kerbin's moons, one for receiving incoming craft from outside of the moon's SOI, and a lower station for refueling landers with less Delta-V, although intercepts with higher orbiting stations are much easier, and it is worth the extra fuel since refueling stations there is a cakewalk.

[RocketPilot573]

Laythe definitely, it's very helpful when exploring the Jool system. Here's my Venturer Space Station sitting in LLO.

Due to the angle of the camera, some of the fuel tanks are not visible in this pic...

Edited December 4, 2013 by RocketPilot573

[thiosk]

I has a pretty view, thats for sure! The part count looks high for a permanent installation. Do you plan on detatching and using the transfer stages?

[RocketPilot573]

I has a pretty view, thats for sure! The part count looks high for a permanent installation. Do you plan on detatching and using the transfer stages?

Oh, those are the tugs that put it together. The others are returning to Kerbin for reuse, while that ones on the station will be used whenever they are needed(such as for exploring the other moons).

[Spatzimaus]

In my savegame, I've got several dedicated stations around Kerbin itself of course. But I've also got mobile Kethane refineries in several other spots; these are 300-ton vessels designed to land on low-gravity moons, fill up with Kethane, refine as necessary, take off, and place themselves in convenient orbits to act as pseudo-stations. Like this one, over Laythe:

They're also just useful as low Kerbin orbit fuel depots for spaceplanes and such; no need to refine anything, just launch with a full tank and de-orbit when they run low. And they're much easier to dock with than a big station.

So in my game, I've currently got five of these depots outside of the Kerbin-Mun-Minmus SOI (each of which has several, mainly for testing purposes). I have one around Duna (refills on Ike), one around Eve (refills on Gilly), and three at Jool (one in low Laythe orbit, one out near Pol's orbit, and an intermediate one near Vall's orbit; all refill on Pol). It makes it very easy to do interplanetary trips, when you can fill your tanks at each step. I'm planning on putting another at Duna and another at Eve, to cover both high and low orbits, but there's no real reason to place any at Moho, Dres, or Eeloo.

But I'm also planning on launching several of my giant (870 tons) space stations to other planets in the near future. They've got plenty of engine power and fuel, but I'm still refining the basic design a bit before the trip. The reason is, one day we'll get an official resource system. When that happens, it's unlikely we'll be able to have self-sufficient mobile vessels simply because the fuels would require multiple ingredients from different locations. That means that space stations will be our refineries, with ships only serving to move the raw materials to and from them, and that means it's important to get some practice with large stations now. Of course, that'll depend heavily on the specifics of the resource system...

[magnemoe]

My vote is for Laythe. It has a semi-synchronous orbit with Jool and a very large SOI, meaning it's easy to reach from just about anywhere in the Jool system. Plus, it has aerobraking potential, unlike any of the other moons. And being the closest in, it gives you the ability to quickly hop to any of the other moons without too much extra dV.

Yes Laythe is the obvious hub, first its very interesting in its own right.

As you can aerobrake it makes an decent place to stopping before going to the other Jool moons.