Reaching seats on complex vehicles

[lajoswinkler]

So I've developed a 11 km/s delta-v vehicle for Eve ascent and my Kerbals are on a 4 km tall plateau, meaning I have a good chance of actually saving them. I have no idea will I be able to land it without it breaking apart like an egg, though, but it has lots of strategically positioned struts, three drogue parachutes and 6 regular chutes.

I have a huge problem with mounting the seats. Kerbals need to be very close to be able to climb aboard, and I have no idea how to do it. Mind that Eve has a stronger gravity field and that transfering differently poisitioned ladders even on Kerbin means falling down.

What to do?

[lajoswinkler]

I've made it somehow, now Kerbals can use 5 ladders to reach the seats... At least at 1 G. I have no idea what's going to happen on Eve, if I manage to land this monster intact which doesn't seem likely because with all parachutes deployed, descent speed is almost 21 m/s on Kerbin. The rocket which carries it has more than 300 parts so I'm launching it at 2 fps.

Eve ascent vehicle has almost 11300 m/s delta-v now.

[Col_Jessep]

with all parachutes deployed, descent speed is almost 21 m/s on Kerbin.

You should get that down to 10m/s or bring enough fuel to slow down with the engines.

[thereaverofdarkness]

Put on twice as many landing legs as it needs to hold itself up on Kerbin.

[700NitroXpress]

Those landing legs are going to snap as soon as they touch the ground on Eve and your craft is going to destroy itself. Also, that craft in the picture won't get half way off of Eve.

[Sirine]

Those landing legs are going to snap as soon as they touch the ground on Eve and your craft is going to destroy itself. Also, that craft in the picture won't get half way off of Eve.

Agree. 700NitroXpress and me are just back from Eve...for the challenge.

[Sirine]

3 Craft for your reference...1st 2 link .craft file available.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/47105-Eve-Landing-Lifting-%28part-count-148-60-87-ton-with-crew-3340-fuel%29-without-MechJeb

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/48503-Eve

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/60331-Eve-Misison-Report-Live-update-with-persistent-file-along-the-way

[lajoswinkler]

Well, the craft I built has variable acceleration (at maximum thrust), but always 1.5x Eve's gravitational acceleration, and the total delta-v is almost 11.3 km/s. And I'm starting at 4 km plateau. Shouldn't that be enough?

You don't see it in the screenshot, but there are those tiny radial orange engines on the craft.

I suppose I should put on more landing legs and 6 more radial parachutes. My CPU is going to explode when I try to lift this from Kerbin.

What worries me the most is the topic of this thread. I don't think Kerbals will hold on horizontally placed ladders, and that seems to be the only way to reach the seats. Any experience with that issue?

(I've succumbed to MechJeb, precise manual Eve landing is simply too hard, my record is 1.7 km from the base.)

OK, it's not literally "no idea" but...

Edited December 8, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[Vrana]

Dont know if its possible with your craft but maybe you can place a 2nd set of seats further down, closer to the early stages and closer to the ground while landed on Eve.

Then move the Kerbals via EVA to the upper stage seats if you need to dump the stage holding the first set of seats.

Ofc, you need to be very high up or maybe even completely outside Eve atmo before you can preform the seat switching manouver.

[norup]

Looks to me like you could drop down on the top of the lower stage and then use a ladder inclined 30-45deg to get to the top of the next stage etc.

Good for you that you are considering this now. I only found out that my ladders could not be climbed when my kerbal went down to plant a flag on Eve. Had so send a rover with a ladder to allow him to get up again. The rover landed 30km away line-of-sight and the drive was about 50 km to get around a lake. Got home safely in the end.

[superm18]

put the ladders upside down and turn them so the fit. That way you won't get the weight of the ladders in the upper stages

[Rhomphaia]

put the ladders upside down and turn them so the fit. That way you won't get the weight of the ladders in the upper stages

The thing about ladders is that in flight they are massless and dragless, so that is unnecessary.

[lajoswinkler]

So far Kerbals can use 5 ladders, but Eve is a tough cookie. I remember how annoying their falling off was in v0.18.

[Traches]

Instead of landing legs, try putting I-beams on the first stages you'll be dropping. They're a little heavier and they don't absorb shocks, but they're unbelievably strong. Test them on the pad if you like-- fly up to 10-20m and cut throttles. If anything breaks it'll be your ship, which can always be fixed with moar struts

[kurja]

Looks to me like you could drop down on the top of the lower stage and then use a ladder inclined 30-45deg to get to the top of the next stage etc.

Good for you that you are considering this now. I only found out that my ladders could not be climbed when my kerbal went down to plant a flag on Eve. Had so send a rover with a ladder to allow him to get up again. The rover landed 30km away line-of-sight and the drive was about 50 km to get around a lake. Got home safely in the end.

Happened to me too... I went to console and hacked gravity so I could jetpack to the capsule

[700NitroXpress]

You're forgetting one critical thing about Eve tho. You're only accounting for the gravity of Eve, but not the air resistance that you'll also have to battle. Even at 4km above sea level, you're still going to be in super thick atmosphere for a lot longer than you'll be on Kerban. You're lucky if your craft gets above 100 m/s in Eve atmosphere with those engines. Your craft will feel like it weighs 70% more and it'll feel like you're fighting drag from parachutes deployed during launch.

Getting your kerbals up to the seat on top of a craft can be done from an angle if you angle the ladders. You can also attach I beams together and put them on a radial decoupler, then put ladders on the I beams and they can climb from the ground all the way to the top on just one ladder. Then when you launch, just jettison the I beam ladder part along with your landing gear and parachutes. That's what I did for mine, you can see that even tho I broke two of the small I beams, the ladders weren't attached to them so they still work. The I beam to structural plate landing legs allow this thing to bounce at 14 m/s when it hits the ground on Kerban and be undamaged. On Eve, I landed at 9 m/s and nothing essential broke. The Kerbals can climb from the ground all the way up to the top on dual symmetry ladder parts, you can also see that I have one ladder at an angle.

[superm18]

don't use beams, use the small gear bay instead

[Danish_Savage]

I've made it somehow, now Kerbals can use 5 ladders to reach the seats... At least at 1 G. I have no idea what's going to happen on Eve, if I manage to land this monster intact which doesn't seem likely because with all parachutes deployed, descent speed is almost 21 m/s on Kerbin. The rocket which carries it has more than 300 parts so I'm launching it at 2 fps.

Eve ascent vehicle has almost 11300 m/s delta-v now.

The atmosphere of Eve is a soup. You can land it.

Use the big blue ones though, Drogues aren't worth **** one Eve

[lajoswinkler]

Drogues are there to slow down before deploying the main chutes. I'm afraid everything will get ripped away otherwise.

I've done some changes on the rocket that lifts it into Kerbin's orbit and there's more than 300 parts. I'm at <3 fps at low settings.

I have lots of experience with landing on Eve, but nothing regarding ascent except watching Youtube videos and looking at KSP forums.

Thanks, guys, I'll try to land this just to see how high can this design reach... If I manage to lift it...

Edited December 9, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[kahlzun]

If you need a different type of lander, this guy has made a good one:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/40379-Semi-circular-Ladder-90-degree-ladder?p=585507&viewfull=1#post585507

[toolofdarkness]

if you use a pull style of space craft that means your cargo in this case your kerbals are close to the pod because said pod is at the bottom or close to it and you dont have the pesky engines falling off all the time but the ship is more unstable in the long run and needs more struts and more legs which equels more wieght but that can be dealt with

[Kasuha]

I know I'm joining late but I'd suggest to save on part count by reducing number of struts you use. If you have a stack connected by a decoupler, put the decoupler at bottom of the stack on both sides, that'll make the stack hold itself and you don't need to strut it that hard.

Also I'd suggest to separate the descent and ascent parts from each other. Put all chutes and landing legs on something that'll separate cleanly as soon as you start liftoff engines - that'll ensure you're not lifting unnecessary weight.

Regarding ladders I'd suggest to make the central column all 1.25m wide, keep pure 3-fold symmetry and put ladders just on the center column all the way up in one run. Do not expect that your Kerbals will be able to exit the ladder and step on top of a column - what can be done on Kerbin when the ship is level on launchpad does not necessarily have to be possible when the ship is inclined on terrain. I had some pretty unpleasant experience with this on Tylo, my Kerbals were unable to reach top of the stack even though there was an inclined ladder piece installed.