KerbalCon feature-complete talk - Can you please turn this into a blog post/article?

[regex]

The original resource system that was described near the beginning of the year seemed overly complicated to me and my original impression seems to mirror what Harvester was saying. It sounds like it would add a lot of busy work and management without adding much actual gameplay. I am a big fan of the Kethane mod and i get the impression this is more the direction the group will take when they decide it is time to be implemented.

The Kethane mod is a lot of busywork as well. It literally boils down to timewarping + waiting mechanics. This is not to say it's a bad or poorly written mod, just that it's not exactly fun. I personally got the impression that they're thinking in an entirely different direction than Kethane, and I certainly hope they do take it in a different direction.

[DoomtrainInc]

The Kethane mod is a lot of busywork as well. It literally boils down to timewarping + waiting mechanics. This is not to say it's a bad or poorly written mod, just that it's not exactly fun. I personally got the impression that they're thinking in an entirely different direction than Kethane, and I certainly hope they do take it in a different direction.

With one Kethane ship you can produce all of the fuel resources including monoprop. I had the impression that Squads original resource system had all fuel types separated and would have required multiple rigs/mining ships to collect. This would get even worse if/when nuclear fuels are added. If you had different resources stretched between biomes it would be a major task to collect them all.

[regex]

I had the impression that Squads original resource system had all fuel types separated and would have required multiple rigs/mining ships to collect. This would get even worse if/when nuclear fuels are added. If you had different resources stretched between biomes it would be a major task to collect them all.

Right, and that's what they are trying to avoid (as I understand it). My point is that Kethane is a perfectly serviceable resource system but it's not exactly fun (at the moment), and Harvester specifically talked about their resource system not being fun which is why they scrapped it. Hence my saying that I hope they don't model any KSP resource system off of the current Kethane mod.

[DoomtrainInc]

I hope they don't model any KSP resource system off of the current Kethane mod.

We are in agreement I think XD. I hope that whatever gets added ends up being a smooth way to improve game play and encourage exploration. Hopefully it will be implemented into the career/economy system. It would be so cool if you could mine mun rocks and bring them back for science AND profit.

[ilikemoneygreen]

The resources system was talked about here: http://www.twitch.tv/ksptv/b/487174346 . Go to 13:00. They said they had it implemented but the over all feel was not as desired. They played a lot with it and then put it on the back burner. They felt it was not what it should be which IMO it doesn't really matter much because this game has a great modding community. If we want resources, there is someone likely to add a resource mod. I bet the devs will let it sit for a while and then come up with a good solution. This will likely happen when they have less of a mountain of other stuff to do.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ilikemoneygreen
grammer

[Caelib]

The resources system was talked about here: http://www.twitch.tv/ksptv/b/487174346 . Go to 13:00. They said they had it implemented but the over all feel was not as desired. They played a lot with it and then put it on the back burner. They felt it was not what it should be which IMO it doesn't really matter much because this game has a great modding community. If we want resources, there is someone likely to add a resource mod. I bet the devs will let it sit for a while and then come up with a good solution. This will likely happen when they have less of a mountain of other stuff to do.

My thoughts exactly -- once Career mode is finished and they start on Multiplayer -- we might see some elements of resource collection added.

[redteddy23]

I used to be a modeler many years ago on a realism mod of the Battlefield 1942 mod called Desert Combat. After that I worked on a Red Orchestra mod that never really took off called Mare Nostrum. I know enough from those experiences that it's rare for an "ideas guy" to gain much traction.

I remember Desert Combat an excellent mod that I think influenced the future of the Battlefield series. Flying a squad into position with a chopper required true skill.

[RoboRay]

If resource management is too complicated for the average player, how do they manage to handle orbital mechanics?

But, anyway, of course resources are for advanced players.

Gathering and using resources being too much for a beginning player is irrelevant. You don't need to do that to accomplish any particular mission. Even in the real world, with all the exploration we've done in our solar system, we've never used local resources ourselves.

But when you do get to the point where you can manage that, it opens up a vast amount of new possibilities for advanced players without in any way impacting beginning players.

Edited December 14, 2013 by RoboRay

[Karriz]

I remember seeing a resource chart with tons of stuff in it. Well, that indeed did seem unnecessarily complicated, so I'm not surprised that they chose to revise it.

We'll see what they'll come up with now.

[Eric S]

Does anyone know what stream this was in?

Pretty sure that that was the closing ceremony, and I'm not certain that they said 0.24 or just soon on the contracts.

[Kilmeister]

They only said that it wouldn't be implemented in the way the drew up as a .19 idea, which was very complex. He did say they were going to do something that allowed the same basic concept, but It wasn't going to be nearly as complex as stated below. I could see this model below being interesting, but It could easily have been overly tedious, which is the conclusion that they came up with as well.

Clarification: This image is what they said they weren't implementing.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kilmeister
Clarification

[Guest]

Perhaps some of that will come with life support. But now that I look at the chart, it's imperfect in many ways. For example, I think that they should have more than one rocket fuel. That enhances the game much more than when you just have a mining system. On this chart, you can't even tell if "LiquidFuel" is supposed to be RP-1 or H2... Different fuel/oxidizer combos would introduce much more depth and realism than such a resource system. The current proposal was one step up from Kethane, and that isn't much. ISRU just isn't going to get you rocket-grade kerosene nor hydrazine monopropellant, and you can't get H2 everywhere, either.

I'd say, ISRU would be good for a late-game addition. Unless the selection of available fuels increases and life support is introduced, a resource system would essentially be complexity for the sake of complexity. When you think of it, the end result is essentially what we have now. Two good things about the chart are proper nuclear power and an implication of life support system. The current resource system needs a complete, in depth overhaul, extending far beyond the old chart.

[JeffreyCor]

Big thing I liked in the remarks was the contracts and 3 types of interchangeable "currencies." This sounds like it is going to be a great aspect in campaign play and add a lot of flavor.

[Fractal_UK]

I'd like to see a mod with realistic resources (no fake names!) -- something that could be used with Real Solar System to replicate in-situ resource utilization on the Moon and Mars. I think maybe I've been reading the nasaspaceflight.com forums too much lately.

Have you heard of KSP Interstellar?

I've heard of it, but I'm a little turned off by the more sci-fi elements.

A realistic resource system is one of the main goals for Interstellar, especially with this latest news in mind any delay to the stock resource system should only be seen by us modders as an opportunity to make something interesting.

If you don't like the late game parts, you can either delete or simply not use the parts, everything is modular so you don't really lose anything by doing it - you can power all the ISRU parts using nuclear power anyway. Everything in the late game is supposed to be balanced somewhat by the time to achieve the technology and resource availability of advanced fuels but I understand that some people want to stop with modern or just beyond modern technology.

I'm aiming for compatibility and good playability with both MFS+RealFuels and RSS as well as the stock game or any combination of the above.

[GusTurbo]

A realistic resource system is one of the main goals for Interstellar, especially with this latest news in mind any delay to the stock resource system should only be seen by us modders as an opportunity to make something interesting.

If you don't like the late game parts, you can either delete or simply not use the parts, everything is modular so you don't really lose anything by doing it - you can power all the ISRU parts using nuclear power anyway. Everything in the late game is supposed to be balanced somewhat by the time to achieve the technology and resource availability of advanced fuels but I understand that some people want to stop with modern or just beyond modern technology.

I'm aiming for compatibility and good playability with both MFS+RealFuels and RSS as well as the stock game or any combination of the above.

Thanks for this explanation. I think I will give it a shot.

[Andrew Hansen]

In my opinion I think that Squad has made a good decision to postpone resources until later. I believe that resources will be much simpler and more fun once we have:

-a "Modular Fuels" type system with different oxidiser and liquid fuel combinations, as was stated above.

-"stretchy tanks" to house all the different types of fuels and be simple at the same time.

-Better part management so as not to complicate things for new players.

-Easy/medium/hard modes so that you can satisfy the wants of different players.

Although we won't have resource management as soon as we might like, when it comes, I'm sure it will be amazing just as everything else that Squad has made is.

[KASASpace]

I would like a system of resources that *could be used, but for long term missions. Missions that you launch to the Mun to collect fuel to go to Jool or Gas-planet 2, like just big ships and schtuff. Oxium or whatever sounds cool, and maybe even a fuel cell to make water and electricity. Now, resources should be only if you want to use it. You could perhaps buy fuel, load it into a fuel tank, and then take the ship over to Duna. Or, if you want to go Jool, build a ship usig higher Isp engines. Thus LH2 comes around. This can be collected from a hydroscoop and a separator combined on one ship. ETC

[Commander Zoom]

For good or for ill, there is a sizable portion of this game's playerbase that absolutely wets itself over "complicated and grindy". The more so the better.

Does this mean that's the direction the game as a whole should go, and the segment of the players that SQUAD should cater to over others?

[CodatheSpaceFox]

For good or for ill, there is a sizable portion of this game's playerbase that absolutely wets itself over "complicated and grindy". The more so the better.

Does this mean that's the direction the game as a whole should go, and the segment of the players that SQUAD should cater to over others?

Your argument kind of defeats itself there, some if not many of the players in that same playerbase are less excited about such tedious tasks, just as well, many players with limited hardware may fall victim to higher expectations than capable by their computer. I myself following under the latter of said group.

Does that mean we can't have the splendors and trials of resources? Of course not, it just means we need to keep cooking the idea, as Squad is doing, and see how we can satisfy everyone's palates as effectively as possible.

[gmeine921]

I think it would be interesting if they went into a bit more on the statistical level of spacecraft design. Ie you lose a certain amount of power per year for your solar cells and your rtgs (due to the half life of whatever element is inside) and the concept of having batteries degrade over time. Or you have to prove certain technologies like engines on the ground before they have a reliability of 99%. It would also be interesting if they brought in the design of space craft heating. Just an idea for later, to make certain people's gameplay a tad bit more difficult. I'm no comm specialist (space craft structures and thermal design spec are my specialty), but it would also be interesting if they brought into account the concept of errors in data transmission.

Again, this would be interesting and not for them to worry about now.

On another sadistic note, i think it would be also interesting if they added the concept of random disasters. Like how the Mars Observer went "kaput". If they got into "procedural fuel tanks", it would be cool if you could choose how your tanks were designed, like with having gas pressure systems or capillary systems or turbo-pump systems and you could optimize a open or closed cycle engine system and how you could have the tanks designed, with shared bulkheads or... basically different geometric configurations.

just some random ideas off the top of my head.

can't wait till the update though

[allmhuran]

Perhaps the system they drew up didn't work... no issue with that, you have to throw a lot of ideas into the mix and try things out to find the good ones. They won't all be good right from the get go.

But the suggestion that resources in themselves are "too complicated" must have been misinterpreted. Let's take a couple of other games that are probably considered to be "simple": Terraria, and Magicka. Both of them have resource systems, in the sense that you gather up items and combine them together. Hell, even something like Gem Tower Defense is based entirely on this idea of letting players toy with "materials". I doubt anyone would claim that any of these games are considered to be complicated.

Resources are, at the *most* complex, just the same kind of thing. You find various things in the game world, then you combine them to create new things.

But it doesn't even have to be like this, with the combinatorial mechanics. Kethane is almost as simple as it gets and seems pretty popular.

I certainly hope it's not the case that the position of Squad is to "leave it to the mod community". Because while I applaud the efforts of modders, and I similarly applaud Squad for making the game so moddable, it is also their position that a modded installation is strictly an unspported installation.

I would really like to see at least a very basic resource system in vanilla.

[Wahgineer]

I here talk of three currencies. What are they?

[KasperVld]

Science, Cash and Reputation, but not a lot is known about them at this point

[mrxak]

If resource management is too complicated for the average player, how do they manage to handle orbital mechanics?

But, anyway, of course resources are for advanced players.

Gathering and using resources being too much for a beginning player is irrelevant. You don't need to do that to accomplish any particular mission. Even in the real world, with all the exploration we've done in our solar system, we've never used local resources ourselves.

But when you do get to the point where you can manage that, it opens up a vast amount of new possibilities for advanced players without in any way impacting beginning players.

Perhaps the system they drew up didn't work... no issue with that, you have to throw a lot of ideas into the mix and try things out to find the good ones. They won't all be good right from the get go.

But the suggestion that resources in themselves are "too complicated" must have been misinterpreted. Let's take a couple of other games that are probably considered to be "simple": Terraria, and Magicka. Both of them have resource systems, in the sense that you gather up items and combine them together. Hell, even something like Gem Tower Defense is based entirely on this idea of letting players toy with "materials". I doubt anyone would claim that any of these games are considered to be complicated.

Resources are, at the *most* complex, just the same kind of thing. You find various things in the game world, then you combine them to create new things.

But it doesn't even have to be like this, with the combinatorial mechanics. Kethane is almost as simple as it gets and seems pretty popular.

I certainly hope it's not the case that the position of Squad is to "leave it to the mod community". Because while I applaud the efforts of modders, and I similarly applaud Squad for making the game so moddable, it is also their position that a modded installation is strictly an unspported installation.

I would really like to see at least a very basic resource system in vanilla.

I'm definitely hoping that we will see a resource mining system in place in the final game. Obviously it's not needed to do everything in the game, so newbies can ignore it. Heck, we saw in one of the streams that somebody had managed a Grand Tour with a four part stock rocket. The docking system already gives us the ability to refuel, so there are endless possibilities for a "beginner" who doesn't want to touch resource mining.

But resource mining doesn't have to be as complicated as the chart they initially showed off. I myself had some concerns about the amount of weight I'd need to launch just to get all the necessary equipment in place for even the simplest of mining operations. Perhaps, eventually, we'll see something much more simple. One module that mines liquid fuel components, and another that refines them into liquid fuel. Then another module that collects oxygen from an atmosphere and fills up the other part of the tank with oxidizer. You can take away a lot of the boxes and arrows from the chart, and still have a fully functional resource system. If that saves me from having to launch dozens of refuelers, that's really all I need. It doesn't need to be complicated to provide worthwhile functionality. Include Kethane-style scanners that can say this region of the Mun has all the materials needed for this type of resource, and land a refinery. Newbies don't have to worry about the chemical ratios of Oxium and Propelium, just that everything they need for a particular fuel type is present at a given location. Let the refinery module worry about collecting the right materials in the right proportions. Discard the rest as waste, spewing out into the ground, the atmosphere, or space.

But again, none of this is necessary for beginners to play the game, until they decide to try something more advanced, just like beginners don't ever need to use nuclear or ion propulsion. But it will provide a great deal more depth to the game for more advanced players, and after all, beginner players eventually become more advanced, and it'd be nice if they had more to do.

[Andrew Hansen]

I really think that what's important for a resource system is having hard and easy modes. Obviously you can't satisfy everyone. Some people only want a resource system as simple as Kethane. Others want uber-realistic fuel types and separate mining units. Squad can't satisfy both these wants in one version of the game. However, if Hard, Medium, and Easy modes of the game are implemented, everyone can be happy.

Is it extra work for Squad to make different materials for a resource system? I don't really think so. In essense it will be the same. Perhaps some extra parts will be needed for Hard mode for all the different types of extraction units. Mainly, though, all they'll need to change is the number of materials and their names.

I believe Kerbal Space Program should be a game of lots of customization, just like it is now.

P.S. - By the way, I'm really excited to hear about Multiplayer coming soon to KSP!