Possible to reach Duna/Eve without Mainsail engine?

[Guitarman355]

Ive been progressing through career mode and the mainsail and big rockomax tank are available for unlock. I have roughly over half of the science required to get it (something) so I need roughly 200 more science. Ive been to Mun and Minmus twice, with plenty of temp readings, science lab experiments, goo observations, crew reports, eva reports and surface samples.

I probably messed up and chose to unlock advanced metal works thinking I needed it to unlock the mainsail, but I was wrong.

Ive explored all of Kerbins biomes except maybe mountains, and Ive been to the Muns highlands, and midlands, and on Minmus I got samples of the hard rock and frozen lakes.

Being that I have access to clamp-o-trons Ive thought about launching a lander and transit stage and rendezvousing in HKO, but its proving difficult. I can build a manned rocket to orbit kerbol, but Ive nerfed my science gain from my probe I sent to duna while it was around Kerbol. So a manned mission really wouldnt bring home that much science, would it.

Im open to suggestions, pic of my tech tree so far

[Sirine]

http://www.kerbalmaps.com/

Mun.

http://i.imgur.com/wFOhEIS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eBQ5C9P.png

Try land on this place (Mun), EVA out your crew, and take all the ground sample (7 of them), and bring back to command pod, deliver back to Kerbin.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Sirine

[Taki117]

Anything is possible with enough fuel and engines. There's nothing stopping you from building a rocket to get there.

Use http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ to plan when to leave kerbin SOI (You can launch anytime and stay in LKO)

Use http://i.imgur.com/UUU8yCk.png to figure out how much dV you need to get there.

Use http://alterbaron.github.io/ksp_aerocalc/ to save some dV by aerocapture/braking

Honestly, the sky is the limit. (I just pulled those out of my bookmarks)

[Murph]

Yeah, you should be able to build something which could reach either Duna or Eve. Long distance isn't about max thrust, it's about high fuel efficiency (not necessarily max efficiency). The Mainsail is all about max thrust off the pad on Kerbin, as part of a heavy-lift rocket, into LKO (low Kerbin orbit). It's pretty much the wrong choice beyond LKO, although there may be situations where people find a use for it.

[Taki117]

http://www.kerbalmaps.com/

Mun.

PIC

Try land on this place, EVA out your crew, and take all the sample 7 of them, and bring back to command pod, deliver back to Kerbin.

This feels like cheating to me. I know that it was programmed that way, but it just doesn't seem right to me to be able to do that I could see having 3 there max (Crater, Canyon, midland or highland (But not both)) It is however noted that each crater of the mun is it's own biome, and EVA reports are biome specific and you can store 1 per biome in any command pod, so it might be worth while to instead build an EVA biome explorer type craft with enough dV to make large inclination changes to get all of the biomes. (Also, sorry for the double post)

[agentKmurph]

The Mailsail is.... unecessasry. In most cases. Its just its big and bad and yeah I get it but really, its more of a red herring.

You can get to both Eve and Duna using only the Skipper which I can see you have unlocked. And the nuclear! Wow, you're actually set!

You also have the right idea of launching two part missions. Most of my missions in career mode in involve orbital assembly. Its best to do it in LKO actually. I wrote a full tutorial that you can view here

Here are a few sample craft of my own (bland but functional) design.

This was my first probe to orbit Duna. As you can see, no Mainsails - only Skippers.

This is a manned derivative.

This is an interplanetary booster I used for putting a 10 ton lander into orbit around Duna and then for returning the lander's barebones core and science experiments after a rendezvous in Duna orbit. The fuel efficiency of the LV-N is your best friend in this game. Literally.

Also, watch Scott Manley's videos on how to aerocapture. Aerocapture saves thousands of dV which can then be used for return and in-system orbital corrections.

Here are my main rules on interplanetary travel:

-the smaller your craft, the better

-learn the rocket equation; dV = ln( initial mass / final mass) * Isp * g, with g being 9.8 and Isp the specific impulse of the engine

-any interplanetary transfer stage should be using the LV-N once unlocked

-two part craft are usually better (this eliminates the Mainsail from the picture in most cases and keeps me from building Whackjob-ian rockets)

-Three words; aerocapture, aerocapture, aerocapture

EDIT: ALWAYS ASPARAGUS YOUR BOOSTERS. until drag gets patched, its the easiest way to put huge payloads into orbit with a small launcher.

[Sirine]

This feels like cheating to me.

Not a cheating, if you could achieve...er...have the skill.

Hope you sometimes will try my posted challenge.

1) Master of EVA. (Gilly version).

2) Master of EVA. (Minmus version).

3) Master of EVA. (Mun edition).

4) Master of Pinpoint Lander. (Kerbin Edition)

5) Master of Pinpoint Lander. (Mun Edition)

6) 33.1km Emergency Rescue on Jeb's Burger!

7) Christmas-is-near-Jeb-decided-to-practice-his-dancing-skill

---

[Col_Jessep]

The Mailsail is.... unnecessary. In most cases. Its just its big and bad and yeah I get it but really, its more of a red herring.

Agree 100%. The Mainsail is overrated.

I wrote a little post for somebody else a while back to show how you can easily get the power of a Mainsail and more with the smaller engines:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/60251-Tutorials-or-help-with-my-heavy-lifters-Stuck-%28?p=816791#post816791

[Guitarman355]

I appreciate all of the quick responses!

http://www.kerbalmaps.com/

Mun.

http://i.imgur.com/wFOhEIS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/eBQ5C9P.png

Try land on this place (Mun), EVA out your crew, and take all the ground sample (7 of them), and bring back to command pod, deliver back to Kerbin.

Oh wow, I had no idea Mun had that many biomes.

Anything is possible with enough fuel and engines. There's nothing stopping you from building a rocket to get there.

Use http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ to plan when to leave kerbin SOI (You can launch anytime and stay in LKO)

Use http://i.imgur.com/UUU8yCk.png to figure out how much dV you need to get there.

Use http://alterbaron.github.io/ksp_aerocalc/ to save some dV by aerocapture/braking

Honestly, the sky is the limit. (I just pulled those out of my bookmarks)

Those seem exceedingly useful, thanks for the links!

Yeah, you should be able to build something which could reach either Duna or Eve. Long distance isn't about max thrust, it's about high fuel efficiency (not necessarily max efficiency). The Mainsail is all about max thrust off the pad on Kerbin, as part of a heavy-lift rocket, into LKO (low Kerbin orbit). It's pretty much the wrong choice beyond LKO, although there may be situations where people find a use for it.

Thats the whole reason Id like to have it, is to blast through Kerbins atmosphere.

The Mailsail is.... unecessasry. In most cases. Its just its big and bad and yeah I get it but really, its more of a red herring.

You can get to both Eve and Duna using only the Skipper which I can see you have unlocked. And the nuclear! Wow, you're actually set!

You also have the right idea of launching two part missions. Most of my missions in career mode in involve orbital assembly. Its best to do it in LKO actually. I wrote a full tutorial that you can view here

Also, watch Scott Manley's videos on how to aerocapture. Aerocapture saves thousands of dV which can then be used for return and in-system orbital corrections.

Here are my main rules on interplanetary travel:

-the smaller your craft, the better

-learn the rocket equation; dV = ln( initial mass / final mass) * Isp * g, with g being 9.8 and Isp the specific impulse of the engine

-any interplanetary transfer stage should be using the LV-N once unlocked

-two part craft are usually better (this eliminates the Mainsail from the picture in most cases and keeps me from building Whackjob-ian rockets)

-Three words; aerocapture, aerocapture, aerocapture

EDIT: ALWAYS ASPARAGUS YOUR BOOSTERS. until drag gets patched, its the easiest way to put huge payloads into orbit with a small launcher.

Oh yes, Ive learned the invaluable efficiency of the LVN in a vacuum. Thats how Im designing all of my transit stages, I would be foolish to use anything else.

And the smaller the better is something Im slowly finding out, Ive been thinking too big. I may honestly try designs based off of real rockets (i.e. a large launch stage, a small efficient stage and a even smaller landing stage.

This is the design of the rocket that made it to the Mun, I havent made changes ever since Ive unlocked more stuff.

Oh, and as you can see in this picture, I asparagus EVERYTHING

[Alexandicity]

I agree, you can do a Eve or Duna mission, even manned, without Mainsails or Skippers. The craft you used for your mission to the Mun (which seemed to be a return?) might well have enough Delta-V without further change...

You could follow a historical a path to get that (small) amount of science you need to get these engines though: just try a flyby. Get on a path for either planet and, as you zoom by, do orbital science. You'll have plenty of time to get and transmit science from the SOI when you enter it, and if you are close enough (200km or something) from either planet you can do it again to get the "near space" science also. Or just plummet into the atmosphere (with a few 'chutes!!) and get the atmospheric science (as you burn/float down) and land science) without any further delta-V cost...

[SRV Ron]

This made a one way trip to Eve, Duna, and Laythe. It uses one orange tank, a Skipper, an LV-N, al FL-T800 tank, one kerbal pod, parachute, with decouplers and solar panels optional. (How far can a Kerbal go with a ten part or less rocket challenge.)

To Laythe

Eve

And Duna

[SRV Ron]

You can reach Duna and Eve without mainsail, skippers or LV-N in Career.

In orbit

Probe later modified with addition of Goo containers.

[numerobis]

You can reach Eve and Duna with Tier 0 parts! Return from Eve would be hard, but you've got the parts you'd need, namely the T30 and a decoupler.

With about 9 LV-T30 engines you get a first stage with as much payload capacity to the upper atmosphere as you'd get with the mainsail. The engines are heavier, but they're more efficient.

If you have the 48-7S and the cube strut, you can pour on the nozzles quite thick. 50 engines get you as much thrust as a mainsail, for less mass, and better Isp.

[celem]

If you have the 48-7S and the cube strut, you can pour on the nozzles quite thick. 50 engines get you as much thrust as a mainsail, for less mass, and better Isp.

Agreed. Theres no engine in the game 'required' to do anything. Many folks chase nukes and use them as a go-to. Clustering 48-7S is another 'overpowered' combo.

The mainsail is only going to be relevant leaving the surface as pointed out. If you are not moving huge loads then smart design will accomplish what you need with other engines.

I would suggest trying the docking thing again sometime. It's such a game changer. Especially if you are not using mainsails, as it lets you assemble in orbit craft that are tricky to lift in a single piece without the 'sails. (for all that we say its not needed...it really is the king of 'high tonnes to lko', avoiding it is an exercise in weight management and can lead to escalating part-counts)

[el_coyoto]

I did most of my unmanned exploration of Kerbol system without unlocking the Mainsail... ^^"

The only advantage of the Mainsail is its huge thrust ... which can be emulated with engine clusters if you don't mind using this trick.

In the end, I consider Mainsails if they allow me to effectively reduce the part count without having a thirsty or too big rocket. This leads me to use them for very specific cases, like lifting huge pieces of space station to LKO without murdering my frame rate.

[Skorpychan]

Easily, if you can do on-orbit construction. I only use the Mainsail to chuck things up because it's easier on the design constraints than careful Skipper design.

[Moar Boosters]

My N-1 rocket uses skipper engines and can put Kerbals on the moons on Jool.

[Vandheer_Lord]

This feels like cheating to me. I know that it was programmed that way, but it just doesn't seem right to me to be able to do that I could see having 3 there max (Crater, Canyon, midland or highland (But not both)) It is however noted that each crater of the mun is it's own biome, and EVA reports are biome specific and you can store 1 per biome in any command pod, so it might be worth while to instead build an EVA biome explorer type craft with enough dV to make large inclination changes to get all of the biomes. (Also, sorry for the double post)

It looks like from your tech tree you have the nuclear engine. in a later, smaller stage, you can use it and it will be EXTREMELY fuel efficient.

[Dave Kerbin]

You can easily reach Duna/Eve without Mainsails, Skippers or Nuclear engines.

For example I did a one way trip to Eve to place two landers (one for the ocean and one for the land) on the surface and a third probe on Gilly using very little tech and a launcher with a payload capability of only about 10t.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/53159-Science-leads-to-wonderful-things-%28Last-update-Eve-landings%29?p=720063&viewfull=1#post720063

Your post also got me thinking of what a budget trip to Duna and back would look like, I'll probably post that in my thread too.

[Ravenchant]

Perfectly possible. You don't really need the mainsail for anything, if you design it well. One of my career launchers gets 45 tons to orbit without mainsails or orange tanks, and it's possible to go bigger if you go mad on the struts.

My N-1 rocket uses skipper engines and can put Kerbals on the moons on Jool.

Your name matches this picture beautifully

Edited December 22, 2013 by Ravenchant

[CaptainArchmage]

You can definitely do an Eve or Duna mission without mainsails, and can even do it without the 2m or 2.5m tanks.

[sgt_flyer]

You should be able to use clusters of lvt-30's and a few lvt45's on your boosters to lift even heavy payloads (temstar's rockets are a good example of this) - ok a cluster of those engines is going to weight a bit more than a mainsail, but they have a largely better isp - so in the end, the rocket will need less fuel and be lighter in the end - thus not needing going up to match a mainsail's thrust

[thereaverofdarkness]

Just use solid boosters to lift a single X-3200 tank into orbit with one or two nuclear engines on it and very little capsule mass. That thing will have some 7000+ delta-v by itself. You can then play with tiny probe designs and you can make a probe with 3-4k delta-v that you can set on top of the nuclear stage without losing too much delta-v from it. With a bit of tweaking, it's pretty easy to launch a 10,000+ delta-v ship into orbit (not counting the delta-V it costs to get to orbit). Just attach lifter engines like the LV-T30, Rockomax Skipper, the little orange rockomaxes, or solid fuel rockets to push it into space.

[maccollo]

If you can land on Mun you can land on Duna.