electromagnetic radiation and life forms around it.

[MC.STEEL]

So i know a LOT of people that just freak out about e.m. fields coming from mobile phone computers ect...

saying they are dangerous and crap like that

i mean where siting on a giant magnet that protects us from nasty cosmic rays and they say electromagnetic waves are dangerous.

And i just cant shake the worry out of my head,are they really that dangerous?

[DonLorenzo]

Without going into specifics consider the following

Phones, microwaves and such are used ubiquitously by huge numbers of people. Any deleterious effect of any magnitude at all would therefore be exceedingly easy to the point to be obvious to find and identify.

Sometimes you hear people say the effects are long-lived and small, so they shouldn't necesarrily be quick and easy to identify. That's somewhat right, but still, statistical effects (which cancer, which is the one that's often mentioned and feared, is), even small ones, will be visible soon with a sufficiently large sample size. And the sample size is large. It's all of us.

They will retort and repeat ad nauseum; perhaps the effect is SO SMALL that it will still not be apparent! In that case we're well into the likelihood territory of direct-on-your-head asteroid strikes, and indeed there is always room for such levels of danger, in everything, because it's unmeasurable (try measuring the likelihood of direct-on-your-head asteroid strikes). Those levels of risk I choose not to worry about.

Except asteroid strikes, because those are preventable

[Ralathon]

First of all, you need to understand that the electromagnetic spectrum is huge:

Basically, the higher up you go on that chart the more harmful it gets. It also depends on the intensity of the source (How bright the flashlight is) and how long you're exposed (1 minute in the sun won't do much, 10 hours will give you sunburn).

Wifi, cellphones etc are all very low on that chart and emit very very little radiation (Engineers try to minimize the intensity needed so they can maximize battery lifetime). So they're absolutely harmless.

Also, the magnetic field of the earth does absolutely bugger all to protect us from electromagnetic radiation. A magnetic field like the earths can only influence charged particles, photons (light particles) are uncharged so the earths magnetic field lets them pass. The only thing between us and gamma rays from space is our atmosphere.

[MC.STEEL]

First of all, you need to understand that the electromagnetic spectrum is huge:

*snip*

Also, the magnetic field of the earth does absolutely bugger all to protect us from electromagnetic radiation. A magnetic field like the earths can only influence charged particles, photons (light particles) are uncharged so the earths magnetic field lets them pass. The only thing between us and gamma rays from space is our atmosphere.

ahem sorry about the inacuracies there i usualy know this stuph but the moment i put them to use my brain just decides to forget them

[nhnifong]

Don't blame "your brain" as if it's not you.

[nhnifong]

EM radiation with a wavelength small enough to ionize atoms is dangerous to life. This is because it will break apart DNA molecules and they may re-assemble with errors. This mutated DNA can be cancerous. Ionizing radiation includes ultraviolet, x-ray, and gamma-rays. The damage done depends on the intensity and the duration. The damage is measured in Sieverts. In the words of Mandall Munroe: "A cell phone's transmitter does not produce ionizing radiation and does not cause cancer... unless it's a banana phone"

[WestAir]

How do you argue with someone who strongly, aggressively believes any type of radiation (radio waves included) is an an immediate health risk, and to assume otherwise is both insulting and ignorant?

[Kryten]

Point out people working on radio telescopes and/or ABM radars don't just instantly drop dead? Or you could just go with the 'light is a form of radiation' routine.

[DonLorenzo]

I tried to put an argument forward in my reply addressing that

[vetrox]

People are worried because people dont know.

nhnifongs picture pretty much sums it up for me. I havent looked at the sources but will assume they are legit (this is the internet after all so i shouldnt assume)

Its my new desktop background for the week

EDIT: Personally I feel regular x rays are pretty ****ing dangerous. Saw an experiment on human cells (cant remember what type of cells now) with 1 sample put under x ray and the other something else (might have been left alone) and the damage the x ray caused was very interesting. I cant rmember if it was damage or it just harmed how they regenerated. Nothing life threatening ,well it could potentially be but the chance is so silly small. Something about rebuilding wrong. It was some years ago now that i watched it.

We never think twice about getting an x ray. But even that small but very quick dose does some harm

Edited December 23, 2013 by vetrox

[Ralathon]

People are worried because people dont know.

nhnifongs picture pretty much sums it up for me. I havent looked at the sources but will assume they are legit (this is the internet after all so i shouldnt assume)

Its my new desktop background for the week

That radiation chart is made by Randall Munroe, he also does the XKCD comic and XKCD what if. He's usually pretty legit.

[nhnifong]

So, my friend is one of those people who is scared of "radiation" and "chemicals" and to be perfectly honest, I don't think reasoning with her is even worth trying. Usually she's just upset or uncomfortable about something else, and if I tried to make some argument about what exactly radiation is, she'd get more mad because I'd be missing the point entirely. She just wants me to do what she wants some of the time, rather than always leading, and if what she wants is totally irrational (and she knows I think it is) then it's just stronger proof that I'm willing to do things her way just out of kindness rather than for utility.

[Camacha]

Sometimes you hear people say the effects are long-lived and small, so they shouldn't necesarrily be quick and easy to identify. That's somewhat right, but still, statistical effects (which cancer, which is the one that's often mentioned and feared, is), even small ones, will be visible soon with a sufficiently large sample size. And the sample size is large. It's all of us.

True. But one should also consider that sometimes incubation or manifestation takes a long, long time. That is for example why it took so long to realize that asbestos is so dangerous. It simply takes 30-40 years for problems to manifest themselves.

I am not saying electromagnatic waves are dangerous, just objecting to the obvious danger is obvious thinking Also, I think it would be prudent to avoid throwing undirected energy around when possible. Even if the chances of problems are slim, not throwing the energy around has better odds. It is just a sensible precaution that is applicable to almost anything in life.

[DaveofDefeat]

I wouldn't stick my head right next to a 50,000 watt radio antenna.

[jwenting]

People are worried because people dont know.

and have been fed lies and FUD for decades by the "green" movement about "the dangers of radiation" as part of their campaign to get rid of nuclear power, the only clean and reliable source of electricity for most of the planet.

People have been so indoctrinated into the baseless and mindless belief that all radiation is bad, without knowing what radiation even is (let alone that light is radiation), they're ready to believe any charlatan who screams that something emits radiation that's going to kill them unless they buy whatever it is the charlatan is selling.

[tetryds]

As said before, the only dangerous radiation is ionizing radiation.

Those are either too high frequencies, which have low penetration, or specific molecular bond frequencies.

Neither of those are common.

And if, for example, a DNA molecular bond frequency is at 6.050GHz, an electromagnetic wave at that frequency is harmful, but a 6.060GHz one is not.

(it's not a real vaule, just example, I belive that the DNA bond frequencies are far higher than that)

[WestAir]

On the planes I use we have a radar that has ionization health risk warnings. They say the radio waves are strong enough to ionize. How is that possible?

[lajoswinkler]

Nonionizing radiation can also be dangerous. Even light can be dangerous. You'd die under sufficiently bright light. You'd be cooked under microwaves and infrared radiation.

High intensity radiowaves can cause tissue heating and can interfere with ions on cell membranes (think about nerves and muscles), but that really requires high intensities. Trust me, if you strap yourself to a 500 kW transmitter, you're not going to have a nice day.

That's why we have signs like this one.

Cell phones, under normal usage, aren't linked to any such threat. Old cell phones, if you used them far away from network antennas, were trying so hard to gain a signal so that they'd often go over SAR values. Use them long enough and they would increase tissue temperature in your head in an unnatural way, so the blood doesn't travel properly and headache can occur. Do that in a chronic fashion and more serious problems might arise. The effect is quite faint, but exists.

Cell phones these days can't go over SAR values and there are antennas all around so they don't have to emit so much waves. However, just to be really sure, it is not recommended to keep them powered on next to your head every night (possible cumulative damage), or give them to small kids 24/7.

Edited December 25, 2013 by lajoswinkler

[Psycix]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

It is physically impossible to get cancer from any kind of electromagnetic wave with a longer wavelength (=lower energy) than UV.

Only the highly energetic photons such as UV, Xray and gamma radiation carry enough energy to ionize atoms, breaking up molecules and therefor altering DNA and causing cancer.

No, you can not sit in the microwave or stand next to a radar sending out a few dozen kilowatts. The extremely high dose will cause burns.

Low doses, such as a Wifi router or cellphone can not sufficiently heat you up to do damage. Any cellphone radiation hitting your brain matter is simply absorbed as heat without changing chemical structure.

The main reason people are radiophobic is because they do not understand what radiation is.

People are afraid of the unknown, so when scientists say "gamma radio waves kill you" they assume the same applies to any other radio wave.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Psycix

[lajoswinkler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-ionizing_radiation

It is physically impossible to get cancer from any kind of electromagnetic wave with a longer wavelength (=lower energy) than UV.

Only the highly energetic photons such as UV, Xray and gamma radiation carry enough energy to ionize atoms, breaking up molecules and therefor altering DNA and causing cancer.

No, you can not sit in the microwave or stand next to a radar sending out a few dozen kilowatts. The extremely high dose will cause burns.

Low doses, such as a Wifi router or cellphone can not sufficiently heat you up to do damage. Any cellphone radiation hitting your brain matter is simply absorbed as heat without changing chemical structure.

The main reason people are radiophobic is because they do not understand what radiation is.

People are afraid of the unknown, so when scientists say "gamma radio waves kill you" they assume the same applies to any other radio wave.

Not true. It is physically impossible to get cancer via direct ionization of water and radical production if you use nonionizing radiation.

There are many causes of various cancers and tumors. I'd say it's highly unlikely to get ill because of cell phones, but to say it's physically impossible to get cancer, no. In order to say that, you'd have to know everything about cancer, and that is not something you can express with an equation.

[Psycix]

That is correct. My statement only applies to genetic mutation through ionization. Which, however, accounts for an overwhelming majority of the radiation induced cancer hazard by orders of magnitude.

[lajoswinkler]

I won't say "most", but a great deal of cancers and tumors start because of inherent errors in the genetic code of an organism. Organisms are extremely efficient at repairing ionizing radiation induced damage, so that the immune system doesn't have to deal with rogue cells, but when the cell's nucleus starts with a different policy, it's tougher to mend it. Immune system takes care of it and it's very efficient in it. Each of us has a handful of cancerous cells in our bodies at all moments. If the immune system fails (AIDS or some poison, whatever), they don't get eaten.

[tetryds]

Anyway, to make things more clear:

You will not die from any forms of radiation emitted by the commercial gadgets.

And that there is more radiation around you right now than you can imagine, but low intensity.

Just don't get close to a nuclear reactor or bananas and you will be fine.

[nhnifong]

I won't say "most", but a great deal of cancers and tumors start because of inherent errors in the genetic code of an organism. Organisms are extremely efficient at repairing ionizing radiation induced damage, so that the immune system doesn't have to deal with rogue cells, but when the cell's nucleus starts with a different policy, it's tougher to mend it. Immune system takes care of it and it's very efficient in it. Each of us has a handful of cancerous cells in our bodies at all moments. If the immune system fails (AIDS or some poison, whatever), they don't get eaten.

If we are both smart, lucky, and brave, perhaps we could fix the genetic errors and permanently absolve our descendents of this particular way of dying.