EXTREME ION'ing - because it's not covalent, or very punny.

[metaphor]

Why did you hyperedit it into the ground if you could land it? landing with 1.02 T/W means incredibly long burns to kill velocity, and you only have 1300 DV in that thing, so that would be an incredible feat of flying, and you would need to lift nearly an extra 50% to carry the capsule, and you would still have only enough to take off and land on one moon, which means the part count would be absurd as you would need a mother ship to get there.

That was still the most impressive thing ive seen in a while, when i was thinking about it i was assuming 1 fuel tank for every ion engine.

I just did it to see if it was possible. Landing should be exactly the same as taking-off but in reverse, same amount of delta-v. It would also be relatively easy to add xenon tanks for more delta-v since they weigh very little compared to the engines. I also put on too many solar panels, could have done it with about 1/4 fewer. I did land it on the highest point on Ike at 12 km altitude though, since the pull of gravity is slightly lower there, and the TWR is more like 1.2. But I think it's possible from lower altitudes too.

Dres has only slightly higher gravity than Ike but solar panels aren't as effective, so I don't know, it might also be possible to lift off from there too.

To get a crewed version you just scale up the same ship with the same ratio of ion engines to solar panels, and when it gets big enough, the extra command pod is not going to matter so much in terms of mass.

[Monty_Droppings]

I just did it to see if it was possible. Landing should be exactly the same as taking-off but in reverse, same amount of delta-v. It would also be relatively easy to add xenon tanks for more delta-v since they weigh very little compared to the engines. I also put on too many solar panels, could have done it with about 1/4 fewer. I did land it on the highest point on Ike at 12 km altitude though, since the pull of gravity is slightly lower there, and the TWR is more like 1.2. But I think it's possible from lower altitudes too.

Dres has only slightly higher gravity than Ike but solar panels aren't as effective, so I don't know, it might also be possible to lift off from there too.

To get a crewed version you just scale up the same ship with the same ratio of ion engines to solar panels, and when it gets big enough, the extra command pod is not going to matter so much in terms of mass.

It is much harder than it sounds on paper, i tried landing with 1.05 TW before on my previous design, it is for all intents incredibly impractical, you almost need to burn as soon as you get into the SOI. More tanks=more weigh=more engines=more tanks.... Go ahead and try, I personally cant run anything with 300+ part count.

[MaverickSawyer]

Permission to use the nuclear reactors, xenon fuel tanks, and solar panels (but not the engines) from the Near Future Propulsion Pack?

[Monty_Droppings]

Permission to use the nuclear reactors, xenon fuel tanks, and solar panels (but not the engines) from the Near Future Propulsion Pack?

I can put up a modded leaderboard if you want. But honestly if you only use the panels and the xenon tanks from that pack i have no problem with it, as i just took a look and they scale with the in game weight/fuel. Using the reactor would be basically cheating, but as i said, i can throw up a modded leaderboard.

[Jasonden]

It is much harder than it sounds on paper, i tried landing with 1.05 TW before on my previous design, it is for all intents incredibly impractical, you almost need to burn as soon as you get into the SOI.

It's do-able. I would first burn into a slightly eccentric orbit, peri 10, apo 20 or 30 maybe. Then start your deorbit burn 90 degrees after peri -- that way you're still moving upward -- but only burn laterally to get rid of horizontal surface velocity. Then once your vert velocity gets to zero start pitching to keep it as low as possible while zeroing out the horizontal.

Problem is that this takes TONS of fuel. So might need to have Xenon drop-tanks or something.

I am impressed by metaphor's existence proof, though -- it is not theoretically impossible to take off and land from the Mun with ion engines. It is practically impossible, perhaps, pending a demonstration

[Monty_Droppings]

It's do-able. I would first burn into a slightly eccentric orbit, peri 10, apo 20 or 30 maybe. Then start your deorbit burn 90 degrees after peri -- that way you're still moving upward -- but only burn laterally to get rid of horizontal surface velocity. Then once your vert velocity gets to zero start pitching to keep it as low as possible while zeroing out the horizontal.

Problem is that this takes TONS of fuel. So might need to have Xenon drop-tanks or something.

I am impressed by metaphor's existence proof, though -- it is not theoretically impossible to take off and land from the Mun with ion engines. It is practically impossible, perhaps, pending a demonstration

I just did the math, Kn-Tons of thrust .5kn = ~ .05 tons of thrust, each ion engine generate .05 tons of thrust. Each Ion engine weighs .0415 tons on the mun. Each ION Requires 8 1x6 solar panels which weighs .023 tons on the mun, so you cannot use 1x6 panels, as it wouldnt allow net gain. If you used SX STAT panels, you would need 20 of them, .0166 tons.

So therefore it is mathematically impossible to land on Mun with Ions. As .05 tons of thrust cannot lift the .581 tons of solar panels+ ION engine weight, and that is not even including the need for fuel.

On Ike, it becomes bearly possible, as the stuff needed would only weigh .38 tons, and your net gain would be roughly .2 tons of thrust per ION engine/ solar panel combo, and a mk 1 capsule would weigh .08 tons on ike. , and each fuel tank weighs .02 tons on Ike.

So if you brought absolutely NOTHING else, and somehow you fit 20 solar panels on the capsule, and mounted no landing gear, or parachute for return to kerbin, and not even a structural thing to mount stuff to, you could lift a MK 1 capsule with panels and fuel, as it would weigh .48 tons and the thing would produce .5 tons of thrust. Good luck with that though.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Monty_Droppings

[Jasonden]

How .05 tons of thrust can lift the .581 tons of stuff required for one Ion?... Im confused, or bad at math, but probably both.

Looks like metaphor didn't use panels -- he used batteries. Does that enable TWR>1.0?

[metaphor]

Looks like metaphor didn't use panels -- he used batteries. Does that enable TWR>1.0?

Batteries don't last long enough to get all the way to orbit. On the Mun the max amount of batteries ion engines can lift last about 1 minute.

The better alternative is solar panels (the small ones are the most mass-efficient). On the Mun there's a mountain near the south pole at an altitude of 7060 m. At that altitude, the acceleration due to the Mun's gravity is 1.52 m/s^2. That's only enough for an ion engine to carry about 3/4 the amount of solar panels it needs. But there's a possibility here... If you include some batteries, and use ion engines at full power at first, you could maybe get a high enough speed/altitude that by the time the batteries run out and you have to throttle down you don't need as much thrust. Also wait until the Mun is on the side of Kerbin closer to the Sun for a bit extra power. It's right at the line of being theoretically possible, but from what I've tested it looks like it's on the impossible side of the line.

By the way, the cubic octagonal struts and the octagonal struts don't weigh anything so you can use as many as you want as structure (but they contribute to high part count).

Edited December 31, 2013 by metaphor

[sal_vager]

Great challenge Monty_Droppings, and congratulations for being stickied for January

[Monty_Droppings]

Great challenge Monty_Droppings, and congratulations for being stickied for January

YAY! My first real post has been stickied!

*Kerbal Fistpump*

[microbe999]

This seems to be a challenge of attrition, as it can take hours to culminate enough delta-v to make it to other planets.

[KvickFlygarn87]

Sir, your entry broke the rules! You said no part mods may be used, and what do I see? A kethane part!

[Kasuha]

The only thing I am finding unclear on this challenge is the rule that I am allowed to take "3000 delta-v" of fuel. Okay, I understand it means 3000 m/s. But 3000 m/s of what? Can I make a 200-ton interplanetary ship and take 3000 m/s delta-v worth of liquid fuel with it? Then I definitely have more than enough fuel to land on all targets and maybe some other with a small lander I can undock from the ship whenever I reach any of my destinations.

[jumpyed]

The only thing I am finding unclear on this challenge is the rule that I am allowed to take "3000 delta-v" of fuel. Okay, I understand it means 3000 m/s. But 3000 m/s of what? Can I make a 200-ton interplanetary ship and take 3000 m/s delta-v worth of liquid fuel with it? Then I definitely have more than enough fuel to land on all targets and maybe some other with a small lander I can undock from the ship whenever I reach any of my destinations.

I'm taking it as 3000m/s based on what is landing on the surface.

[jumpyed]

Also want to confirm, we can launch the craft in multiply pieces and dock them in orbit.

[Monty_Droppings]

Sir, your entry broke the rules! You said no part mods may be used, and what do I see? A kethane part!

Rules state neutral parts, that add no bonus, may be used, I made specific references to kethane and the mapping mod, as I feel if you spend 10+ hours on a mission not allowing people to add parts that only detract from flight proformance is a fallacy.

[Monty_Droppings]

Also want to confirm, we can launch the craft in multiply pieces and dock them in orbit.

Yes, the only catch is that all parts must be docked together before you leave kerbin orbit.

[donfede]

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Minmus, Vall*, Pol, Bop, Gilly

4350 x 1.5 = 6525

Mods used: TriggerTech's Kerbal Alarm Clock

Craft are stock; designed v0.22, mission on v0.23

K08ia craft

K08iaT-KMk2 craft

4 and a half KSP years.

16 Earth days.

The craft was based on my ion lander, which works well, but had only been used for single landings at a time (often propelled there by liquid fuel). Fuel management and craft reconfigurations were a big part of the mission (and could have benefited from more planning). Apparently too much fuel was brought along, though that may have been due to the aggressive aerobraking.

Design on an improved vessel, with greater TWR, has begun; but, Jeb may leave that trip to Bob or Bill.

best,

kdonfede

--

"Adding K to every word..."

Edited January 11, 2014 by donfede
updated with mods used

[Monty_Droppings]

http://imgur.com/a/qGEO1

Minmus, Vall*, Pol, Bop, Gilly

4350 x 1.5 = 6525

K08ia craft

K08iaT-KMk2 craft

4 and a half KSP years.

16 Earth days.

The craft was based on my ion lander, which works well, but had only been used for single landings at a time (often propelled there by liquid fuel). Fuel management and craft reconfigurations were a big part of the mission (and could have benefited from more planning). Apparently too much fuel was brought along, though that may have been due to the aggressive aerobraking.

Design on an improved vessel, with greater TWR, has begun; but, Jeb may leave that trip to Bob or Bill.

best,

kdonfede

--

"Adding K to every word..."

You just blew my mind. That is the coolest thing I have ever seen in KSP (I LOVE Ions), and this is far beyond the scope of anything I would have ever come up with.

Thank you for the time you spent, I can only imagine the amount of time it took for you to design this.

Bravo to you good sir.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Monty_Droppings

[jumpyed]

Dang it, that was the trip I was planning, now to think how to beat this....

[Monty_Droppings]

Dang it, that was the trip I was planning, now to think how to beat this....

You know... a Eeloo or Moho landing would be a first for this challenge, and given Moho's orbit velocity it wouldnt be hard use the assist to sling yourself to Jool. But slowing down to match orbital velocities with Moho is very, very hard. And the lack of solar panel efficiency at Eeloo would make life very difficult.

That being said, matching the trip would still be rather impressive in my eyes.

[Jasonden]

Minmus, Vall*, Pol, Bop, Gilly

4350 x 1.5 = 6525

Impressive. Most impressive.

[jumpyed]

Got all the pieces into orbit, now to actually dock all the things together, first time docking in space! \o/

[nwade]

The craft was based on my ion lander, which works well, but had only been used for single landings at a time (often propelled there by liquid fuel). Fuel management and craft reconfigurations were a big part of the mission (and could have benefited from more planning). Apparently too much fuel was brought along, though that may have been due to the aggressive aerobraking.

Listen, donfede... You're not making this easy for the rest of us!

I toyed with KSP back at 0.18 demo. Purchased at 0.23 release and been noodling with career-mode these last few weeks. After a dozen landings on the Mun and Minmus, I just made my first successful Duna landing and return (although Jeb had to leap from the ship on ascent and use his MMU [KMU?] to achieve orbit around Duna and be rescued by the return capsule; which didn't have RCS itself).

I was pretty chuffed and thought "Now that I'm getting good at this, I'll finally log into the KSP forums and have a go at a challenge"

You've brought me back to Earth (Kerbin) with a thud!

Someday... someday I'll be capable of putting together such a mission; in the meantime I am humbled and in awe!

--Noel

[real-life pilot, KSP amateur]

[jumpyed]

http://imgur.com/a/MABYO#0

This part took way too long.

Edit: And it looks like it corrupted that save...

Edited January 14, 2014 by jumpyed