[1.8+] Real Fuels

[nadseh]

I've just refreshed my KSP install with RSS and Real Fuels v6.4 but I seem to have lost my RF engine configs for KW and NovaPunch engines. Are these obtainable separately?

[NathanKell]

They are, in fact, only obtainable separately. Check post 2 of this thread.

[nadseh]

They are, in fact, only obtainable separately. Check post 2 of this thread.

My mistake, I assumed the "stock engine configs" where in fact only for Squad engines. Now sorted and launching happily

[SpacedInvader]

So I'm running into an odd problem and I'm really not sure what could be causing it. The issue manifests itself like this:

I have a large tank as a long burning primary stage which is then boosted off the pad by liquid or solid boosters. I've got the fuel quantities and thrust limiters set so that as the boosters expire, I've still got about half of my DV left in the core stage with about 4-6 mins of burn left and a TWR of between .7 and 1 (yes, I know that's still high, but it seems to work for me). All of the DV / TWR values are established using both engineer and MJ together. Anyway, with certain engine / fuel configurations, I'm getting all sorts of strange behavior. First off, the fuel in the core stage drains much faster than it should, leading to the vehicle losing first stage DV AND second stage DV at the same time, sometimes depleting a 500,000L tank in about 2 minutes even though the thrust limiter is such that the tank should give an 8 minute burn. In addition to this, I've noticed that rockets with TWRs as low as .8 can lift off with acceleration akin to a vehicle with a TWR closer to 1.5-1.7.

I'm not really sure what's going wrong here. The only time I've ever seen something like this is when I wrote a MM config to add the crossfeed enable module to all the procedural fuel tanks, which led to a situation where my core stage was feeding my booster stages in a reverse asparagus arrangement, but I've since removed that config and anyway this occurs with solid boosters as well as liquid, meaning its unlikely that the solid boosters would be stealing liquid fuel from the core stage. I don't think this would explain the mismatched TWR either. This also only seems to happen with certain engines / configurations, so I'm wondering if it might be an issue in the configs for those specific engines.

Anyway, any thoughts / help would be appreciated here as it's getting quite frustrating trying to build launch vehicles when the DV shown in the editor and on the pad isn't the same DV experienced in flight.

Edited July 15, 2014 by SpacedInvader

[Raptor831]

So I'm running into an odd problem and I'm really not sure what could be causing it. The issue manifests itself like this: ..snip...

You wouldn't be using KIDS, would you? If you are, I'd try it without KIDS for a bit to see if it makes a difference. I had some oddities using both KIDS and RF, since they both adjust the thrust of an engine on the fly. In the VAB I couldn't trust MJ because it wasn't using the thrust that ended up being used on the pad.

[Agathorn]

MJ is always wrong anyway IIRC as it treats the VAB like a vacuum.

[Spanier]

You forgot the large RCS tank from KSPX.

Just add:

@PART[cl_large_shortMonoTank]
{
	//!RESOURCE[LiquidFuel] {}
	//!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
	//!RESOURCE[MonoPropellant] {}
	//!RESOURCE[XenonGas] {}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = 2700
		type = RCSHighEfficiency
	}
}

Edit:

Could you please add, that individual configs for the same engine become unlockable by different Tech-Levels in the next patch.

For example, that you have a level 2 engine running on RP1 and LOX, and can use hypergolic fuels, as you research the tech-node for level 3?

Edited July 15, 2014 by Spanier

[SpacedInvader]

You wouldn't be using KIDS, would you? If you are, I'd try it without KIDS for a bit to see if it makes a difference. I had some oddities using both KIDS and RF, since they both adjust the thrust of an engine on the fly. In the VAB I couldn't trust MJ because it wasn't using the thrust that ended up being used on the pad.

KIDS?

MJ is always wrong anyway IIRC as it treats the VAB like a vacuum.

Yes, MJ is usually a little off, but in this case we're talking about 2k - 4k DV.

I think I may have an idea what it is now though. The recent TACLS update added a MFT module to all command pods, but so does the modified RO pods config that I'm using. They are conflicting and as such one was wiping out the other. The catch though seems to be that I was using a loaded crew vehicle on top of my rockets, which had the old tank from RO, and I think KSP was trying to apply the new tank from TACLS to that, leading to the whole thing getting bugged. Going to try editing the TACLS file to not use MFT in this way to see what I can get out of it.

[Agathorn]

KIDS?

Yes, MJ is usually a little off, but in this case we're talking about 2k - 4k DV.

I think I may have an idea what it is now though. The recent TACLS update added a MFT module to all command pods, but so does the modified RO pods config that I'm using. They are conflicting and as such one was wiping out the other. The catch though seems to be that I was using a loaded crew vehicle on top of my rockets, which had the old tank from RO, and I think KSP was trying to apply the new tank from TACLS to that, leading to the whole thing getting bugged. Going to try editing the TACLS file to not use MFT in this way to see what I can get out of it.

Not sure if you saw this in the RO thread, but you should be deleting the TACLS configs that come with RF, until Nathan releases an update.

[SpacedInvader]

Not sure if you saw this in the RO thread, but you should be deleting the TACLS configs that come with RF, until Nathan releases an update.

I'm not actually using the current RO. I've modified a version which uses most of the tweaks to part functionality (RCS, weight offsets, heatshields, etc) without the size and mass increase because I was tired of being limited to using RO parts, spending hours trying to resize the parts I want, or just having it look weird. Anyway, as a result, I haven't actually been using the new TACLS config.

[Agathorn]

I'm not actually using the current RO. I've modified a version which uses most of the tweaks to part functionality (RCS, weight offsets, heatshields, etc) without the size and mass increase because I was tired of being limited to using RO parts, spending hours trying to resize the parts I want, or just having it look weird. Anyway, as a result, I haven't actually been using the new TACLS config.

Ok well my understanding is that the TAC config in RF is bad? I think? Maybe try the one from RO instead of the one from RF and see if it helps? Worth a shot.

[NathanKell]

Spanier: I will add that. Thanks!

Regarding your request: check the changelog. Already in.

SpacedInavder: All "throttle-limiting" does is add a final multiplier to the throttle you request. Throttle is applied as an interpolation between minThrust and maxThrust. If minThrust already = maxThrust (as it does for unthrottleable engines), then even if you set your throttle limiter ot 1%, you'll still be producing your maximum thrust. However, sounds like MJ doesn't check an engine's min thrust, so it's assuming you can limit the thrust when you can't, and thus calculating things wrong.

tl;dr the throttle limiter limits *throttle*, not thrust.

[SpacedInvader]

Spanier: I will add that. Thanks!

Regarding your request: check the changelog. Already in.

SpacedInavder: All "throttle-limiting" does is add a final multiplier to the throttle you request. Throttle is applied as an interpolation between minThrust and maxThrust. If minThrust already = maxThrust (as it does for unthrottleable engines), then even if you set your throttle limiter ot 1%, you'll still be producing your maximum thrust. However, sounds like MJ doesn't check an engine's min thrust, so it's assuming you can limit the thrust when you can't, and thus calculating things wrong.

tl;dr the throttle limiter limits *throttle*, not thrust.

So basically, if the engine is throttleable, thrust limiter works wonders, if its not, then its just a useless slider? I guess I'll have to go back and have a look at which RftS engines are throttleable and which aren't.

[Starwaster]

KIDS?

Yes, MJ is usually a little off, but in this case we're talking about 2k - 4k DV.

I think I may have an idea what it is now though. The recent TACLS update added a MFT module to all command pods, but so does the modified RO pods config that I'm using. They are conflicting and as such one was wiping out the other. The catch though seems to be that I was using a loaded crew vehicle on top of my rockets, which had the old tank from RO, and I think KSP was trying to apply the new tank from TACLS to that, leading to the whole thing getting bugged. Going to try editing the TACLS file to not use MFT in this way to see what I can get out of it.

KIDS = Kerbal Isp Difficulty Scaler. Does stuff to Isp and thrust. Some of which was already being handled by MFT/RF. If you're also using RSS (which I think you are?) then KIDS is pretty redundant.

IMHO.

[NathanKell]

It always does the same thing: vary the multiplier attached to your throttle (100% limiter means final throttle = your throttle * 1.0; 50% limiter means final throttle = your throttle * 0.5). It's just if throttle does nothing, then limiting throttle does nothing too; and if min throttle is 70%, then setting your throttle limiter as low as it can go will never go below 70% final throttle.

It *is* useful if you want finer throttle control. It's like Capslock / fine controls for your throttle control.

[DeepOdyssey]

Sometimes Real Fuel goes haywire for me, after that i can't input custom amount of fuel into tanks. When i want to erase the numbers by backspace, the cursor just go to the left. Clicking update won't change anything.

I have to readd the fuel tank to remedy this. Maybe it has something to do with modyfing tanks in symmetry mode for example 4 or 6 tanks. Or if you alt tab from game during inputing numbers. Weird.

[Starwaster]

So basically, if the engine is throttleable, thrust limiter works wonders, if its not, then its just a useless slider? I guess I'll have to go back and have a look at which RftS engines are throttleable and which aren't.

It always does the same thing: vary the multiplier attached to your throttle (100% limiter means final throttle = your throttle * 1.0; 50% limiter means final throttle = your throttle * 0.5). It's just if throttle does nothing, then limiting throttle does nothing too; and if min throttle is 70%, then setting your throttle limiter as low as it can go will never go below 70% final throttle.

It *is* useful if you want finer throttle control. It's like Capslock / fine controls for your throttle control.

I don't think you two are talking about the same thing. He said thrust limiter which is a slider tweakable in the VAB, not throttle limit which is an MJ option, and thrust limiter does just what it says. You can set it to 0% on a throttle locked SRB and take it to the launch pad and it will cheerfully sit there putting out 0 thrust..

[NathanKell]

Sorry, we are. It's just that Squad decided to name that thing wrong; it actually limits throttle, not thrust.

SRBs don't have nonzero minThrusts, that's why it works. If SRBs had minThrust = 0.5 * maxThrust, then a ThrustLimiter setting of 0 would lead to exactly minThrust thrust.

(Technically, finalThrust = minThrust + (maxThrust - minThrust) * throttle[0.0...1.0] * thrustLimiter[0....100] / 100)

[Spanier]

Regarding your request: check the changelog. Already in.

Can you please provide a syntax example?

Edit:

Are you planning to make RCS-thrusters to use real fuels, too?

Edited July 16, 2014 by Spanier

[NathanKell]

The RCS thrusters do, it's just provided by Realism Overhaul.

Example

...

CONFIG

{

techRequired = foo

}

That config will only be available if:

1. Not in Career OR

2. In career and have researched the node foo

}

[SpacedInvader]

Can you please provide a syntax example?

Edit:

Are you planning to make RCS-thrusters to use real fuels, too?

Check out ModuleRCSFx

[Spanier]

The RCS thrusters do, it's just provided by Realism Overhaul.

Example

...

CONFIG

{

techRequired = foo

}

That config will only be available if:

1. Not in Career OR

2. In career and have researched the node foo

}

Is it also possible to make a config, that only has the tech levels 1-3 for example, so it stays available in higher tiers, but doesn't get upgraded any more?

My question on RCS was, if they are going to use Hydrazine, HTP, N₂ or hypergolics in the future.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Spanier

[NathanKell]

1. Yes. You can set maxTechLevel.

2. As I said, check out Realism Overhaul. That's where the Modular Engines configs for RCS are.

[Spanier]

1. Yes. You can set maxTechLevel.

2. As I said, check out Realism Overhaul. That's where the Modular Engines configs for RCS are.

Ok, I used Raptors configs up to now, but I will look into it, maybe forge 'em together.

How did you manage it, that RCS-tanks didn't became obsolete when the thrusters use N₂O₄+MMH?

[Raptor831]

Ok, I used Raptors configs up to now, but I will look into it, maybe forge 'em together.

How did you manage it, that RCS-tanks didn't became obsolete when the thrusters use N₂O₄+MMH?

The stockalike config doesn't set up RCS thrusters with Real Fuels anything. That being said, you can get ModuleRCSFX and get the Realism Overhaul RCS configs (as Nathan suggested). That's what I use. Though, I'm not sure how compatible it is with 0.24 out of the gate. Haven't gotten a chance to dig into the new version yet.