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[1.8+] Real Fuels

NathanKell

By NathanKell
in KSP1 Mod Releases

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HoneyFox

HoneyFox

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Hi, yeah I noticed yesterday that my Skipper wasn't very throttleable. I have to check if it is visible somewhere and I didn't noticed it but otherwise there should be a info in what ranges you can throttle the engine (I was able to either shut it down or throttle at higher levels so there appears to be at least some throttle). Unfortunately you can "cheat" by rapidly turning the engine on and off to get a lower average thrust. I don't know if you want to add any "restartability" to it which might make this impossible.

But I also noticed something else. In J_Davis prerelease the mixtures between engines is different. Maybe help the builder and add the percentages of the mixture somewhere when I edit the engine.

Fabian

PS: Okay I took a look at the second image and there is a MinThr info so maybe I didn't look carefully (although I never had an liquid fuelled engine before which weren't throttleable.

For restartability, check this. :) it has been integrated with RF 4.1, and is already in J_Davis' RF engine config. (P.S. it seems like all ignitors in this config are using electric spark-plugs :P is that just a placeholder or what?)

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NathanKell

NathanKell

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J_Davis: please, please reverse that order. As I've mentioned many times, you want to run *leaner* the lower your air pressure.

Order should be (lean->rich): U+, O, U/A/L+, L

/ indicates very similar mixture: essentially U = A = L+, just A has alt compensation and L+ has sea level nozzle rather than high-alt/vacuum nozzle. Or at least that's how I've been treating them (in term of Isp and TWR, etc.)

(Very helpful thread here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23214.0 )

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HoneyFox

HoneyFox

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HoneyFox: That's just because my sheet defaults to that. It was enough work writing the autoconfig maker for that; let alone also adding appropriate quantities of hypergolic pairs *and* setting their use based on thrust.

Ah, that's fine. good enough for later manual editing really.

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xZise

xZise

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For restartability, check this. :) it has been integrated with RF 4.1, and is already in J_Davis' RF engine config. (P.S. it seems like all ignitors in this config are using electric spark-plugs :P is that just a placeholder or what?)

I'll take a look.

[...]I can always make the mixes identical if there's a lot of demand for it, but I think it's interesting to have different mixes for different stages (along with different fuel availabilities).

Shouldn't it be possible for NathanKell to show the percentages for example in the buttons which select the configuration? Like with the tanks?

Fabian

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Scripto23

Scripto23

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Yes, but there's a complete set of SpaceX hardware in the LazTek mod which would be great to have full scale. Dragon / Falcon 9 landing gear / Superdraco etc.

Yes that mod is great! I've been working on a config (with help from Dragon01) that rescales the whole mod and applies realistic mass, thrust, etc and integrates with RealFuels. I hope to have it done by the end of today, I'm just trying to figure out why the CoL is so high up on the rockets requiring large fins on the bottom for stability, which obviously breaks the whole realistic SpaceX theme. Also still tweaking various values to be in line with reality (finding accurate data on rockets that haven't even been built yet is hard). If anyone would be willing to lend a hand to look it over or test I would be very appreciative.

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J_Davis

J_Davis

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Posted (edited)
J_Davis: please, please reverse that order. As I've mentioned many times, you want to run *leaner* the lower your air pressure.

Order should be (lean->rich): U+, O, U/A/L+, L

/ indicates very similar mixture: essentially U = A = L+, just A has alt compensation and L+ has sea level nozzle rather than high-alt/vacuum nozzle. Or at least that's how I've been treating them (in term of Isp and TWR, etc.)

(Very helpful thread here: http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=23214.0 )

I did. I did. I did reverse the order. XD

I just wrote it wrong because I was quickly copying out of my plan file, where the mixes are written as multipliers. I wrote them in order of multiplier.

Also, I've updated the stockalike config. It now supports Stock Engines (*Including LV-N*), B9, AEIS, KW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/19jl7lts1m6xe6q/Stockalike_RF_Engines.cfg

Edited by J_Davis
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xZise

xZise

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[...]Also, I've updated the stockalike config. It now supports Stock Engines (*Including LV-N*), B9, AEIS, KW

https://www.dropbox.com/s/19jl7lts1m6xe6q/Stockalike_RF_Engines.cfg

I'm try using it, but it stops with the nuclearEngine (I don't know if it was able to load it and it stuck at the next). The KSP.log gave me the the following part:

[LOG 00:05:06.579] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'Squad/Parts/Engine/nuclearEngine/part/nuclearEngine'
[WRN 00:05:06.588] PartLoader Warning: Variable ThermalAnim not found in Part
[LOG 00:05:06.589] Added sound_rocket_hard to FXGroup running
[ERR 00:05:06.600] Cannot find module 'ModuleEngines' (1856740933)
[EXC 00:05:06.604] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
[EXC 00:05:06.616] NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

And this was in output.log:

PartLoader: Compiling Part 'Squad/Parts/Engine/nuclearEngine/part/nuclearEngine'

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

PartLoader Warning: Variable ThermalAnim not found in Part

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Added sound_rocket_hard to FXGroup running

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

Cannot find module 'ModuleEngines' (1856740933)

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/ea95e74f6e5f192d/Runtime/ExportGenerated/StandalonePlayer/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 54)

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at ModularFuelTanks.ModuleEngineConfigs.SetConfiguration (System.String newConfiguration) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at ModularFuelTanks.ModuleEngineConfigs.OnLoad (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at PartModule.Load (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part.AddModule (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at PartLoader.ParsePart (.UrlConfig urlConfig, .ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at PartLoader+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
  at ModuleJettison.OnStart (StartState state) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part.ModulesOnStart () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

  at Part+.MoveNext () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 

(Filename:  Line: -1)

Fabian

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J_Davis

J_Davis

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I'm try using it, but it stops with the nuclearEngine (I don't know if it was able to load it and it stuck at the next). Fabian

Man, you did the right thing with actual data, but for once the first line tells the problem. XD

You have to delete the file in the realfuels folder that has the Squad NTR engine in it. If you don't, there's two files trying to change it and it hangs there.

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Silpion

Silpion

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Ok here is what I have so far with Laztek's SpaceX overhaul. Other than the CoL issue I mentioned earlier (tip: you're going to need tail fins), everything seems to be functioning as intended as far as I know. If some people could test it out and let me know what you think that would be great.

Awesome. I've just started playing with it, but a couple things:

1. The craft files that come with the mod are all screwed up now because of the new sizes. Is there a quick and easy way to rescale those, or should we just remake them from scratch?

2. I got a Falcon 9 flying, and had no stability issues even without tail fins. I did have a 12-ton dummy payload, maybe the lack of one makes it unstable (not enough weight in front).

3. The SuperDraco previously had fuel stored (I think) in the engine pods. Now that isn't there, so I have to add an external tank to the Dragon to fuel the SuperDracos. Is there a way to get MMH/N2O2 back in the engine pods, OR in the Dragon?

4. The SuperDraco has oddly low sea level and oddly high vacuum Isp: 71.1 / 348.3 s. Are those real values? The low surface Isp makes it unsuitable for powered landing or early aborts.

5. The SpaceX fairing might have too low of a decoupling force now that it's so much larger. Beef that up?

More when I find them. Great work!

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Scripto23

Scripto23

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Posted (edited)

1. Yes. I've uploaded the Falcon Heavy and the Falcon 9 1.1 with Dragon .crafts that I've been using. Here

2. Hmm, I'll have to try that. Try fly the rockets I've uploaded and let me know if you get instability.

3. At the moment fuel is stored in the pod (click the pod in the action group manager to fill), this isn't optimal but I don't have any better ideas. Edit: I see that I broke that before I uploaded that revision. Will fix.

4. Yeah I agree. Laztek set that ratio in his mod, but I think I'll raise the sea level Isp.

5. Will do, good point.

Thanks and keep the great suggestions coming!

Edited by Scripto23
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NathanKell

NathanKell

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Re: 3, Well, according to the CFG the Dragon pod does have a modular tank in it. So you can put up to 1000L of whatever you want in. Also you can add either a ModuleFuelTanks of appropriate size, or two RESOURCE nodes, to the SuperDraco nacelles.

Also, a note: rather than basemass = part's_mass, when you want to have MFS *not* change the basemass of the part, use basemass = -1 (that's what it's there for :) ).

Regarding SuperDraco, what I could find after quick googling is "~300s": http://www.murc.ws/showthread.php?72548-SpaceX-SuperDraco-abort-landing-thrusters

Now, it doesn't say whether that's SL or Vac; my gut says 270SL, 310 vac would be about right. However, in the cfg it's listed as type O, which is right for the fact that it's pressure-fed, but it assumes a vac nozzle. Try this (also fixes the fact that it's listed as TL0 when it should be TL7--it's certainly not using 1940s technology! :) )

    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleEngineConfigs
        origMass = 0.25
        techLevel = 7
        origTechLevel = 7
        engineType = O
        configuration = MMH+N2O4
        modded = false
        CONFIG
        {
            name = MMH+N2O4
            maxThrust = 134
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = MMH
                ratio = 0.345
                DrawGauge = true
            }
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = N2O4
                ratio = 0.655
            }
            IspSL = 2.15
            IspV = 0.85
            throttle = 0.0
        }
    }

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Scripto23

Scripto23

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Nathan, Thank you! :D I tried to fix the Isp then realized I had no idea how the IspSL, IspV values worked. I've fixed all the aforementioned issues and have uploaded a new revision.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8mq09bh64veanv1/VA7GTqggOf

edit: I tried changing basemass = -1, but it reverted to the variable mass of MFS even though I had @mass = 4.2. I've done something wrong here

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AbeS

AbeS

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What does heatProduction do? with RealEngines my engines keep exploding due to overheating. So I changed heatProduction from 100 to 50, no difference. Then I changed it to 1 and they keep exploding at the same conditions, what should I change?

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AbeS

AbeS

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Posted (edited)

It is an AIES engine here are the RealEngines configs


@PART[liquidEngineprodulVR2]
{
    %title = LR-87 (two)
    %manufacturer = Aerojet
    description = Used in the first stage of the Titan III vehicle, one of the few hypergolic propellant first stage engines in operation.
    !MODEL {}
    !MODEL {}
    MODEL
    {
        model = AIES_Aerospace/Engine/AIESengine produlvr2/model
        scale = 0.83, 0.83, 0.83
    }
    %rescaleFactor = 1.2
    %attachRules = 1,1,1,0,0
}


@PART[liquidEngineprodulVR2]
{
    @mass = 2.274
    @heatProduction = 1
    @MODULE[ModuleEngines]
    {
        @maxThrust = 2387
        @atmosphereCurve
        {
            @key,0 = 0 302
            @key,1 = 1 245
        }
        @PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel]
        {
            @name = Aerozine
            @ratio = 0.453
        }
        @PROPELLANT[Oxidizer]
        {
            @name = N2O4
            @ratio = 0.547
        }
    }
    !MODULE[ModuleEngineConfigs] {}
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleEngineConfigs
        origMass = 2.274
        techLevel = 0
        origTechLevel = 0
        maxTechLevel = 0
        engineType = L
        configuration = Aerozine+N2O4
        modded = false
        CONFIG
        {
            name = Aerozine+N2O4
            maxThrust = 2387
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = Aerozine
                ratio = 0.453
                DrawGauge = true
            }
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = N2O4
                ratio = 0.547
            }
            IspSL = 1.08888888888889
            IspV = 1.208
            throttle = 1
        }
    }
    @MODULE[ModuleGimbal]
    {
        %gimbalRange = 0.6
    }
}

I'm using it on my first stage, when I reach like 100-140 m/s it overheats and explodes:

[00:00:45]: LR-87 (two) exploded due to overheating.

liquidEngineprodulVR2 Exploded!! - blast awesomeness: 0.5

Here is an old picture, but it's almost the same rocket, just added more fuel

GqX1EzWl.png

Edited by AbeS
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Silpion

Silpion

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Scripto:

I've tested your latest rocket and config version:

A) The tech level change in the engines have screwed up the Isp/thrust. Now the engines are either underpowered (tech 0) or way over-efficient (higher tech).

A.5) Also I'm getting a bug (unsure if yours) that when I increase the engine tech level, I can't decrease it again. It defaults to 0.

B) This might be what you were talking to Nathan about, but the Dragon mass has gone way too low now, like 2.5 t.

C) I tried your DragonI rocket, with and without extra ballast, and I think the issue comes from floppiness in the payload, enhanced by the Dragon trunk. When I remove the trunk it performs better. Maybe I didn't see this in my earlier test because I had a dummy payload in a fairing. I'll play with this a bit more tomorrow and the Heavy as well.

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Eadrom

Eadrom

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I have updated the KethaneConverter.cfg file. You can get it here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9504368/KSP/KethaneConverter.zip

Just delete/archive the old config and replace it with mine. The config is located just under the RealFuels folder in your GameData folder.

Couple things to note. The small converter has the stock resources and the 4 RF resources that can reasonably be expected to be obtained from CH4. The large converter has 'em all. However, because 21 conversion options make for a loooong right-click pop-up menu, Alcohol, Amines, and NitricAcid have been commented out of the config. Those of you playing with a resolution higher than 1440x900 can uncomment the modules for those 3 fuels if so desired. If the large converter's menu is still too large for you, you can simply comment out or delete conversion modules for fuels you never use.

Also note that conversion #'s haven't really been balanced. I kept the original values for the large converter. The new values for the small converter and the large converter generally use a default mass ratio of 90% and a heat production of 700. Heat production in this case is internal to the Kethane mod and will not actually increase your actual part's heat. However, if you do run into the problem of converters overheating and exploding from DRE, you can always slap a RF thermal fin on it. It works, kinda, to reduce the temp of the part. In my testing it was not needed, but it's an option should you find yourself with hot converters. Will take suggestions on conversion ratios and electrical charge consumption, etc.

Taniwha suggested using NH2CH2OH with Xenon gas trapped inside it as a quasi-realistic formula for Kethane. It's an actual compound and it comes from space! Read more about it here: http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/707/2/1524

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