How to fold probes and spacestation parts up to fit into "realistic" rockets

[crazyewok]

Im trying to keep all my craft looking as "realistic" as possible with fairings and avoiding that slaped together by a 5 year old look.

So any suggestion were to beguin on getting stations and probes into orbit?

Mods are allowed and welcomed. I aready have KSP Intersteller, Ferram areospace , Joint reinforcement, Novapunch and KOSMOS.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Infernal Robotics? It gives you all sorts of mechanical hinges and turn tables and things that actually turn. With a little bit of work you could probably design something that can pack up small, but expand out to something much larger.

[barrenwaste]

If you want to stay stock, like I do, use clipping to keep your sats and landers compact and streamlined. Then, you just need a decoupler to pop them out and go.

[crazyewok]

If you want to stay stock, like I do, use clipping to keep your sats and landers compact and streamlined. Then, you just need a decoupler to pop them out and go.

Whats Clipping?

[barrenwaste]

Clipping is attaching a part inside of another. For example, placing a rocket inside a turbojet so that you have two engines in one. The best way to do it is with small cubic struts. They can be turned using w,a,s,d in the sph during construction so that you attach something to the part of the strut inside a fuel tank or structural element.

[TheAwer]

Clipping is attaching a part inside of another.

And be warned, many people HATE this and consider it cheating. But realistic crafts and ones that don't look ridiculous often use this. Press F12 (I think?) to open the debug menu, and there's an enable part clipping option (or something like that. I haven't used it.)

[barrenwaste]

You don't need to open the debug menu, I never have. There is plenty of ways to part clip without using the cheats.

[Rune]

You don't need to open the debug menu, I never have. There is plenty of ways to part clip without using the cheats.

Right, but turning it on makes it way easier, and since you are doing the same thing, whether by intentional cheats or by unintentional bugs... I really don't get why people have to scream to the four winds they didn't turn part clipping on to clip something. Congratulations, you exploited a bug in order to avoid using a cheat. Seems a rather pointless investment of time IMO.

Edit: In order for this post to be somewhat informative and not just a rant, I will incluse a short accounting of my own particular history with clipping, you may or may not extract some short of conclusions and/or advice from it. Here it goes:

I first started using clipping, I think, like everyone does: by accident. I still didn't get the building UI, hadn't looked up the controls on the wiki or anything, and I screwed up. I just dismissed it as a bug. Some time later, after I was already comfortable with the building UI, the structural parts got introduced (this way back at 0.17 or something like that, when I started playing). And with them the cubic orthogonal strut! Now clipping actually could be used in constructive way, to stick intakes in unlikely places. It was then that I started to notice some behaviors that actually got clipping to happen, to exploit it, but I was also shown the dark side of the coin, and the reason we say that clipping is like a superpower: "with great power comes great responsibility". In this case, great explosions.

See, the buggy no-clip rules are there for a reason. First, during building, clipping can make the UI confused about the part roots and make some truly spectacular bugs. I especially hate the one where you can't place a clipped set of parts with symmetry, but when you finally drop it you realize it did actually stick... only on top of itself, several times, bugging the craft file. Ever happened that to you, BTW? CTRL-Z immediately when it happens, the only way to not screw up the craft file. Then there are the RUD episodes when docking or relating to docking ports, especially those involving clipped cubic struts. NEVER put a docking on top of one of those, trust me. And the phantom forces... I had one of those recently, and yeah, it involved a docking port that was accidentally clipping a nearby structural element. Wasted flight, and you should have seen my face when the station started rotating for no apparent reason, faster and faster every second. ^^'

And yet, even while all those rules are there (supposedly) so you can't make a ship that will spontaneously combust on the launch pad, still there are times when they actually conflict with what should be legitimate ways of placing things. Ever been frustrated by having to place a cluster engine by engine because it wouldn't let you do it with symmetry? It always pisses me off when it happens, and you loose hours of your life to getting around that, or sacrifice symmetry (and I'm a bit OCD about that, never mind balancing issues).

Another one of those fancy rules is "surface attachment", for example. Some parts have it on, some off (and you can only place them at nodes). That means some parts are hell to place because they want to stick everywhere, and yet other parts can't be strutted because from because they don't seem to have a surface mesh. Really, an exploiter's dream. Combine that with the weird placement rules that partially disables clipping if you are moving a part form that has already been placed in a legal site, and yes, you can pretty much clip 90% of the stuff you can clip with the "cheat" activated.

Anyhow, bugs apart, yet some more time later, and used to bring up the editor tools to turn part clipping off by default every time I got into the game, I got to learn about the mod "Editor tools". That basically makes your life even easier by taking all those rules to avoid bugs, and giving you the option to turn them on and off as you please with handy keyboard shortcuts. I love it! It has cut my building time in half, and I save on parts by placing stuff with surface attachment mode. I totally recommend it, it will save you a lot of headaches once you learn its tricks (look up a tutorial/wiki!).

So yeah, in my opinion, the building UI has a learning curve, and it's not an easy one. And there are tricks that is good to know, and others that will save you a lot of time. Yet others will allow you to test the limits of the game in fun and spectacular ways that resemble real-world physics the way technobabble does in sci-fi (I want to remember here the "

": I think that marvel of kerbal engineering was, indeed, powered by the magic of two vessels, the kerbal and the egg interacting and clipping each other through the magic of ladders. Seriously, look it up, it's glorious). And remember: how much you try to bend the laws of physics with those tricks... well, that's up to you.

Anyhow, what makes a design look "realistic" or "cheaty" is entirely subjective IMO, so YMMV. I just try not to say that any way is inherently better, or you should play in a specific way. Just that there are easy ways to do things, and hard ways.

Rune. Choose your favorite.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Rune

[junie]

Right, but turning it on makes it way easier, and since you are doing the same thing, whether by intentional cheats or by unintentional bugs... I really don't get why people have to scream to the four winds they didn't turn part clipping on to clip something. Congratulations, you exploited a bug in order to avoid using a cheat. Seems a rather pointless investment of time IMO.

Anyhow, what makes a design look "realistic" or "cheaty" is entirely subjective IMO, so YMMV. I just try not to say that any way is inherently better, or you should play in a specific way. Just that there are easy ways to do things, and hard ways.

Rune. Choose your favorite.

Thank you for saying what I have been thinking since KSP .18. If it brings you enjoyment then play in your own manner, not in the manner of the so called "pros".

[lajoswinkler]

Clipping = explosions and Kraken

[wasmic]

Recommended mods? Procedural Fairings, KW Rocketry and NovaPunch. If you're into spaceplanes, I'd also recommend B9 aerospace. For outboard launches (space shuttle style), there's the Space Shuttle Engines mod.

[barrenwaste]

@Rune

I'm not saying don't use the mods or console, if that makes it fun for you, go for it. But you hit the nail on the head when you said they make it easier. That is precisely why I do it without the mods and the console. For me the difficulty of the build is part of what I enjoy and am proud of at the end of it. There is another reason to do it without mods and cheats as well, challenges. Most challenges are for stock craft only and also disallow the console. Learning how to do it all without those means you'll be able to participate in more challenges. The final reason for clipping is that it allows you to make smoother more streamlined stock platforms. Maybe it doesn't matter to you, personally, but it is still a reason that many people do find important.

Also, I haven't had the problems you describe about Rapid Unplanned Disassembly or with multiple stacks of an item. It can be a chore at times to get a set of pieces to attach, but I haven't ever had multiple stacks like you describe. Perhaps you should try again, it may be that it has been fixed or that you were simply doing something in a less than optimal way.

Edited January 16, 2014 by barrenwaste

[Rune]

@Rune

I'm not saying don't use the mods or console, if that makes it fun for you, go for it. But you hit the nail on the head when you said they make it easier. That is precisely why I do it without the mods and the console. For me the difficulty of the build is part of what I enjoy and am proud of at the end of it. There is another reason to do it without mods and cheats as well, challenges. Most challenges are for stock craft only and also disallow the console. Learning how to do it all without those means you'll be able to participate in more challenges. The final reason for clipping is that it allows you to make smoother more streamlined stock platforms. Maybe it doesn't matter to you, personally, but it is still a reason that many people do find important.

Also, I haven't had the problems you describe about Rapid Unplanned Disassembly or with multiple stacks of an item. It can be a chore at times to get a set of pieces to attach, but I haven't ever had multiple stacks like you describe. Perhaps you should try again, it may be that it has been fixed or that you were simply doing something in a less than optimal way.

Oh, you misunderstand the history a tiny bit . I already learned all those tricks, and know how to use them, I just choose not to, mainly to save time. The "challenge" part, I already did, and I encourage anyone to try it or experiment in general. It's the only way to get the really complicated stuff like how to manage fuel routing in heavily clipped designs.

But after that? Yeah, I went for convenient over complicated on the SSTO Mk XXIV. I think that's the last one I showcased. And my denomination excludes a lot of one-offs that flew with mods or modified for a specific purpose, or were a straight copy from spy imagery (I do that a lot, recreate designs from the spacecraft exchange without downloading the .craft), I don't count those, so I'm probably nearing 50 SSTO's since about... 0.18 I think I flew the first one. Anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is, don't assume people use the cheats because they can't do without them. The main reason I use them is to save on parts while maintaining a clean finish that looks really cool, and with the least amount of cursing in the VAB. I'll try not to assume all mechjeb users are poor pilots in return

As to RUD, I encourage you to dock two ships that are joined by shielded docking ports placed on clipped cubic struts. Extra points if some other part has part of its collision mesh barely inside the moving part of the port. Get them to not blow up as soon as physics load, or when the port opens. Now dock two of those... and back off a respectable distance.

Edit: I serached for the craft file, but couldn't find it it. This design:

The nose of that SSTO is a perfect example of what I'm saying. You can get that (fuel tank, docking port, and cockpit) arranged in that configuration three ways: No clipping, an extra cubic ortogonal strut, and lots of building experience, and perhaps a couple of tries, and you'll have to use other auxiliary parts while building to trigger some bugs. The second way is with clipping on, a cubic strut again, and half the time. Then there is with the mod Editor Tools, part clipping on, surface attachment on, and no extra parts, saving one part and loads of time (it's all through shortcuts). Pick one, I go for the third, all will work on all computers and KSP versions with or without mods or part clipping on. If you do it wrong and the cockpit collides with the active part of the docking port, though... just try it and dock it .

And the stacking bugs are something you only get with part clipping activated. It's an issue I know well, I encounter it very frequently and have designed my workarounds around it (to replicate, stack intakes in a line of cubic struts in front of a fuel tank, then try to place it with symmetry on, and it works pretty much every time to anger the KSP gods, at least with editor tools installed). One of those things the developers are trying to save us from with all those anti-clip rules. As I said, with great power....

Rune. Head on to R-SUV to see some of the most clipped designs you can get... always for the sake of aesthetics, of course.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Rune

[Markus Reese]

What I do, and what other people do is use the structural beams to assist in compact probes. It is quite easy to get a probe into the 1m space and looking differently. I also used to use KW rocketry fairing packages to really smooth it out. Back in the day, I would make all landers etc specifically to fit into the 2m fairing packages. The KW pack has a ton of stuff, so is best to save somewhere else then edit it just for the parts you want.

Anywhoo, well planned, once in space, jettison panels (I do it before my circularizing burn just so it burns up) and then commence unfolding.

Note that doing it this way for stations and such can mean more joints which can equal wobbly so some clever thinking can be required to make sure you get stong joints or low mass. For heavier parts, I actually put probe controls and panel onto my booster. When I dock a large section up, I can jettison and control the probe part into a de-orbit. This step not so necessary now that we can select crew compliment for a mission.

I don't have any recent screenshots, but here are some old ones that I did for a mun base challenge a long while ago to give some design ideas. All of what you see fit streamlined with fairings at the 2m size. For the most part, or I made it a rocket that was steamlined with side attached. They still looked good.

Lastly, here is a rocket with an underslung probe. Easily hidden if I used 1m fairings. I use it specifically for pinpointing mun landing spots before I send down the bigger lander. Having the target really makes things more fun!

[Traches]

But you hit the nail on the head when you said they make it easier. That is precisely why I do it without the mods and the console. For me the difficulty of the build is part of what I enjoy and am proud of at the end of it

True for parts packs maybe, but all the really good mods make the game harder.

[Motokid600]

Or just build smaller and construct in orbit. Anything that gives you a reason to perform more dockings is a plus.

[crazyewok]

Thanks for the replies.

[Rickenbacker]

Procedural Fairings mod? Not sure if it's updated for 0.23, but I used it in a previous version, and was very impressed!

[crazyewok]

Procedural Fairings mod? Not sure if it's updated for 0.23, but I used it in a previous version, and was very impressed!

Yup have it and its great.

[Markus Reese]

Heya, actually I remembered I have a video where I did everything using stock parts and "Aerodynamic" designs. The actual video is a story I did, but at this time point, you can see how I assemble my vehicle in space to get it to Eve and the entire thing looks correct for every stage of landing. Even the complex lander for when I get back to kerbin is pretty decent. Not embedded video simply because that doesn't use timesets.

http://youtu.be/OLDXaEyR_LM?t=8m3s

[SuperBigD60]

I know the solution I used for getting my space station to fit in my shuttle's cargo bay was just to make a lot of pieces with a lot of docking ports. Then it was just a matter of how many launches I felt like doing.

Notice I've got four large docking ports for continued construction and four medium ones for docking smaller crafts once the station is complete

[maxdreamland]

Somebody already recommended "Infernal Robotics" and there is a great video about a compact satelite that fits inside a fairing and "unfolds" once in orbit. You should check this out for inspiration:

[Javster]

Regarding clipping, I don't consider it cheating unless you put 5 tanks of fuel inside one, or if you stack intakes. Putting batteries inside a cockpit is fine IMO.