Move "Show off your awesome KSP pictures!" back to the General forum

[sjwt]

Alright, want to hear my personal opinion? We have way too many subforums. Yes. I've been saying this for months and I personally really don't like the "vicious stance against threads in a slightly wrong place" that sometimes shines through. Why? Well, because even we sometimes just don't know where a thread would be best suited. Way too many forums with quite some overlap on the one hand and huge gaps on the other between these forums.

That does not, however, mean we should dump everything into KSPGen. Just because people can't be arsed to leave KSPGen for a bit doesn't mean we should just kill everything else and just have one huge dump. Threads go where they belong, even if "where they belong" is utterly nonsensical because of the mess that has been created - but we can, at a later point (once we have a better solution to this all), change the mess and tidy it up. We can't really do that when KSPGen is essentially the only forum ever with absolutely everything posted in it.

Less sub forums would cause the same problem ever ones compiling about, threads dispersing faster then you can count. In some forums you can be off the first page in hours, dead and burred and that's with the setting for maximum threads per page. The problem with thread in the wrong place is that all the general sections/sub forums are at the top, so they are the first place new ppl see, rather then seeing a sub forum for problems with mods, they see a sub forum for problems and post their.

I personally don't see what sub forums should disappear apart from the ones under KSP Network, but those are separated so we can get the ppl who deal with those issues only having to troll though related problems.

[sjwt]

But the thing is, the community drives the forum, at some point people either accept that, or their community dries up.

Happens all the time.

Communities also destroy forums and them selves, happens all the time. The point of moderation is that age old rule...

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat"

Does everyone want to be swimming in Roleplaying and MLP posts and imagines and MLP adult content? No! But their was enough of the community to try and justify it, squad decided that these elements although embraced by a lot of ppl caused more harm then good.

Mob rule *is not* the best system.

[katateochi]

Just adding my vote to say Please move Awesome pictures back to GD.

I agree that there needs to be some degree of organisation but at the same time too much organisation has detracted from the enjoyment of this forum.

Awesome pictures is a special case, its not like any other thread. Its a showcase of just how awesome KSP is and how creative its players can be, it's a fantastic advert for KSP. It should be in a place where new (and casual) users see it as it gives new users some ideas about what is possible. It also gives us old hands inspiration (and fuels a bit of a competitive spirit), showcases a multitude of mods and quickly gives a sense of what everyone is up to, without having to trawl through loads of separate threads. I other words, it does a number of general things, its natural home is General Discussion.

I also think it was a bit poor that this poll got moved out of GD so quickly. I only happened to see it (in GD) late last night but it was too late to write anything coherent. Today I had to hunt around for it, if I hadn't seen it last night I would not have known it was there at all. It hasn't been given a fair chance to collect our opinions. I bet if it was still in GD it would be 5 or 6 pages long by now and with a strong vote to move AP back to GD. While putting this poll in FF may be absolutely correct in terms of organisation, it feels like an underhand move to hide something and doesn't represent what the community wants.

So, Dear mods, Pretty Please, can you move awesome pictures back to GD and please be less hasty to move topics out of GD before people (from many different time zones) have had a chance to see them.

[_Aramchek_]

Communities also destroy forums and them selves, happens all the time. The point of moderation is that age old rule...

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it.

Wow, at least this explains why you don't care what the community itself thinks.

Hubris is a killer.

Edited January 16, 2014 by _Aramchek_

[vexx32]

The "community itself" is a contradiction. The community isn't a hive mind, it has no "self". It's composed of thousands of individual people... and apparently you're attempting to speak for all of them? Speaking for yourself is all well and good, but extending oneself beyond that leads to an innumerable amount of logical fallacies, I've found...

I've done it before, myself; it never ends well...

[Captain Sierra]

Okay, this needs to end. I specifically talked with Sal about this, as I am sure many of us in here have. For starters, move this back to general. Mods putting it here is, at least from what I have seen in the past, an attempt to bury this. of our "5000 active users" how many come down here? That's what I thought. This needs to get back to general where those 5000 users know this exists and can voice their opinions. It does nobody any good.

Secondly, the pictures thread is slowly dying, because fan works is a necro forum. The evidence:

I'm only 17. Back when I used to do poetry for fun, I was NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED and published in a childrens poetry anthology. I've since moved over to novel fiction. I can do some amazing write-ups in Fan Works but I'm lucky to get 10 comments. If that doesn't sink in, then the mod team is clearly living in an illusion. I'm more than willing to discuss how to improve fan works but this isn't the time or place.

The only way to get a representative sample of the community is General, because everyone lurks there. Let's get this back there and actually get a legitimate community poll, which, according to Sal, would be enough to have pictures moved back.

EDIT:

as further evidence of the Forum Forum's neglect, I'd like to point out that half the comments at least since it was moved are by moderators.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Captain Sierra

[_Aramchek_]

The "community itself" is a contradiction. The community isn't a hive mind, it has no "self". It's composed of thousands of individual people... and apparently you're attempting to speak for all of them? Speaking for yourself is all well and good, but extending oneself beyond that leads to an innumerable amount of logical fallacies, I've found...

I've done it before, myself; it never ends well...

The evidence, however, and consensus of this thread "you*" have tried to also bury, supports my argument.

The counter arguments are "we want more people to use sub-forums" and, astoundingly enough, "people are stupid".

More people "polled" and that have chimed in would like to see the thread in GD and think that putting it here is "burying" it.

---------

Hubris.

---------

* a general non pointy finger "you", no one in particular.

Edited January 16, 2014 by _Aramchek_

[Rowsdower]

While everyone's thoughts, especially in the poll are greatly being taken into consideration, for the moment, please respect our decision to move both threads. At the end of the day, it simply comes down to organization and expansion. Burying, or any similarly superficial thought was definitely not in mind. It's only been a few days, so the results are still unclear, but as I said, if it doesn't look good, it can be reconsidered. However, right now, things are staying put.

It would be greatly appreciated that for all of the effort you're putting through in your comments here, why not try it in Fan Works? Help out with word of mouth around the forums. Wave the flag more and let's see what happens. The aim is to get more eyes and interaction happening all over the forum, not just the typical haunts. We're going to be doing our part. Your strength in this will go a long way.

[sal_vager]

Where a thread is shouldn't change whether it is a good thread or not, or whether you feel you can post in it.

Many members don't post outside of a few areas, like GD and the Lounge, these places are more accepting of general ideas or random thoughts, and it's easy for members to not only come up with suitable content, but also to contribute to the discussion.

This is admittedly harder in some areas like Addon Development, where you really need to know what you're doing or be interested in getting started with mod development.

Fanworks is supposed to be open to all however, no matter your skill, we want to see what you can do

And especially in image threads, everyone can contribute and it's a lot of fun, it also helps to draw other members to fanworks when there are notable threads there as they are more likely to find all the other cool threads that don't fit in GD, especially if they look here.

Fanworks is the home of the creative types here, but everyone can make something, so rather than worry about having a thread in GD come over to Fanworks and have a blast, share your stuff, it's just a click away

[Captain Sierra]

While everyone's thoughts, especially in the poll are greatly being taken into consideration, for the moment, please respect our decision to move both threads. At the end of the day, it simply comes down to organization and expansion. Burying, or any similarly superficial thought was definitely not in mind. It's only been a few days, so the results are still unclear, but as I said, if it doesn't look good, it can be reconsidered. However, right now, things are staying put.

It would be greatly appreciated that for all of the effort you're putting through in your comments here, why not try it in Fan Works? Help out with word of mouth around the forums. Wave the flag more and let's see what happens. The aim is to get more eyes and interaction happening all over the forum, not just the typical haunts. We're going to be doing our part. Your strength in this will go a long way.

Ordinarily I'd be extremely blunt about this, but I'm willing to be a bit less aggressive since you are fairly new. These forums have a problem. That problem is over-categorization. People lurk primarily in general. Currently, it's very hard to get them out. Moving a good thread to Fan Works is a logical concept to draw people to it. Unfortunately, people are stupid. That thread is extremely easily found but nobody looked. All the threads asking are testament to that. There are many ways I can think of to draw attention to fan works, but those are thoughts for another time and place.

Now I'm gonna be blunt.

"It is better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt."

I get that you are new and want to make a lasting impression in a good way. That's human nature. but moving that thread does not draw attention to Fan Works. I understand the underlying goal to diversify the forums and spread the traffic, but you went about it all the wrong ways.

I spoke to Sal about getting it moved. he said that it can be done if a large enough group of people support it. Now tell me, HOW THE **** ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT WHEN OUR THREAD IS GETTING BURIED BY THE SAME MODS THAT MOVED THE PICTURES THREAD!!!!!! One thread does not attract attention to a forum, it kills the thread. You want to do something to get attention to a forum? move a large group of popular threads there. Specifically, give coop and pass-the-save-multiplayer roleplay games a sub-forum in Fan Works. Take them out of spacecraft exchange and give them a place. They attract lots of attention, generate good mission reports, and ultimately make a lot of interaction. THAT will help Fan Works.

Also, let's get one thing clear. The conversation in this thread is not our strength. At least for me, that's not what you garnered. You garnered my wrath.

You wanna make a difference? You can start by listening to your community rather than burying their complaints. Cleaning up general does not fix the problem, which is in fact CAUSED by throwing threads to the four winds and scattering them around. Overzealous thread moving is the PROBLEM, not the solution.

You want our support on getting fan works active? Okay. First, you have to convince us (at least me) that you are going to do a good job, and that means listening. how? I'm gonna go create another poll in General Discussion. Now, that can go either two ways. I can have your support in allowing the community to express it's opinions or I can do it alone and viciously call out the mods commenting in this thread for brutally burying our first attempt, and yes, I will name names.

I'm all for helping Fan Works, but reading your comment makes me fairly certain you did not bother to read half the comments in here.

[Captain Sierra]

Where a thread is shouldn't change whether it is a good thread or not, or whether you feel you can post in it.

Many members don't post outside of a few areas, like GD and the Lounge, these places are more accepting of general ideas or random thoughts, and it's easy for members to not only come up with suitable content, but also to contribute to the discussion.

This is admittedly harder in some areas like Addon Development, where you really need to know what you're doing or be interested in getting started with mod development.

Fanworks is supposed to be open to all however, no matter your skill, we want to see what you can do

And especially in image threads, everyone can contribute and it's a lot of fun, it also helps to draw other members to fanworks when there are notable threads there as they are more likely to find all the other cool threads that don't fit in GD, especially if they look here.

Fanworks is the home of the creative types here, but everyone can make something, so rather than worry about having a thread in GD come over to Fanworks and have a blast, share your stuff, it's just a click away

You . . .

You assured me that it could be moved back if a large portion of the community supports it.

now, HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO DO THAT IF THE THREAD KEEPS GETTING BURIED????

Let's face it, this forum is more dead than Fan Works. Now, as per what you specifically told me over PM, we need a large community support. That community is in General. While that is an issue that should be fixed, it is still the cold truth. Now, if I am to uphold the method which you assured me would work, I need it in writing that the mods will leave it alone for at minimum, 48 hours. That's what needs to happen to find out what the community at large wants. If I cannot get that, I have no choice but to call out the entire mod team as not giving a darn as to what the community actually wants.

[Rowsdower]

Ordinarily I'd be extremely blunt about this, but I'm willing to be a bit less aggressive since you are fairly new. These forums have a problem. That problem is over-categorization. People lurk primarily in general. Currently, it's very hard to get them out. Moving a good thread to Fan Works is a logical concept to draw people to it. Unfortunately, people are stupid. That thread is extremely easily found but nobody looked. All the threads asking are testament to that. There are many ways I can think of to draw attention to fan works, but those are thoughts for another time and place.

Now I'm gonna be blunt.

"It is better to be thought a fool and remain silent, than to speak and remove all doubt."

I get that you are new and want to make a lasting impression in a good way. That's human nature. but moving that thread does not draw attention to Fan Works. I understand the underlying goal to diversify the forums and spread the traffic, but you went about it all the wrong ways.

I spoke to Sal about getting it moved. he said that it can be done if a large enough group of people support it. Now tell me, HOW THE **** ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO THAT WHEN OUR THREAD IS GETTING BURIED BY THE SAME MODS THAT MOVED THE PICTURES THREAD!!!!!! One thread does not attract attention to a forum, it kills the thread. You want to do something to get attention to a forum? move a large group of popular threads there. Specifically, give coop and pass-the-save-multiplayer roleplay games a sub-forum in Fan Works. Take them out of spacecraft exchange and give them a place. They attract lots of attention, generate good mission reports, and ultimately make a lot of interaction. THAT will help Fan Works.

Also, let's get one thing clear. The conversation in this thread is not our strength. At least for me, that's not what you garnered. You garnered my wrath.

You wanna make a difference? You can start by listening to your community rather than burying their complaints. Cleaning up general does not fix the problem, which is in fact CAUSED by throwing threads to the four winds and scattering them around. Overzealous thread moving is the PROBLEM, not the solution.

You want our support on getting fan works active? Okay. First, you have to convince us (at least me) that you are going to do a good job, and that means listening. how? I'm gonna go create another poll in General Discussion. Now, that can go either two ways. I can have your support in allowing the community to express it's opinions or I can do it alone and viciously call out the mods commenting in this thread for brutally burying our first attempt, and yes, I will name names.

I'm all for helping Fan Works, but reading your comment makes me fairly certain you did not bother to read half the comments in here.

Captain Sierra, I understand you're upset and I assure you that I've read the thread, however the decision still stands. I've stated twice now why it has and twice over, I've stated that if it we feel it hasn't worked, we will consider moving things back. It's going to take more than a few days to see the effects, especially if there's greater movement for community traffic to settle there and other areas around the forum. Your patience is appreciated.

[sal_vager]

Captain Sierra, you are expecting instant action but all things take time, Rowsdower did say that he'd consider moving it back but you've allowed him no time to consider it.

These two posts of yours were unwarrented, and your language unnecessary, you damage your chances of seeing the Pics thread restored if you act this way.

And before you go "naming names" I moved that thread, so you can stop taking it out on Rowsdower and anyone else.

[_Aramchek_]

There are only two threads that appear to be interesting to me in there, and those are both picture threads.

They are seemingly a bit out of place amongst everything else as far as I can tell/see, in that they are not similar to the writing threads etc..

I'll say it again, the end user should dictate the "form" of the board, after all it's THIER interest you are trying to grab and keep, otherwise people will simply migrate away/never really stay or just talk about teh game elsewhere.

When interesting topics are buried too much no one really see's them, you have to have them in a "common" area.

[Rowsdower]

So, _Aramchek_, would you be for more or less organization of the section?

[NuclearWarfare]

Please, some of you, have respect for the moderator team's decisions on this subject. Arguing is never the right answer when it comes to these and everything will go smoothly if we have a calm discussion.

[Captain Sierra]

Calm is a good word to describe where the private convo me and Sal are having has gone. It does not describe the gravity of the situation here. Some mods' responses, particularly the latter, ignore many of the more logically sound points raised here and instead try to cajole us into accepting their decision rather than standing up for what the apparent consensus of the community dictates is right.

From what I am seeing, this thread is not making any headway, regardless of how peaceful I seem. Meanwhile, Sal and I are having a wonderful conversation and might be making some progress while this appears to have stalled at immovable object meets unstoppable force.

[Yakuzi]

That doesn't mean a couple of members of the community have veto rights over the administration of the forums. The forum has over 5000 active members. A few do not speak for the opinions of all.

Good thing there are polls then. Did you know that polls are quite a nifty method to get the opinion of the community... given you don't bury it in a forsaken abyss of the forum where less than 1% of the stated 5000 active members visit.

If you really want to know the opinion of the community, move this thread back to general discussion.

[vexx32]

This isn't about burying the poll. This is about not making a complete mess of the forum as a whole.

While everyone's thoughts, especially in the poll are greatly being taken into consideration, for the moment, please respect our decision to move both threads. At the end of the day, it simply comes down to organization and expansion. Burying, or any similarly superficial thought was definitely not in mind. It's only been a few days, so the results are still unclear, but as I said, if it doesn't look good, it can be reconsidered. However, right now, things are staying put.

It would be greatly appreciated that for all of the effort you're putting through in your comments here, why not try it in Fan Works? Help out with word of mouth around the forums. Wave the flag more and let's see what happens. The aim is to get more eyes and interaction happening all over the forum, not just the typical haunts. We're going to be doing our part. Your strength in this will go a long way.

[Aphox]

It would be greatly appreciated that for all of the effort you're putting through in your comments here, why not try it in Fan Works? Help out with word of mouth around the forums. Wave the flag more and let's see what happens. The aim is to get more eyes and interaction happening all over the forum, not just the typical haunts. We're going to be doing our part. Your strength in this will go a long way.

This. Mountains are being made of molehills here, folks. The only reason the term "buried" is even a thing around here is because people are down-right refusing to visit other sub-forums. It's literally a case of moving your mouse another 5 centimeters down your screen. While I agree with FEichinger that we do have far too many sub-forums, that doesn't mean threads should be in places they obviously don't belong, and yeah, sometimes it's a tough call. We're working with Rowsdower and the senior moderation staff to possibly cut down on a few of them.

EDIT:

as further evidence of the Forum Forum's neglect, I'd like to point out that half the comments at least since it was moved are by moderators.

I fail to see how this has any bearing on the subject and would like to point out that this thread is directly contesting the team's decision; would you really expect us not to flood in here?

I'm not sure. If the transfer was to lower the number of posts people make, then I agree with the admins' decision. People are spamming on that thread, putting entire missions to show off even if they aren't doing anything remotely interesting.

The thread has lots its meaning. Those aren't awesome pictures, those are... pictures. Their total quality is very low..

This had nothing to do with the thread's move, but I have to agree. I'm not saying everyone's work isn't awesome, but it has turned into a bit of a "mission dump". Perhaps, in fan works, those who actually care to look for the thread (see: people that post screenshots in there to begin with) will revive it with high-quality content.

At the end of the day, we really all do appreciate the community's input, but we appreciate staff input, as well. As mentioned, we're not machines and are people like the rest of you, with varying opinions regarding the set-up and organization of the current state of the forums. We respect your opinions and choices, please respect ours.

[_Aramchek_]

This. Mountains are being made of molehills here, folks. The only reason the term "buried" is even a thing around here is because people are down-right refusing to visit other sub-forums. It's literally a case of moving your mouse another 5 centimeters down your screen. While I agree with FEichinger that we do have far too many sub-forums, that doesn't mean threads should be in places they obviously don't belong, and yeah, sometimes it's a tough call. We're working with Rowsdower and the senior moderation staff to possibly cut down on a few of them.

Less categorization is BETTER.

AND, if people don't want to, and don't use the sub-forum, what that SHOULD tell "you", is that maybe instead of expecting everyone who visits your forum to change for "your" peace of mind, you should do what the community likes and what more closeley reflects the browsing habits of people who vist.

OR, ya know, kill the forum off with the "people are stupid and must do what "I" want" stuff. *

Hubris. A killer. /repetition.

*Was said by a mod in the thread. /paraphrased for clarity.

Edited January 18, 2014 by _Aramchek_

[vexx32]

No, less categorisation is not better. It's just different. Don't make blanket statements like that unless you can back it up with real evidence.

We are here to help keep things tidy, and make sure that altercations don't start. We're not here to cater to the whims of those who think we should be subject to the community. We're not doing it for our piece of mind. We're doing it because letting it go the way you suggest is a surefire way to tick people off and cause a great big mess.

General Discussion is a popular forum because nobody bothers to post anywhere else, for the most part... But that doesn't mean it'd be a good idea to reduce the forum down to two sections just because they're the most popular ones.

And if you're going to "paraphrase" like that, you should probably link to the post and/or provide a direct quote, because you clearly got the wrong end of the stick and misinterpreted what was being said.

[_Aramchek_]

No, less categorisation is not better. It's just different. Don't make blanket statements like that unless you can back it up with real evidence.

In terms of forums it is, and the best ones do not over categorize or try to make everybody sink hours of their most precious resource, time, into the website sifting through things they DON'T want to see just to get to the gems.

Categorization actually hinders this past a certain point, and instead of looking at things the way "you" want people to people are going to just steamroll right along doing what they want to do.

Like a tsunami, that will carry all of your readers away eventually.

Many years of experience has shown me that.

As per the dual edged sword of "blanket statements", you want to be careful with that one, because if you really want to use that line of reasoning you invalidate your own arguments as well.

We are here to help keep things tidy,

But yet seem unwilling to do so in a way that reflects the wants of the forum members, which is the opposite of how it should be, if you want to keep the forum "happy" anyway.

I really do think stepping back, backing down off of the "this is how we will do it and tough if you don't like it" stance, would be beneficial to ALL, mods and community members alike.

We're not here to cater to the whims of those who think we should be subject to the community.

Then this is not any kind of threat, nothing of the sort, it's just telling you that with that line of reasoning, you will kill the community.

/end.

Hubris is a killer.

We're not doing it for our piece of mind.

It's being done as a shortcut, and again, I'm telling you, that stuff kills forums. Ignore that advice at your own peril.

because letting it go the way you suggest is a surefire way to tick people off and cause a great big mess.

Obviously not if most people say they want it to be the way that you claim will bring chaos to the lands.

General Discussion is a popular forum because nobody bothers to post anywhere else, for the most part.

I've mentioned why that is, and why that is unlikely to change, sometimes the best option is to compromise, but I'm telling you this, the content, other than picture threads which have broad appeal, the content in that sub forum is NEVER going to appeal to as wide of an audience as a picture thread.

Instead of fighting it, figure out how to fix it without insulting the people who more or less keep you going. Because again, that never goes well.

.. But that doesn't mean it'd be a good idea to reduce the forum down to two sections just because they're the most popular ones.

And if you're going to "paraphrase" like that, you should probably link to the post and/or provide a direct quote, because you clearly got the wrong end of the stick and misinterpreted what was being said.

Semantics games will not work with me, the implication of what was said is "people are stupid, and this is what we're going to do".

And further comments have only made that implication clearer.

[vexx32]

The amount of hubris I am hearing is ridiculous, for someone who says it's a killer.

If you don't approve, that's your opinion. It doesn't make it correct, or right. If you do not trust us to do our jobs properly, that's entirely your own decision. We will continue to do our jobs as we as a team think they should be done.

[Rowsdower]

I'm closing this thread. It's gotten way too heated in here on all sides and I don't see things getting much better. We've all made our opinions very well known at this point. While it's clear that the poll results and your voices echo a distinct sentiment, we have also been very clear that the move may not even be a permanent one. It has not been that long since the pic thread was moved and we still need to see a greater indication of its direct effect on community activity.

Your suggestions for improvements around the forum are still much appreciated, but keep that onto another thread in this section. Be specific on hows and whys in what you think could be improved and what you think the team can do about it. Most importantly, stay cool in your explanations and rationale. I do not want to see a repeat of what this thread turned into.