Perpetual Solar Flyer Challenge

[g00bd0g]

This challenge is for the aero geeks This challenge requires the Firespitter mod, FAR is recommended. You can use any of the common mods including FAR, procedural wings and fairings, etc... To complete this challenge you will need to build a very efficient aircraft with a bunch of batteries and solar panels to enable you to fly through the night, re-charge, and repeat this cycle for as long as you wish.

We can add additional sub-challenges like max payload, battery size restrictions, or even other planets/bodies if we want.

If someone wants to make a completion "badge" that would be cool...

The Challenge

Make an Electric Solar Aircraft capable of Perpetual Flight

The Craft

Must use electric motors from the Firespitter mod

Must use a Solar and Battery for energy

Must be capable of reasonable takeoff/landing from airstrips

No liquid fuels allowed, No RCS, No Jets, No rockets, No Ion drive, etc...

No user "modified" parts

No dev console or ridiculous parts clipping

The Flight

Takeoff

Fly through at least 1 night cycle and fully re-charge to demonstrate "perpetual flight" capability.

Landing is optional ;p

Judging

I'll maintain "stock" and FAR physics leaderboards

And possibly Manned and Un-Manned (Un-Kerbaled?)

Must provide sufficient photo/video proof (Video Preferred)

Craft files must be available for verification of performance upon request

I will maintain a leaderboard. Unlimited parts counts, tonnage, altitude, etc... I want to see what people will come up with. We'll refine the rules to "keep in the spirit" of the challenge if we need to.

Perpetual Flyers

MaverickSawyer

g00bd0g (initial post)

My Entry

Name: Perpetual Flyer

This plane has an L/D of 35:1 and 32085 units of energy. I used only about 20% of my total battery reserves and could have spent much more time and energy in the darkness. I was only able to time warp 2x without losing control so this required about 1.5 hours of actual piloting. I wasn't patient enough to fly back and land, though in truth, there's no need to, ever...

Mods: FAR and Firespitter

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited June 2, 2014 by g00bd0g

[Hakari]

can't use this can't use that, must use this, must use that.

Why don't you just upload your .craft and say everyone must use your design?

[Fengist]

I think you need some clarification here. You say you'll maintain 'stock' and far but I see you using pwings. So is this stock+fs or what?

[Captain Sierra]

I think you need some clarification here. You say you'll maintain 'stock' and far but I see you using pwings. So is this stock+fs or what?

Let's also not forget those are NFP batteries. I'd know them anywhere.

[g00bd0g]

I think you need some clarification here. You say you'll maintain 'stock' and far but I see you using pwings. So is this stock+fs or what?

Sorry, by "stock" I mean the physics model. You have the "stock" and FAR aero physics models to choose from. You can use parts from any popular mod. The only restrictions are there to keep it defined as a somewhat believable solar electric aircraft. FS is the only "required" mod because it has the electric motors necessary for this challenge. FAR is recommended for realism, and procedural wings because you can make super efficient wings. Otherwise it's a very open-ended challenge. As stated, this is a challenge for the aero nerds, so it's really more about aero design than component selection.

Edited January 20, 2014 by g00bd0g

[Hakari]

Sorry, by "stock" I mean the physics model. You have the "stock" and FAR aero physics models to choose from. You can use parts from just any mod. The only restrictions are there to keep it defined as a somewhat believable solar electric aircraft. Otherwise it's a very open-ended challenge. As stated, this is a challenge for the aero nerds, so it's really more about aero design than component selection.

what design? Just put enough solar panels + batteries and add wings? zero design choices other than appearance. There is just no challenge, and no design freedom.

[g00bd0g]

what design? Just put enough solar panels + batteries and add wings? zero design choices other than appearance. There is just no challenge, and no design freedom.

Dude, if you don't like it then don't compete. I found it an interesting challenge and thought others might as well. Making an efficient plane with enough panels and batteries to fly through the night is not easy. It has useful implications for exploring/mapping other planets/bodies without having to provide fuel. If you think it is so trivial an exercise, I'd like to see your entry

Edited January 20, 2014 by g00bd0g

[Hakari]

You mean you made one plane and want to turn it into as many challenges as you can?

[g00bd0g]

Hakari, OK, I get it, you think this challenge is stupid, you probably think all my other challenges are stupid, but some people seem to like them. The 2 planes (and challenges) to which I am assuming you are referring to are different. Each is optimized for it's role. Please refrain from posting in my thread any further if you don't have any actual constructive criticism (such as specific rule changes). You are welcome to start a challenge yourself if you don't like mine.

Edited January 20, 2014 by g00bd0g

[Hakari]

The ones people like, do not involve piloting a slow boring plane for 2 hours, in case you still haven't noticed.

They also involve some kind of scoring, and actual challenge.

[g00bd0g]

The ones people like, do not involve piloting a slow boring plane for 2 hours, in case you still haven't noticed.

They also involve some kind of scoring, and actual challenge.

Hakari, one of the most popular challenges in this forum is the "Kerbin Circumnavigation Challenge". I enjoyed it a lot and it inspired me to create some "solar powered challenges". Climbing to extreme altitudes and riding the verge of stall to store as much kinetic energy for the night flight is hardly "slow and boring" to me. Again, you might not see the point or enjoy it, but that does not mean you have to poop in my (or anyone else) sandbox.

Edited January 20, 2014 by g00bd0g

[JacobT11]

I'm on mobile at the moment, but I'll definitely give this challenge a shot when I get home. I've tried a solar plane before, but never really got anywhere. This sounds like a good challenge.

[Fengist]

Well, I would do this challenge but I don't really see the challenge as non-trivial as you make it seem. I've played with this idea and with 32k battery, it's not a huge problem. Since you've limited the source of power to strictly solar (and there's really only one solar panel that won't fly off an aircraft at speed) and only one source of thrust (ok, two electric props) then it's only a matter of gaining enough altitude during a daylight run so that the prop uses almost no power to maintain altitude and then packing on enough batteries to last through the night side. The rest is just aerodynamics and a f-ton of patience to do a circumnavigation flying that slow.

I understand what you're attempting to do here but with solar you're not going to get 'true' perpetual. You'll need to allow thermo-electrics for that. Even your plane isn't true perpetual. It can't fly at night perpetually. Plus, you've discounted other means of generating electricity like the Home nuclear (as huge as it is) and the Kethane generator (although they wouldn't be true perpetual either).

Doing a circumnavigation is easy enough, most everyone has done that, electric or otherwise. What I might suggest is some additional challenges inside this. For example:

Add points for the number of Kerbals in the plane beyond the pilot.

Add points for those Kerbals being INSIDE the aircraft (not lawn chairs).

Add points for achieving an altitude of 10k or 15k or higher (not terribly easy with a single electric prop).

Add points for using less than say... 16k battery power.

Deduct points for each thermoelectric used.

Deduct or add points for each solar panel per engine used.

Deduct or add (for creativity) points if another outside generator is used (i.e. Kethane).

Add or deduct points for each engine above 1 and by type (folding or not).

Add points for being pure stock+FS props only or make it a separate category.

Add points or titles for circumnavigations faster than XX:XX

I like the idea of your challenge but you just relegated it to obscurity by stifling creativity, one of the foundations of KSP.

Here's an example of what I mean. This is a Kethane/Solar hybrid with only 8k batteries, 1/4 of what you used. Not only will it circumnavigate (yes, I've tested it fully), it can even do a night launch and circumnavigate, something I dare say yours might struggle with.

[Hakari]

Well, I would do this challenge but I don't really see the challenge as non-trivial as you make it seem. I've played with this idea and with 32k battery, it's not a huge problem. Since you've limited the source of power to strictly solar (and there's really only one solar panel that won't fly off an aircraft at speed) and only one source of thrust (ok, two electric props) then it's only a matter of gaining enough altitude during a daylight run so that the prop uses almost no power to maintain altitude and then packing on enough batteries to last through the night side. The rest is just aerodynamics and a f-ton of patience to do a circumnavigation flying that slow.

here let me translate:

Your challenge is bad because it is stupid easy, all you need to do is sit through the boring as hell 2 hours.

[Fengist]

here let me translate:

Your challenge is bad because it is stupid easy, all you need to do is sit through the boring as hell 2 hours.

Well, you are correct. That's a reasonable translation. I however, was trying to be more polite and constructive and not take the American attitude of, 'if you don't like something, screw it up for everyone else.'

[g00bd0g]

here let me translate:

Your challenge is bad because it is stupid easy, all you need to do is sit through the boring as hell 2 hours.

Same could be said of any challenge. Please get your judgmental subjective opinions out of this thread, you have yet to contribute one constructive criticism.

[g00bd0g]

Well, you are correct. That's a reasonable translation. I however, was trying to be more polite and constructive and not take the American attitude of, 'if you don't like something, screw it up for everyone else.'

I appreciate your feedback and I may construct a points system as you have suggested. But I really want to maintain this as a solar electric plane challenge. Not nuclear, or kethane reactor or whatever. Your argument that my SOLAR POWERED PLANE isn't truly perpetual because it can't fly forever AT NIGHT is stating the obvious and ignoring the point of the contest. Specifically a SOLAR POWERED AIRCRAFT challenge. Additionally, as I previously stated, my plane only used approx 20% of it's energy throughout the night. It would have no problem taking off at night and completing a circumnavigation.

This is not the nuclear, kethane, antimatter or whatever powered challenge. If I am stifling your creativity or this to easy for you, why would you even bother responding? Seriously, either one of you could/should go start your own challenge "the right way". Go right on ahead, but please stop picking on my challenge, seriously, WTF?

[localSol]

removed doubled post

Edited January 21, 2014 by localSol
double posted?

[localSol]

This was hard, but I spent many hours testing a few different things to see what might work, and re-learning a bunch of ksp navigation stuff with FAR in the process. I'll post below an album of one I flew with for about 2 hours real time, making around 4 hours at 2x time compression. I had ot take breaks. No wonder airlines use two pilots! I was going to go for a high aspect ratio wing but by mostly using the FAR static analysis , it ended up becoming something like an airliner hybrid. In retrospect I'll not put wings low for long distance planes especially if they have elevators way back, it was very maneuverable but hard to trim for long distance flight with adjusted elevator travel and FAR DCA at 66. I think FAR DCA and assists were doing a great job considering that this particular design had the trillion battery banks causing a lot of flexing wobble that needed struts to compensate compared to solid fuselage. Cool idea about kethane and other sources of energy, that's probably a good practical solution for long distance flight power backup if kethane is so lightweight. I liked the idea of that generator but never actually knew what to do with it until that suggestion. But solar-only makes it a different challenge being reliant on the sunlight only. Especially like I found out flying east! I was not chasing the sun and hoped my batteries would last. They didn't, I got about 66-75% of the way until I got into daylight, and at such a slow average speed of about 148 m/s, part of the suspense was waiting and hoping the sun would rise while I seemed to float along!

I thought I would look for a landmass around 15% energy to land and wait for daylight since I knew I wouldn't make it at about 1:50 in. Of course I mistook the size of the continent under me earlier and then I couldn't see land anywhere on the horizon, until I barely had 3% battery. I coasted but came up just short of the coast. Toast. Ground distance covered 2,253.979 km. Crashed at ~ 136East, 4 South.

pictures : http://imgur.com/a/f3Qbx#0

Suggestions for badges/features to give myself (haha) :

Brine is Fine - crash into the ocean on the way

Charge it - Have more than 100k battery storage

Medium mass - Plane greater than 10 tons

Flying Tortoise - Average practical speed 150 m/s or less

FAR student - Disable all reaction wheels during the whole flight including takeoff and landing

Other possibilities :

Low Mass - Plane less than 5 tons

Ultrasprite - Plane less than 1.5 tons

Teh Win - Circumnavigate with only solar power (complete the challenge with all the OP rules)

Tiny Spinner - Use only the folding electric engines

Tater Power - Use at least one firespitter yellow Lemon-potato electric engine

Cool Electric - Use at least one FS1ENE Nose Mounted Electric Engine

Lithobraker - Crash or lose parts by colliding with the ground during an attempt to go all the way around.

Flying Research Center and Deli - Plane greater than 25 tons

How did you do your flight g00bd0g? What qualifies as one night cycle for this challenge if not circumnavigation back to KSC? I guess you didn't circumnavigate on the equator if you traveled a total of 800+km? How long does a kerbin night last at KSC or the equator? And/or how much does that vary over time?

Edited January 21, 2014 by localSol

[Aghanim]

Why no ion drive? Isn't using ion drive is much harder than FS electric prop? (solar glider)

[localSol]

Why no ion drive? Isn't using ion drive is much harder than FS electric prop? (solar glider)

I have doubts about it being possible to do much with FAR, but the advantage of ion engines is the high and flat isp. My plane could fly with TWR 0.21 (or maybe lower, I think VOID is not always accurate with these particular electric engines?) But I think the takeoff TWR would need to be higher. Big disadvantages from ion are low thrust and much higher energy consumption. I'll play with the kethoelectric generator and/or a nuclear generator but I doubt even that will help much. Who knows. Also not perpetual since xenon fuel is needed. The energy requirements for a ~0.114 TWR quick test I did with 13 normal ion engines are extremely high at more than 100 energy per second with a xenon-tank to ion engine ratio of 1:2. A nuclear generator from interstellar or near future might be too heavy and require even more engines but I'll give it a try today.

[Flixxbeatz]

Sup?

If I can only get the photovoltaic panels working then I will definitely try this one.

Not to mention that I have started developing a some sort of "Flying Battery" - an unmanned aircraft with batteries as fuselage, plus solar panels and RTGs

[g00bd0g]

Suggestions for badges/features to give myself (haha) :

Brine is Fine - crash into the ocean on the way

Charge it - Have more than 100k battery storage

Medium mass - Plane greater than 10 tons

Flying Tortoise - Average practical speed 150 m/s or less

FAR student - Disable all reaction wheels during the whole flight including takeoff and landing

Other possibilities :

Low Mass - Plane less than 5 tons

Ultrasprite - Plane less than 1.5 tons

Teh Win - Circumnavigate with only solar power (complete the challenge with all the OP rules)

Tiny Spinner - Use only the folding electric engines

Tater Power - Use at least one firespitter yellow Lemon-potato electric engine

Cool Electric - Use at least one FS1ENE Nose Mounted Electric Engine

Lithobraker - Crash or lose parts by colliding with the ground during an attempt to go all the way around.

Flying Research Center and Deli - Plane greater than 25 tons

How did you do your flight g00bd0g? What qualifies as one night cycle for this challenge if not circumnavigation back to KSC? I guess you didn't circumnavigate on the equator if you traveled a total of 800+km? How long does a kerbin night last at KSC or the equator? And/or how much does that vary over time?

Great suggestions. I didn't circumnavigate, but I flew Eastward through the night from sunset to sunrise, and fully re-charged demonstrating that I could repeat this cycle and circumnavigate or fly anywhere on the planet perpetually, if I had the patience ;p

Edited January 24, 2014 by g00bd0g

[MaverickSawyer]

Hrm... are NFPP capacitors allowed? If so, that's a real easy way to store oodles of power to top off your batteries in a hurry.

Also, NFPP and KW Rocketry batteries: allowed, or not?

[g00bd0g]

Hrm... are NFPP capacitors allowed? If so, that's a real easy way to store oodles of power to top off your batteries in a hurry.

Also, NFPP and KW Rocketry batteries: allowed, or not?

All allowed. Remember you have to fully re-charge, so a 1-time dump of the capacitors will not help you in the long-run. Though maybe a mix of bats and caps could prove beneficial? I'm not sure but I'd love to see someone try