KSP for College Apps?

[Aaronk214]

Hello all, I'm wanting to join the aerospace engineering program at Oklahoma State. I've heard its got the best aerospace program in Oklahoma and am looking for a way to spice up my application. What I had in my mind was a "Kuriosity" mission to Duna explaining in detail all maneuvers and the science behind it. I'm very unsure if this would be a good idea though considering its a game and its not 100% accurate with it's physics.

Any thoughts or other ideas would be appreciated!

[vexx32]

You could, certainly. I'd think you should probably mention that KSP is a simplified simulation and does not perform n-body physics calculations, though.

[jwenting]

were I a college professor or a hiring manager I'd not look kindly at a student/applicant wanting to base his/her internship on playing games.

[Aaronk214]

were I a college professor or a hiring manager I'd not look kindly at a student/applicant wanting to base his/her internship on playing games.

I understand that, and I'm not wanting to base it on games. I am just trying to find a way to show that I already have a simple understanding of orbital mechanics, I could possibly use the real solar system mod and just use it as graphics explaining a mars rover, or a Europa Lander

[MaverickSawyer]

If that's what you're interested in doing, try Orbiter Space Flight Simulator. ESA has used it to visualize the Soyuz launch and ascent process, and uses real Newtonian mechanics, but not relativistic physics. Not sure if they have a MSL mission yet, but they DO have several highly detailed addons of Soyuz, Apollo, and the Space Shuttle, as well as many fictional (but highly detailed) spacecraft such as the Antares capsule and Eridanus spaceplane.

[Aaronk214]

If that's what you're interested in doing, try Orbiter Space Flight Simulator. ESA has used it to visualize the Soyuz launch and ascent process, and uses real Newtonian mechanics, but not relativistic physics. Not sure if they have a MSL mission yet, but they DO have several highly detailed addons of Soyuz, Apollo, and the Space Shuttle, as well as many fictional (but highly detailed) spacecraft such as the Antares capsule and Eridanus spaceplane.

I have thought about that, but it's quite a curve learning how to use the Orbiter flight computers. I've attempted taking the Delta Glider to orbit, but when I reach my insertion burn I cannot find the button to show me the height of my Periapse . Lol maybe I'm just being whiny, I'm sure I could grasp it if I set my mind to it.

[G'th]

What this really depends on is who ends up reading/watching it, presuming you present this in as serious and professional a manner as possible. Some might take to it very well and give you kudos for it. Others, will refuse to look past the fact that its a game and judge you for it.

What would be better though, as has been suggested, is to use Orbiter. Not only does it present a more realistic simulation (and thus will be seen as closer to a scientific tool rather than a game) but it will also eliminate red flags that might pop up should a Kerbal be mentioned or if the audience notices how cartoony KSP can be.

[helaeon]

I'm saying this as someone who has read a lot of applications, performed a lot of interviews (and been interviewed), and has a 4 year science degree (biochemistry):

I say avoid any reference to video games or simulations in a recreational environment. There's a lot of prejudice about games in general and the perception of gamers. It sounds to most, especially people much older as "I'm good at Call of Duty so I'd be awesome in the Army". There are a lot of things that reality makes you deal with that Kerbal does not and those things are absolutely critical. You don't want to come off as a know-it-all or that you've been there done that, when really you have no idea.

I'd go off of the KerbalEDU idea and frame it as a teaching program to introduce middle or high schoolers to these basic concepts. Then your Kuriosity mission is about showing what is basically involved in this and what you expect the students to learn about basic spaceflight and how difficult the real Curiosity mission really was, even if simplified in the game. It's not about learning physics from Kerbal then, it's about using your current understanding to enrich others. Bonus points if you actually make your lesson mod for KerbalEDU that can be used in the release. Apps with "I did this project for real and people are using it or enjoying it right now so can you; take a look" is a huge huge plus if done well. Then your application is "I've done things with what I already know, if you teach me more I will make even better things in the future".

Use what you've learned so you're not starting at zero and can show a grasp of basic concepts, but that you have full understanding they are very simplified and very basic. The app is more about showing you have potential rather than that you already know everything. This is actually a big mistake made by a lot of students and new employees. You don't and shouldn't know everything when you first start and if you think you do or that you're supposed to you're going to be much harder to teach and train.

[AeolusRoc]

I would have to agree with helaeon on his point of view completely. He/She nailed it right on the head.

Even for myself, I am seriously considering going back to college for Aerospace Engineering. I am currently almost 30 and in the Information Technology field. I’ve always had a passion for wanting to build rockets and general space flight however; I’m finding that passion was repressed due to life’s challenges and negative individuals. Now that I am older and wiser, I’m finding I would really like to pursue this.

Best of luck, I really hope you get in

[jduchock]

tossing in my 2CP:

I used to have game development and testing on my resume, but took it off for precisely the reasons stated above. It is hard to take someone seriously when their resume has gaming on it as an achievement. I did keep it as a footnote for those that are diligent enough to read the entire 5 page resume, though i stripped the detail off.

i once had an interviewer say "...you don't play video games, do you?..." with a disconcerted look on his face...

[Luckless]

My first job working with an aerospace company was Because I played video games. I frequently played online games with a group of engineers and would join in discussions about projects with them. This eventually became an interview, and a job offer in the middle of a public match.

Be professional. The Original poster seems to be applying for an undergrad position, not a researcher. Make a list of the deficiencies in the simulation, and notes on what ways they will impact the results from a more precise sim or real life. Frankly knowing what is wrong with your simulation is something many researchers overlook and take for granted.

[rpayne88]

Its all about how you say it. Don't say "I play KSP for x hours a week." Say "As a hobby, I design hypothetical spacecraft and compute such vital statistics as TWR and dv, in addition to flight planning, in a (usually successful) attempt to send these spacecraft to various celestial bodies in a hypothetical star system loosely based on our solar system."

[Max Grant]

Old guy in IT here. I think for awhile yet, saying "I figured this out in a videogame" will still carry a stigma, but not for much longer. Older guys have those thoughts, and they are stupid. People play games, and it is in fact the way we learn and communicate with each other, and pretending otherwise is ridiculous. Hell, our entire governmental system is an absurd game, if you look at it.

So, for right now yea but as the people interviewing you age out at about my age (I'm 44, and I grew up playing videogames) I think that attitude will go away. People older than me still see videogames as a time-wasting distraction, but anyone who grew up in the post-computer world knows that it is actually more like the mental equivalent of pushups, for whatever thing the game is about.

In the 1980s, there was a lunar lander game you could play, I think it circulated on mainframes, and I remember it was very difficult and not very realistic. Today, though the game is still not 100% realistic, it is a billion miles ahead of what it used to be, and I believe that in the future, people will learn things like this precisely through playing videogames or modeled simulations. There is no substitute for putting your hands on a thing and doing it, but we sure can come close. It's just that realization hasn't yet percolated up through our population yet.

[jwenting]

It's not that "old guys are stupid", Max. Precisely that idea is what causes older people (meaning anyone over 35 and dropping to 30) to find it very hard to get a job in IT even if they have 20 years experience in the field.

Nobody says he should deny he likes to play the occasional game, that's just silly. But building your entire job application around the fact that you know a bit about orbital mechanics because you play a game about space flight is just as absurd.

[tetryds]

Just one thing regarding gamming hobby being badly seen.

They never think about the fact that if you stand behind a book all the day studying your decisions about the problems aren't concrete.

When you play a game, mostly a simulator game, you are limited on time to make your decisions, often about a situation that is not predicted on the paper.

I saw somewhere that it has been proven that people who play videogames as a hobby tend to be better at management and teamwork.

I don't think it's a good idea to use that for a college App, but I'm sure it SHOULD not.

What's the difference between showing a game in action executing manouvers that you explain with details and a slideshow?

Well, anyone can copypaste into a slideshow, but you cannot execute a manouver if you don't know exactly how to do it.

And i completelly agree with Max Grant.

[Greenspan]

I would avoid putting it on your application especially since it is for undergrad they are more interested in well rounded people who work hard, have a drive to succeed, and have diverse experiences. They might look at it as "Look how much time/effort this guy wasted on a game" even though we all know that's wrong. I think it might be possible to carefully word it in a way that it could work, but it would be challenging. If you do I'd suggest you take your app to a college counselor or science teacher and get their feedback, they will be very similar to the people reviewing your application.

As far as the stigma of videogames, I lived through playing gobs of games in high school and college so I know whats up. Yes, you can learn a lot from playing video games but at the same time if you spent the same amount of time studying you'd be Einstein. There's a difference between playing in KSP and grinding through Fundamentals of Astrodynamics.

[tetryds]

I would avoid putting it on your application especially since it is for undergrad they are more interested in well rounded people who work hard, have a drive to succeed, and have diverse experiences. They might look at it as "Look how much time/effort this guy wasted on a game" even though we all know that's wrong. I think it might be possible to carefully word it in a way that it could work, but it would be challenging. If you do I'd suggest you take your app to a college counselor or science teacher and get their feedback, they will be very similar to the people reviewing your application.

As far as the stigma of videogames, I lived through playing gobs of games in high school and college so I know whats up. Yes, you can learn a lot from playing video games but at the same time if you spent the same amount of time studying you'd be Einstein. There's a difference between playing in KSP and grinding through Fundamentals of Astrodynamics.

I disagree.

I study Electrical Engineering, and have friends who study a LOT.

While I'm the guy who play videogames but somehow keep up with the matters.

They usually ask me for help with their projects when they don't know what to do anymore.

[Oss Spy]

Don't call it a video game. Call it a sandbox simulator where you are able to design your own spacecraft and use your designs to reach other bodies, where the mechanics within the game are based on real-life orbital mechanics. Though not perfect, is an accessible way for a person to demonstrate and practice their interest in a complex subject. Explain that the game does not use differential equations (because you're either in the SOI of a body or not) but it does not detract from the lessons you've learned. Be sure that you can also demonstrate your knowledge that you've gained; a bunch of flowery words mean nothing when there's no substance to hold it up.

[ConstantinP234]

You have a basic understanding of orbital mechanics. That is important and good, since it shows that you are interested in the subject, are able to understand concepts of that subject and they will not have to start at zero when teaching you. THAT is the part of it which is important to them and increases your chances. Having acquired that knowledge through simulations of any kind (unless they were official NASA-simulations at a special program for specifically talented high school students) will NOT make a positive difference. Having spent your free time on extensive simulations could mean you have a distorted view of the subject and its contents, maybe even an approach to it that will hinder you in learning it the way it is taught in class. It could also mean that you have wrong expectations of a career in the field and will ultimatively fail because you took the class for the wrong reasons. On top of that comes all the stuff people said before me about videogames.

It's a lot better to say you learned all that stuff from a book (preferably even one of a professor who is teaching there) because you loved the subject so much...don't over-do it and don't lie, but if you are interested in the subject one can assume you have also read books about it, yes?

So what can you use KSP for? One great option would be to organize your own class/activity at your school where you teach others about space using KSP EDU. You also might be able to get a nice screenshot with a lander on the mun, Kerbin in the background and a flag with the logo of the college on it at the end of your application if it fits thematically (as sort of a creative thing on your app that makes it stick out). Other than that though, leave it out. A spaceflight-college is not specifically looking for students who are interested in spaceflight, it's safe to assume everyone there is Other qualities such as a desire and ability to learn a lot, being able to present yourself, speaking in public and leading as well as social skills and good grades are what makes the difference.

[Aaronk214]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback!! I most definitely do not wanna come across as a know-it-all and didn't plan on focusing the entire app on it. I meant to write a paper about it and put it among other papers and projects from the past. I have given Orbiter serious thought, but am not too keen on it. The apps are due very soon and I do not want to focus all my time on a video game as I have a very big project I'm working on for my class at the local technology center. I perhaps will instead write an essay describing what inspired me to want to work with spacecraft, and maybe throw in a bit about KSP and Orbiter along the way. Once again thanks for the feedback!

[Aaronk214]

I'm saying this as someone who has read a lot of applications, performed a lot of interviews (and been interviewed), and has a 4 year science degree (biochemistry):

I was hoping to have feedback with someone with experience like yours! Thanks for the great feedback! I most certainly don't want to come across as unteachable. Also, I really like the idea of KerbalEDU and will check into it. I understand that KSP is just a game, and not a great representation of life, so I planned on keeping any essay I did on it and putting it in a portfolio.