Challenged! The Arkingthaad Nadir.

[Whackjob]

Ack. Slept all afternoon. That's what weird shifts at work does to ya. Well, I need to wake up via delicious coffee, get a little housework done before it's too late to make too much noise, and then it's back to the grindstone. I want the main tower lander itself complete by morning. And I want to do a shakedown run until out-of-fuel so I can see how much booster I will need.

[User Unrelated]

Whackjob, you're a bad influence on me.

I was tired this morning, and thought "...well, Whackjob likes coffee, so......."

and now I think I am addicted to the stuff. I have no idea how I've gone 21 years without having tasted the delicious morningtime elixir.

Sugar is for the weak

[Whackjob]

Here's a good one for later in the afternoon, then. Make the darkest coffee you can. Use a roast like Arabica, or something nice like a good Kona coffee. Make it dark, make it black, make it strong. Then instead of cream or sugar, put in a half-scoop of french vanilla iced cream. Don't mix it, don't stir it, just sip it as it melts. I tell ya, it's like creamer *happening*.

[Whackjob]

Well, I went back to building, and I found something. Something bad.

The four core columns on the outside. I built one, then reattached it four times using the symmetry tool. The idea being, I think, to make the strutting work go four times faster. I noted last night that not all the struts done on the first column had replicated out to the other three during the copy over. And now, I see why.

There's a bug that I sometimes hit with my more massive creations. The part will be there, and it'll function on the pad, but it's completely ghosted in the VAB. I can see the part, but I can no longer interact with it. Not to pick it up and move it, or attach parts to it, or modify it in any way. Each of the three new columns has ghosted on me. This build is ruined.

But it's just a few hours setback. Instead of doing all the work first on the Z dimension and then building out on X and Y, I think this time around will I do it inversely.

Well, the Arkingthaad Nadir project begins again. We'll just call this a learning experience / false start.

#EDIT: Think I'll start out with five columns and use what I learn here to go for the nine column build. Here you can see I'm going laterally first, and then building down:

Grudgingly, I have to admit there's some advantages to doing it this way.

#EDIT2: I threw a core on, and put four docking clamps on the center column only. Then launched. Was waiting to see what happened when physics kicks in. Is my method sufficient for bearing that weight?

Turns out yes. Physics kicks in, the outer four tank sets sag, but nothing snaps and everything stays put. I'm satisfied.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Whackjob

[Jodo42]

If you do manage to build this thing, send me a copy of the craft file. I want to see what it can do.

Crash your computer. Kill all your Kerbals. Meet the Kraken head on, eat it, and gain its powers.

That's what it'll do.

[Whackjob]

I think I'm going about this the right way, but at the wrong quantity. The five columns instead of nine... truth be told, I'm permitting myself to be lazy. Redoing it. I will not cheap out on this.

Side note... I did fly her to see how well the trusswork did. Result:

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The structural reinforcement does need work. The control? Excellent. I was able to put her on an abbreviated gravity turn without issue. I think the full Nadir will be fine.

#EDIT: Ok, I've come to the conclusion that I'm treading on new ground here. There are issues I've never had before, and some of these I am unequipped to handle. So far. So, I'm going to need to do SCIENCE. I will begin testing out various permutations of overall structural assembly. I need something that will not only hold up something that heavy and that tall, but also keep it rigid enough to where I can land it and fly it. This is going to be difficult.

Not impossible. I think. Just a matter of time and science.

#EDIT2: I believe I've hit upon a solution!! As follows:

Some of you know the trick where you can move the camera inside an above tank, and put in eight struts linking the lower tank to the upper tank, and all nicely concealed out of view. This leads to very strong connections. But you can only do so on a polar axis. If you first build out radially, then go polar, the symmetry tool breaks out a miniKraken and then it doesn't work. But using this method above, I move from eight to twelve strut connections from lower tank assembly to upper. In addition, it gives me an excuse to stash kethane everywhere! This is may very well solve two issues at once!

Edited February 5, 2014 by Whackjob

[Whackjob]

I am annoyed.

I've gotten this far, except four tanks down, instead of two:

I've run into a symmetry issue where struts aren't bolting on right. And if I go to the sections where they don't connect, and move them, then they don't connect on other places they were otherwise fine. Long and short of it, the more I build it, the more it unbuilds itself.

If this is going to work, I have to figure out a way of doing it with little or no struts. ...I could probably do with docking points, but I don't think a ship's own docking ports will link with itself.

I have to take a break. Figure out a way around this issue.

If there is one. I'm calling on the community, here. Anyone know of any way of fixing the broken-symmetry issue?

[Tiakatt]

I've also encountered that symmetry issue with struts. No idea what causes it or how to make it stop doing that. It's annoying enough on small crafts, I can't imagine how hair-pullingly enraging it must be when it crops up on a project of that size

If this is going to work, I have to figure out a way of doing it with little or no struts. ...I could probably do with docking points, but I don't think a ship's own docking ports will link with itself.

I think that might work. Not sure how helpful this is to you (I may very well be misunderstanding what you mean), but I built this with a preconnected dock in VAB - it bounces a little on loading at the launch site, but the connection holds:

This only has the one command pod. The engine, despite having no command pod of its own if not docked fires on the command of the main "ship", so this behaves as a single ship.

I don't have a shot of it, but I did drop and explode that tank by separating the connection as well.

Docking connections built in VAB should work (okay, unless you're me and occasionally build them backward). Unless, again, I'm just derping and misunderstanding you, which is always a possibility

[vexx32]

I am annoyed.

I've gotten this far, except four tanks down, instead of two:

http://i.imgur.com/YBE6Bt8.png

I've run into a symmetry issue where struts aren't bolting on right. And if I go to the sections where they don't connect, and move them, then they don't connect on other places they were otherwise fine. Long and short of it, the more I build it, the more it unbuilds itself.

If this is going to work, I have to figure out a way of doing it with little or no struts. ...I could probably do with docking points, but I don't think a ship's own docking ports will link with itself.

I have to take a break. Figure out a way around this issue.

If there is one. I'm calling on the community, here. Anyone know of any way of fixing the broken-symmetry issue?

The only way I've found to fix that kind of issue is to completely rebuild the broken segment, but you have to find a different way to build it that won't trigger the bug. It'll only get more and more common as you stretch the editor's limits, too.

As to using docking ports, as long as they line up, they will connect -- just make sure you put the docking ports on either side of the connection point. The connection between the ports won't happen till the ship is loaded.

[Whackjob]

Well, I'll need the ports to form a ring. Specifically, I'm not putting one docking port on and then another. I know that works fine. Think of the docking ports closing a U. This I don't think will work. As both are part of the same craft, and they're not put together from the start, would they link? I suspect not.

[vexx32]

Yep, they will. They didn't in the initial docking update, but one of the two updates after that introduced circular connections.

It should be noted, though, that fuel cannot flow through connections made that way.

[Whackjob]

Ok, Vexx. I didn't think it did, but let's see. Time for some SCIENCE!

The break in the U for the parts tree is right in front center there. After physics kicked in, they did move around a bit, but did in fact lock! Engines there because I wanted to try to force them apart. Failed.

More thrust! Finally got them to shear with mainsails.

So now we know for a fact that works. Now the important question... Which is better, a big senior port, or multiple smaller ones? More science is called for!

[Whackjob]

Holy CRAP, Vexx! I think you've really got something here! Testing ensues:

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Note that I'm building off the senior ports, and simply have four more radially attached via side rotated medium trusses. And just those alone are enough to support the freehanging weight of FOUR rockomax 64 tanks! Next I test flex. With a mainsail engine attached to the bottom. And you can see what it took to get them to undock! Incredible.

Next set of testing: Compression.

Ok, I'm convinced. Three orange tanks worth of weight bearing down, and she holds very rigid. Not sure how it'll do with tons of these linked up, but, eh. Finding out will be part of the fun!

#EDIT AGAIN: Wow. What can I say? Here's a test run of something I slapped together in maybe two minutes:

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The central column doesn't have docking ports, and the Arkingthaad Nadir will. But... bracing it are docking ports. Each tank is connected radially to the tank above and below it, and through the docking port braces along the outside, also the the tanks above and below those. This diffuses the force each tank receives a stupid amount.

As you can see, it wiggled a lot, but that's no issue. I ran from launch to burnout with no trouble. And that rocket was one full vab high.

Even crazier... if I give each each "segment" a control core, a little RCS and some nozzles, I can potentially launch and link up multiple Arkingthaad Nadirs.

The possibilities now stagger me. The part count for this behemoth will be low in comparison to my standard fare. And it will be sodding enormous.

I begin now.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Whackjob

[Merinsan]

Whackjob, you're a bad influence on me.

I was tired this morning, and thought "...well, Whackjob likes coffee, so......."

and now I think I am addicted to the stuff. I have no idea how I've gone 21 years without having tasted the delicious morningtime elixir.

Sugar is for the weak

What do you mean "morningtime elixir"? It's a beverage for any time of the day! Right now I am drinking it, admitted in a liquor form, but it's 10:40pm, and I may have a hot coffee later.

And on topic, seeing Whackjob building these monstrosities always inspires me to attempt my own...for about a day. Then my rational mind takes over and convinces me that it's crazy and I go back to building normal rockets.

[Scotius]

Devs, we need a bigger VAB. How big? That depends on how creative Whackjob feels

[djnattyd]

And to think, I get giddy if I manage to Launchpad (as in, it loads outside) a 300 part rocket without it falling apart... or KSP crashing... or my pc bursting into flames...

[Whackjob]

Devs, we need a bigger VAB. How big? That depends on how creative Whackjob feels

Five times larger, with a free roaming camera, instead of one locked on a central axis.

[Starwhip]

I can't see the images!!! NNNNOOOOOOOOO!!!

But once they implement (or if they implement) structural damage to the buildings... what are you going to do if they, oh, I don't know, make the buildings COME OUT OF THE GROUND???

Time for planning....

I believe, based on the previous post content (without the images) that if I ever went and got one of your crafts, went to the VAB, and pressed "launch", that my computer's monitor would shoot columns of fire, the processor would be reduced to molten slag, and then the entire unit would collapse upon itself and create a black hole which would destroy the universe.

Just saying...

EDIT:

Whoah.... if you follow the link about the Coffee Thread in Whackjob's signature... He thought that rocket was insane....

Edited February 5, 2014 by Starwhip

[Knobby]

I'm not sure what your feelings about mods are, but here's one that might help you:

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/kerbal-joint-reinforcement/

Basically what this does is it makes joints between stuff (like tanks) less wobbly, so you need less struts etc to make it rigid.

Anyway, i'm following this to just to see how far you can push KSP

[Starwhip]

I'm not sure what your feelings about mods are, but here's one that might help you:

http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/kerbal-joint-reinforcement/

Basically what this does is it makes joints between stuff (like tanks) less wobbly, so you need less struts etc to make it rigid.

Anyway, i'm following this to just to see how far you can push KSP

The whole point of Whackjob's things is to see just what you can do, not to actually do anything useful.

[Moar Boosters]

I am annoyed.

I've gotten this far, except four tanks down, instead of two:

http://i.imgur.com/YBE6Bt8.png

I've run into a symmetry issue where struts aren't bolting on right. And if I go to the sections where they don't connect, and move them, then they don't connect on other places they were otherwise fine. Long and short of it, the more I build it, the more it unbuilds itself.

If this is going to work, I have to figure out a way of doing it with little or no struts. ...I could probably do with docking points, but I don't think a ship's own docking ports will link with itself.

I have to take a break. Figure out a way around this issue.

If there is one. I'm calling on the community, here. Anyone know of any way of fixing the broken-symmetry issue?

I'm all too familiar with this bug. It's why my creations always max out at around 2500 parts. Sometimes I encounter it with as little as 1700. I'd be building my apollo style crafts much bigger than I currently do, but it's always technical problems with the game engine that limit me.

I've found it occurs most often if I ever use the ctrl-v function to undo a mistake. Regular use of the symmetry too also causes it. You know what my big rockets look like: I often build a central core, built 1 of the strap-on sections and then the other 5 or 7 come from symmetry.

It's strange though because the bug is often VAB only. If I load a vehicle which has "lost" lots of struts through this bug, sometimes they still appear when I load the vehicle to the launch pad.

I think it's something to do with the difference between the way the VAB and the main engine handle the craft files. In the VAB it's constantly auto-saving the ship so you can revert any changes with ctrl-V. I suspect the resources used for this feature are the difference.

Speaking of 10,000 part crafts. I did accidentally create one. Sort of. I was building a regular rocket, and somehow managed to accidentally select the whole thing and reproduce it in 6x symmetry, boosting it to over 12,000 parts. It make my computer freeze trying to load the vehicle, and when I restarted the game the craft file wouldn't load. It froze my pc every time. I eventually deleted it because it wasn't a flyable rocket, it was 6 rockets clipped together...... but just having the file in the folder would cause the pc to hang for a minute or two when I brought up the list of ships to load.

[vexx32]

It's always good to know just where your limits are. That's why Whackjob is so helpful.

I see you've taken the docking ports in stride... Sheesh. Never actually stress tested them connections myself. Good sciencing, indeed. I feel like it's almost inevitable that we'll someday see you attempting to build a giant ring around Kerbin... out of the Arkingthaad modules you'll probably be buildi-- no. Don't do that. Nope. Nope. Nope. I don't think my brain could handle it.

[Madrias]

Vexx, now I wanna see Whackjob try to put a ring of, well, anything around Kerbin. Other than Debris cause that's easy.

[Deadpangod3]

Vexx, now I wanna see Whackjob try to put a ring of, well, anything around Kerbin. Other than Debris cause that's easy.

I'm afraid to imagine what a whackjovian debris maker could do...

[Whackjob]

Vexx, now I wanna see Whackjob try to put a ring of, well, anything around Kerbin. Other than Debris cause that's easy.

I checked that particular box pretty early in my Kerbish career.

And if you meant one circumventing Kerbin, then I have to say it isn't possible. When you have a craft about 2.2km long, the Kraken gets an express pass to everywhere at once.

I'm afraid to imagine what a whackjovian debris maker could do...