Stock MkII?

[Shna_na]

So I've been looking at some mods and I want to be able to make bases on other planets. The issue is that docking ports are not overly useful for this kind of application, as sacrifices have to be made for size, shape, aesthetics, and location. I was wondering what mods are balanced in accordance to stock parts that would allow me to do this. Kerbal Attachment System is definitely an option, but I haven't used it since its very first release so I don't know what changes have been made, what new parts have been added, or even if it's a balanced mod. Is it like an extension to the stock game that allows more versatility or is it in any way unbalanced?

I already have Kerbal Engineer and Kerbal Alarm Clock, as these are basically just tools that do stuff that an employee of the Kerbal Space Program could be asked to do (after all, a space program can't be run by just one man and some pilots).

The reason I post this in the Discussion page is because I would like a discussion about this and balanced mods in general. This would be helpful to the many players that are in my position.

[InterCity]

An example of a well balanced mod is KW Rocketry. It may not solve your base problems, so it's a bit off-topic, but it allowed me to make a ship capable of reaching Jool and returning back to LKO about 3 times.

I use Kerbal Attachment system too, but mostly only for fuel transfer. And Kethane. And containers. And struts. And anchors. And...

Well, maybe i use it quite a lot actually..

[Red Iron Crown]

What is it you want docking ports to do that they don't?

[Shna_na]

An example of a well balanced mod is KW Rocketry. It may not solve your base problems, so it's a bit off-topic, but it allowed me to make a ship capable of reaching Jool and returning back to LKO about 3 times.

I use Kerbal Attachment system too, but mostly only for fuel transfer. And Kethane. And containers. And struts. And anchors. And...

Well, maybe i use it quite a lot actually..

So, you use KAS a lot... Would you say that it's fine to use in career mode for base construction and wouldn't be overpowered in any way? Also, the KW Rocketry part was not off-topic - don't worry! As I said in the original post:

...The reason I post this in the Discussion page is because I would like a discussion about this and balanced mods in general. This would be helpful to the many players that are in my position.

What is it you want docking ports to do that they don't?

I'll gladly answer your question, Mr. Crown:

• With docking ports, some parts of the base will need to be designed around the docking port to keep consistency, which sacrifices efficiency, aesthetics, and function.
  
• Docking ports were not designed for ground-use. being as little as 0.25m out of line with another section of the base can ruin the entire mission.
  
• Using a docking port means bringing two crafts together when they are already on the ground. This needs either wheels (sacrificing aesthetics) or a tug (sacrificing time and all-important frame-rate).
  

[Javster]

KAS allows some small parts to be moved around on EVA, as well as other things.

[Shna_na]

KAS allows some small parts to be moved around on EVA, as well as other things.

As I have seen with Scott Manley. The Spaceport post mentions "•Bases/vessels interconnections (pipes)", I assume that this is a tool that connects multiple crafts so that they act as one, yes?

[The Destroyer]

KAS, currently

-has fuel lines

"docking" lines

Achors,

Grapples,

It's very fun.

How is it OP? You must have a kerbal to grab and attach stuff, unless it's a grapple. It even comes with KAS "Struts" that you can place on EVA! It also has containers to store small parts- Build a satalite in orbit! Definitley not "overpowered" it's good mod to use

Other good ones that I use are KW, and AEIS. Aeis is definitley good for large probes, and looks pretty good. KW, has massive parts to build massive things. They're balenced in the tech tree too, just like AEIS and KAS.

@above Yep, use the lines on "docking" mode to connect them together. But it won't be sturdy, it's a line, not a docking port. Docking ports are strong, the KAS lines are like ropes. So good for pulling and connecting ground bases, but not for interplanetary multi-part ships. Unless you reel in the line so its in its "fixed" postion, then it'll be stronger.

[Shna_na]

KAS, currently

-has fuel lines

"docking" lines

Achors,

Grapples,

It's very fun.

How is it OP? You must have a kerbal to grab and attach stuff, unless it's a grapple. It even comes with KAS "Struts" that you can place on EVA! It also has containers to store small parts- Build a satalite in orbit! Definitley not "overpowered" it's good mod to use

Other good ones that I use are KW, and AEIS. Aeis is definitley good for large probes, and looks pretty good. KW, has massive parts to build massive things. They're balenced in the tech tree too, just like AEIS and KAS.

@above Yep, use the lines on "docking" mode to connect them together. But it won't be sturdy, it's a line, not a docking port. Docking ports are strong, the KAS lines are like ropes. So good for pulling and connecting ground bases, but not for interplanetary multi-part ships. Unless you reel in the line so its in its "fixed" postion, then it'll be stronger.

Great, thanks for such a quick response (applies to all), I'll get it done. If you want to carry on talking about other useful balanced mods on this thread, then please do - I encourage it.

Thanks!

[The Destroyer]

Okay then!

FASA is pretty good, balenced, realistic, and has AMAZING launch towers! Screw the old clamps!

Hotrockets and CoolRockets make pretty neat graphic changes.

Novapunch... hmm, haven't used it in awhile, but it's more gameplay orientated than balenced, so I half-reccomend it.

Helldrivers shuttle. Balenced, good tech tree intergration, and awesome! As well as Tyberdyne shuttles, they're pretty good, just not as beautiful as the mini shuttle.

Kerbal joint re-inforcements is good, it makes rockets wobble less, more "Realistic", plus less lag from struts or other supports.

I also recommend Realchute. Great mod, more "realistic" parachutes, less SUDDEN 20 G DEPLOYMENT, and the models are a beauty. Comes with combo chutes!

Interstellar mod may look OP, but it takes lots of research- I mean in the thousands of science to unlock it. It's still hard to find good places for anti-matter, since it dosen't refuel in solar orbit. Plus, you still have to burn down. It's a realistic end-game mod.

Kethane is good if you want big bases for refuling. I never got into it becasue I like to build it all in one launch, but you may like it.

Edited February 5, 2014 by The Destroyer

[spyker92]

With the exception of how the combo chutes are done, I could definitely see real chutes being added to KSP. Overall theyre very well balanced. And the no SNAP MY ROCKET IN HALF 20G PARACHUTE MAN is a nice touch.

I could see elements of KAS being added as well. Running around with gravoli detector on your back is great. Very kerbal-ly.

[Rickenbacker]

You forgot an option: KAS is frakking awesome, and most of it should be incorporated into the core game!

[Shna_na]

Thanks for all the mod suggestions, It's tempting me to dare to come out of my stock shell and branch out into the balanced modding world . It looks like a resounding yes in terms of getting KAS, so I will do so tomorrow if the vote is still above 80%. I may even download some of the other suggested mods, keeps the suggestions flowing!

Sidenote: This is why I love the KSP community - it is without a doubt the best to ever exist and is probably the nicest corner of the internet. The devs are fantastic too, never seen better. They have everything the big companies* don't: respect for their fans, a huge role in their community, and astonishing support for said community.

*Not gonna name names, too many companies to mention

[3_bit]

KAS really isn't OP in my opinion. It's a nice addition to the game, is pretty stable, and makes reusable craft easier. for example, you could have a 2-stage launcher to orbit from a given planet, but in-between the stages are docking ports. You could land a launch tower that allows reassembly of the vehicle, as well as rovers to go out and pick up the landed 1st stage.

[3_bit]

Thanks for all the mod suggestions, It's tempting me to dare to come out of my stock shell and branch out into the balanced modding world . It looks like a resounding yes in terms of getting KAS, so I will do so tomorrow if the vote is still above 80%. I may even download some of the other suggested mods, keeps the suggestions flowing!

Sidenote: This is why I love the KSP community - it is without a doubt the best to ever exist and is probably the nicest corner of the internet. The devs are fantastic too, never seen better. They have everything the big companies* don't: respect for their fans, a huge role in their community, and astonishing support for said community.

*Not gonna name names, too many companies to mention

For a long time I didn't mod any of my clients (I used to mod TF2, Minecraft, etc...) but then I came back to modding. It's awesome because now there are a lot of cool new parts in the mods I use.

[Captain Sierra]

Okay, I personally don't use KAS for bases. 1) it's too much editor clutter, and 2) it's not stockalike enough for me to use it.

Now, this is where I become different. I personally don't believe a bunch of buildings connected by KAS is a true base. I use the Temstar Method. They must be connected by docking ports. Now, I also tend to find that I personally get LOWER overall part counts when I specialize my modules rather than try to make less do-everything modules.

So would KAS work? absolutely. Is KAS the only way? Not at all.

On the topic of balanced mods, RLA stockalike. Great pack. It adds several 0.625m engines and really shows just how OP the 48-7S really is.

[InterCity]

@Shna_na: I think that KAS is balanced well. There is nothing overpowered about it in my opinion. For me, the only OP mods are those with 3000 ISP and 1000 power engines or such.

[Landge]

I've been playing mod free for over a year of KSP. I've visited every planet and moon, setup bases on Mun, Duna and Laythe several times. The last 2 releases I have played strictly career mode. Chatterer and MapSat were the only mods I've used prior to 0.23. Once I've established a base, explore the planet, there isn't much left to do other than sending out new addition, rotate the crew, bringing the old crew home. I don't know if or when resources will make an appearance in the stock game.

I spent countless hours field testing docking ports of all my craft getting them perfectly aligned prior to 0.22. Hours per mission sending each ship to Mun only to find out that gravity and terrain is throwing the alignment off and Squad changed the suspension system! AAAUUUUUUGGGGHHHH!!! So I spend even more hours realigning docking ports for 0.22/0.23 still using stock.

Last month I downloaded Kethane Pack in a fresh career mode. THIS is what was missing to bring life back into KSP! Parts are logically spaced in the tech tree and do not feel overpowered at all. It takes A WHOLE LOT of electricity to operate the drills and converters. You have to send sats to scan terrain to reveal deposits. I just wish there was a way scanning could be accomplished simultaneously on different planets instead of only the current active sat. This is a problem with MapSat and SatScan too. There should be a way for the sats to reveal the surface over time and allow you to move on to other missions and come back later to see the results. Instead it leaves huge gaps in the scans because you didn't babysit them every second. I hope that gets fixed.

Now I have new mining rigs to extract and process Kethane and deliver fuel to orbiting craft. Fuel trucks to transport and refuel landing craft that before would be scrapped once empty because there was no way to refuel the fuel trucks. The BIGGEST headache is getting stock docking ports to link on land.

Yesterday I downloaded KAS, refitted my fuel truck with a vertical winch on the boom, front and rear horizontal winches, 4 large containers, a few minutes figuring what to put in them. There's a 40 and 80 weight limit depending on the container size. All KAS parts (there's not a lot) are placed logically in the science tree. All my tech is unlocked already so it's just a matter of revisiting past tech to find KAS parts and unlock those. Hands down Kerbal Attachment System is a must have mod for any base builders out there! I can't stress how stress free it is to be able to walk up to a container, grab a radial attachment port, walkover to a winch and drag the line over to another ship, attach the port and plug in the line, switch to the truck or ship and alt-right click both craft and transfer fuel, unplug and reel in the line. It's a gem of a mod!

Edited February 7, 2014 by Landge

[Madrias]

I consider KAS well balanced in my opinion.

Didn't select an option because my choice would inevitably be "Install ALL the modz!" because I believe that unless it's a purely obvious cheat mod (like engines that don't consume fuel or produce insane amounts of thrust, or a battery that weighs 0.001 and stores 2 million EC), it's likely balanced.

My basic recommendations? KAS, B9 Aerospace, Hooligan Labs Airships, Firespitter, Lack Luster Labs, and maybe the Rubber Band Industries Caterpillar Tracks.

In order as to Why: KAS allows a lot of interesting interaction between Kerbals and ships, and gives a big reason to using Kerbals in EVA. B9 Aerospace because of awesome Sci-Fi inspired plane/rocket/shuttle parts. Hooligan Labs Airships because Airships, enough said. Firespitter because sometimes it's fun to step back, stop shooting craters into the Mun, and fly a propeller plane around Kerbin. Or land a biplane on the Mun. Lack Luster Labs for some Sci-Fi inspired non-round parts that look Awesome and work well. And the Caterpillar Tracks for Heavy Duty Rovers, or other interesting methods of abuse, like heavy duty landing gear.

I guess I'm just strange like that.

[Demon_82]

KAS is great for bases, but to make them realistic, that bases can't rely on everything connected through KAS. I mean, every habitable part of your ground base should be reachable from the inside, through some part at least as big as a clampotron, to let Kerbals go there without using space suits. You can't expect the usage of a space suit and a airlock for going from kitchen to bedroom, you can expect the suage of that for going from the main habitation zone to a temporary supplies shipment, a crew exchange ship... at least is how I view it in my realistic style. A power generating module can be linked by KAS, as a fuel tank or a shuttle, but not the parts commonly crewed.

[SkyHook]

Most of the popular mods are balanced. For bases I use LLL pretty much exclusively. LLL is the only mod pack that looks like it belongs on a planetary surface. With most other mods, it just looks like a space station...but on the ground. KAS is a great mod though, use it!

EDIT: The Lazor mod has an experimental feature that allows you to weld parts together without docking ports. I am not sure if it has been updated for 0.23. I can confirmt that it DOES work, and can save at least two parts per connection. It will be tricky moving things into place, however.

Edited February 7, 2014 by SkyHook

[Shna_na]

After carefully considering the arguments given and suggestions, I installed KAS!

The story goes: I was thinking about making a base on the Mun, as I hadn't retrieved all that much science from it. I was pondering whether or not to install KAS first, so I launched a test lander with Jebediah on-board while I weighed up the argument. This was a craft that I'd used over and over, in total I've gained ~5000 science with that craft alone, so I knew it would work. I landed in Mun's Polar Crater, which took more Delta V due to the need for a polar orbit. There wasn't enough left to even reach orbit. I hadn't equipped it with a docking port, so I couldn't recover much of the precious science that was on-board.

That's when I decided to install KAS. Yes, I could get Jebediah to grab all the experiments and wait for rescue, but I decided there and then that this mod would be useful, and trying out whether or not it's overpowered would do no harm. I am now constructing a craft involving KAS. I'll get back to you when I have a Minmus base!

Edit: So far so balanced! I'm pleased with it, not gonna lie. Only problem is that it makes the game take eons to load. It's laid out well in the tech tree, too, I must add.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Shna_na
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