Discuss: MJ makes KSP more acceptable to Junior player. Hence, create more QUESTIONS.

[3Dave]

I may be late to the party. but to my knowledge only the very earliest real space craft were handled with manual controls. and the launch stage has always been automated, due to the fact that things are happening so fast and have to be so precice that no human could fly a rocket manually. IMO, not having atleast ascent autopilot in the stock game is realism breaking for the sake of making something needlessly complicated. spacecraft are some of the most advanced machines ever built. i dont understand why people feel its cheating to have computer controls when ALL real spacecraft have computer controls.

Mechjeb already has limitations that mean you need to do many things manually if you have thin fuel margins. orbital rendezvous for instance. almost every time, MJ wants to burn 300 or so delta v to establish a higher orbit to let the target catch up before setting up the transfer node. flying this yourself can save you that 300 dV. you also cant trust the autowarp, especially for interplanetary transfers. ive had MJ crash more rockets into duna due to failing to come out of warp on time than i care to mention. also, on the topic of interplanetary transfers. MJ wastes more dV on those by demanding that you match planes perfectly before setting the transfer node. you can get a good plain by making small adjustments in mid transet that you will have to make anyway, instead of matching plains from the start.

long story short: MJ makes the game closer to reality by offering computer automation, but there is still good reason not to use it for everything if you value fuel efficiency.

[Red Iron Crown]

I may be late to the party. but to my knowledge only the very earliest real space craft were handled with manual controls. *snip*

That's not so. Every achievement by man in space was done first by automated spacecraft, except docking (and that lagged behind manned flight by only a year). The NASA rocket scientists didn't want pilots to have any manual control, as they were worried that the test pilots training to be astronauts would screw things up. It was only by leveraging their popularity in the media that the Original Seven got any sort of manual controls included. Even then, mission control on the ground was firmly in control of what the astronauts did.

The Russians were more pragmatic and had no qualms about having the whole show be automated.

MJ wastes more dV on those by demanding that you match planes perfectly before setting the transfer node. you can get a good plain by making small adjustments in mid transet that you will have to make anyway, instead of matching plains from the start.

I'm fairly sure that's not so. MJ will happily let you burn your Hohmann transfer before matching planes. What it won't do is let you do a Hohmann transfer to something in another SOI.

[Alchemist]

The Russians were more pragmatic and had no qualms about having the whole show be automated

Most large-scale Russian projects involved LEO assembly: original Soyuz project (7K-9K-11K lunar flyby), original version of L3 lunar landing, interplanetary crafts (TMK). That means several automated dockings before the manned ship is even launched. Just putting a man on the Mun wasn't Korolyov's main goal, his dream was Mars.

Anyway, there is a rule of Russian manned spacecraft design: the craft has to be able to perform the entire mission automated, the crew has to be able to take control at any stage and finish the mission (or return to Earth safely) in case of automatics failure. BTW, Progress can be remotely controlled from the station if its docking automation fails (and that collision with Mir was on manual remote control)

As for using such things as MechJeb or RemoteTech, I'd say it depends on what are you playing as. What you normally do in stock game is more like taking the role of the craft's autopilot. MJ puts you into the pilot's seat with ability to delegate control to the automatics or take full control yourself, RT simulates mission control.

I'm probably such as engineer that I prefer playing as the autopilot I'd design for the mission... I don't put much trust into standardized black box automatics.

[AlamoVampire]

gonna be 100% blunt here. MechJeb is one mod I think we ALL MUST USE. Why? Well, for one, it lets you <cannot believe I am gonna quote an infomercial> "set it and forget it" for those nerva burns. It also lets you launch ships that are otherwise impossible to fly.

Look, there are hordes of people who say: eeewww mechjeb, its cheating! but, look, I for one <being a pilot> think having access to every ounce of data on my vessel is a GOOD thing, having the ability to let a flight computer do the menial and/or tedious stuff is a GOOD thing.

My favorite example of the tedious stuff:

I had a mission to Eeloo. I launched ahead of a transfer window, because quite frankly I was impatient <90 days ahead of the window btw>. I launched, kicked my vessel out of Kerbins SOI and and told MechJeb to find me a transfer. It did, but, I did not like the idea of an 18 month trip to dump a satellite at Eeloo. SO, I kept the flight plan as given by MechJeb, and then, set about tweaking it by maneuver nodes. I strung something like 7 nodes and shaved a full 6 MONTHS off my trip. I hit the maneuver button and told it to execute ALL nodes. Had I done this myself, id have spent some seriously numbing time doing it by hand. Its like doing calculus with only a slide rule, while YES it can be done <Apollo proves it> its easier to do it with a graphing calculator.

Heck, it even lets you target say a space station and let the computer figure out when to launch to it.

Its a tool, the same as the nav ball or a parachute, something we all should really use.

[ThomsenX]

I'm sure this particular point of view has been posted already, but I thought I'd add my own 2 cents

While I agree that MechJeb, if introduced to the player too early in the learning process, may make the player depend fully on it, there are several positive sides to it too:

• It's more than an autopilot, i.e. it can also serve as an information output. E.g. I prefer not to spend 90% of my flight in map mode, so I use MechJeb to observe orbit characteristics and changes.
  
• TheRCS Balancer and Limit to terminal velocity utilities are hugely helpful!
  
• Two words: custom windows. The ability to set up for example a personalized rendezvous window with vessel and target info is just great. Phase angle to target is my new best friend
  
• MechJeb is great for those tedious rinse-repeat procedures, like launching several station modules based on the same launcher platform. Building a 20-module orbital station with frequent fuel/RCS and oxygen resupply missions is fun, but having to repeat the same launch over and over, IMHO, is not a lasting joy.
  

That being said, I'm glad that I started out without MechJeb, and failing in just about every aspect of the game, just like most others! I learnt all I needed to know from people like Scott Manley, and made sure to understand orbital mechanics before automating the process via the infamous mechanizised Jebediah Kerman, and that's a method that I still use today. I'm no wonder cosmonaut, and I'm still struggling with flying to other planets, but learning to insert into orbit, rendezvous, dock, land on moons etc. has been an adventure in itself, and I made sure to learn all those things manually before 'outsourcing' them to the autopilot. Basically, if something still challenges me, I fly by hand. Even after it becomes routine, I make sure to fly it manually once in a while to hone my skills, just like airliner pilots sometimes land without autopilot - just to make sure you don't forget how.

All in all, I must say that MechJeb is an invaluable tool in my little space program, mainly because it is so much more than an autopilot system. And I think we should all remember that while you might be landing your precious eighty-stage fusion rocket on the Sun, others still struggle to put Bill and Bob into a stable orbit, and even others are hauling the umpteenth part of their Jool mothership-to-be through the soupy Kerbin atmosphere to dock it to the other umpteen-minus-one parts. We are all different players, each with his or her own playing style, experience and understanding of the game, and we mustn't forget that.

/rant

Cheers,

- ThomsenX

[Red Iron Crown]

Just putting a man on the Mun wasn't Korolyov's main goal, his dream was Mars.

I loled at this, don't you mean Duna?

[John FX]

Half of the manuevers, I learnt them by watching MJ doing them. It's a nice tool for repetitive tasks or for the ones that you can't do... and you end up being able to do them as well xD

I`ve also learned things from watching MJ. Some of those things I can now do better manually but don`t because I really don`t want to have to bother doing it hands on.

My first docking attempt took 2 hours including rendezvous although I hadn`t figured out that RCS existed at that point, I just thought docking was hardcore and only after MJ would not dock did I learn about RCS...

When I did the grandmaster challenge, it was just as flags came out so I think I may have been the first person to plant a flag on every single body in the system. I did this stock (except for Kerbal Alarm Clock which really helped keep track of all the craft and nodes)

After doing that I found it very boring to have to manually launch every single craft almost exactly the same way. It`s also very boring to have to come back to the PC every minute or two on a long burn to slightly adjust trajectory and wait to press `X`

I can rendezvous quicker and usually using less fuel and TBH most other things MJ does I can do better. I still use MJ to be my co-pilot and test pilot. They do the boring stuff and I can carry on designing, building and dreaming.

For me it makes the game more fun by removing the need for me to do the stuff that is not fun anymore.

EDIT:

Hey, a thread about MJ that did not turn into a brawl in its first 24H

I will not be the first to quote on this but I think its the main point for me. As the current dev I see a lot of "miss use" of MJ by people who don't try to understand the mechanics behind it. Some of them are new players and that can be excused but others are not.

My point of view is that MJ should be used to learn those mechanics and not as a clutch or an excuse to not try. It's a tool and as such you need to understand its use and when to properly use it.

And good pilot should be able to use it for some task without having to deal with lamers who think that using it means you can't pilot.

I know, it`s crazy! Do you think the forum has seen some sense on the topic?

Exactly, As I say I`ve done everything pretty much. I can pilot. Some of it is a bit boring now. MJ does those things and is a great copilot but if you let them fly everything then you may as well just watch a video of ISS service missions.

Edited February 17, 2014 by John FX

[Clockwork_werewolf]

I have no problem with people using MJ.

Is it a good training for new players? I have no idea, I have never used it and although I found things like docking hard I got there in the end. I think I watched a video or two on it to get my head around the faster is slower idea.

Is it needed in stock? No.

Do I want it in stock? No, even if it could be turned off I feel it would take too much fun out of new players flying craft. I'm not sure if I would have kept playing if the game had been easier.

but its readouts are very useful, Smart A.S.S is well, it should be in the vanilla game

Yes, very, very useful, and should be in stock.

Although I would like to see my crafts total weight (which is already in the stock game but only after you take it to the launch pad) I don't want to see Delta-V in the design window. I like the thrill of not knowing where a craft can get to and risking not having enough fuel. Without this risk there is less thrill for me.

MechJeb is one mod I think we ALL MUST USE.

All should be free to use? Yes. Must use? No. I play the game my way as everyone can and should.

I would say for new players they should try and play without MJ but then download it if they like. Which is weird as that's how it is now.

[Wijbrandus]

I use Mech Jeb.

If I had to do every single thing manually, I would have quit this game and never come back.

[panzerknoef]

I use MJ from time to time... It has however helped me with figuring how to do rendez-vous's and so on. So yes, I think MJ makes the game more playable for new players who don't quite know what to do and such!

[Kerbart]

Obviously it depends from individual to individual case. Can it "ruin the game" for players who rely to much upon it without learning what needs to be learned? Yes. But it can also be a tool that helps to overcome hurdles that would turn the game into frustration otherwise.

My autistic son is going through something similar at school with arithmetic. To cut a long story short: we're now using a calculator for his "math" homework. Would he get a better understanding of his math homework without it? I doubt it, because he wouldn't get anything done at all. But at least we cured him of the adversity of math which was getting so bad that he didn't want to go to school anymore (and he used to love school).

On the other hand, I've been doing some SAT training on the side. It's very depressing when you tell highschool graduates that they really don't need a calculator to see that the square root of 45 lies somewhere between 6 and 7, after all 45 is between 36 and 49. "What's so special about 36 and 49?" "well those are the squares of 6 and 7" "How are we supposed to know that?"

So obviously, introducing a calculator early can do harm as well. The same goes for mechjeb. Use wisely. If you're introducing youngsters ("juniors") to KSP with the intention of them learning more about physics, I'd say that mechjeb is probably something to stay away from. But in that case you want to give them a playlist of Manley videos to figure things out.

[DerekL1963]

Obviously it depends from individual to individual case. Can it "ruin the game" for players who rely to much upon it without learning what needs to be learned? Yes.

There's nothing in the game that MJ does that you "need to learn" that will "lead to ruin" if you fail to learn it.

So obviously, introducing a calculator early can do harm as well. The same goes for mechjeb. Use wisely.

I don't see where that's obvious at all, nor does anything in your anecdotes provide any support for that.

[darkmuminek]

I'm reading this and can't understand one thing: How can a mod for a single player sandbox game ruin anything for anyone? You play it the way YOU want. If you need an autopilot then go ahead. If not then... just don't use it. In both cases stop telling people how to play the game!

Personally I use MechJeb and love it. Mostly because I don't have to do those repeatable actions by myself. Come on, how many inclination changes or Hohmann transfers can a man do without getting bored? The manouver planner is also great since the map view and manually setting manouver nodes simply suck. Also it's great for long lasting burns. I just punch "execute next node" and go for a smoke or do anything else.

Of course MechJeb is not perfect. The docking autopilot wastes a lot of RCS fuel and landing is better done manually because you have more control over where the craft will touch down (this is essential when you build something on other planets or moons).

Regardless, play the game however you want. Use as many mods as you like (and memory limitations allow ) and don't listen to people telling you what to do in KSP.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

"So obviously, introducing a calculator early can do harm as well. The same goes for mechjeb. Use wisely."

I don't see where that's obvious at all, nor does anything in your anecdotes provide any support for that.

If you do a fair amount of mental arithmetic (which is usually faster than a calculator for simple things) then you know all the square roots up to 100. These kids had been insulated to the point where they did not know the roots of 6 or 7. Its worth noting that just knowing there 6 and 7 times tables would also have meant they knew 7x7 and 6x6. The anecdote about not knowing the 6 and 7 roots is the proof that they have used calculators too much.

There's nothing in the game that MJ does that you "need to learn" that will "lead to ruin" if you fail to learn it.

Not as long as MJ keeps working no, but what if the maker stopped supporting it and it didn't work with an update? I'm sure 90% of people would be able to learn but 10% might just stop playing.

It would have ruined me if I had used it form the start because I would have got bored if I wasn't flying my own ship. This is a separate point though.

[darkmuminek]

Not as long as MJ keeps working no, but what if the maker stopped supporting it and it didn't work with an update? I'm sure 90% of people would be able to learn but 10% might just stop playing.

That's unlikely to happen. We have a great community that can pick up an abandoned project given it's popular enough. Like B9 mod for example? I know Bac9 didn't abandon it but the 0.23 compatibility was achieved by people from this forum, not him.*

*DISCLAIMER: I have nothing against Bac9. He's doing a great job with his mod and we can all wait patiently for the next version.

[Red Iron Crown]

Not as long as MJ keeps working no, but what if the maker stopped supporting it and it didn't work with an update?

I can't imagine MechJeb being abandoned completely, it's just too useful for too many players. It would be picked up by someone else if it stopped being supported. It's also one of the quickest mods to update for compatibility with new versions.

That said, it would be better to have it integrated into the core game, where support is guaranteed. I'd imagine it's one of the most used mods, if not the most used.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[John FX]

What would people do if Mechjeb were part of stock?

Would you use it or not if it was not a mod?

I would, same as I now use the subassembly loader and docking. Both of which used to be mods.

I'm reading this and can't understand one thing: How can a mod for a single player sandbox game ruin anything for anyone? You play it the way YOU want. If you need an autopilot then go ahead. If not then... just don't use it. In both cases stop telling people how to play the game!

I know. This is the only sensible route to take but a lot of people seem bothered by the actions of people they do not know that also do not affect them.

It`s like wanting noise regulations for trees falling in the forest when nobody is around.

Pointless.

Edited February 19, 2014 by John FX

[Clockwork_werewolf]

This is the only sensible route to take but a lot of people seem bothered by the actions of people they do not know that also do not affect them.

I agree 95% but...

That said, it would be better to have it integrated into the core game, where support is guaranteed.

Is what I do not want to happen. Which is why anyone has these arguments. People using MJ see those not using it as wanting to destroy the mod for everyone (which I and everyone I have seen does not want to do). People not using MJ see those who do use it as trying to get it or it's features implemented into the stock game. (which last time I checked was specifically stated to not be the Devs plan).

That's unlikely to happen. We have a great community that can pick up an abandoned project given it's popular enough.

Unlikely and yes if the author allowed someone to take over (which is very likely) and they could get it to work (there are a lot of gifted people here). Then yes no problem. What if a programming change required a whole rewrite of the code? It would happen but if it took 2 weeks? Those who don't know how to play would not be able to for two weeks. There are a few very unlikely (but still possible) scenarios where people would have to learn and be stuck. Do what you like though it's your game.

[Red Iron Crown]

Is what I do not want to happen. Which is why anyone has these arguments. People using MJ see those not using it as wanting to destroy the mod for everyone (which I and everyone I have seen does not want to do). People not using MJ see those who do use it as trying to get it or it's features implemented into the stock game. (which last time I checked was specifically stated to not be the Devs plan).

So was Multiplayer, yet here we are with it on the roadmap. The plan is not written in stone.

MechJeb integrated into the core game has the following advantages:

- Guarantees it will be supported in future versions.

- Makes the game more accessible for new players and players that, like myself, prefer the design and planning parts of the game to piloting.

- Reduces tedium/repetition.

- Allows MJ users to be eligible for support. (Modded installations are warranty void)

- No gameplay effect on those who choose not to use it.

Disadvantages:

- More code to support/debug.

- No one can claim MJ is cheating anymore.

Personally, I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.

The way I see it, the biggest problem with MechJeb is the perception by some that those who use it "aren't really playing the game." As if piloting and manual calculation are the only fun parts of the game for everyone, or that everyone should have to play at the hardest difficulty level. I find this point of view condescending and elitist.

[darkmuminek]

People using MJ see those not using it as wanting to destroy the mod for everyone (which I and everyone I have seen does not want to do).

I see it more like: People using MJ see those not using it as wanting to make them play the game THE ONLY PROPER WAY (which is theirs). Also from some comments (not only on this forum) I can see that people think not using MJ makes them an elite of some sort.

Unlikely and yes if the author allowed someone to take over (which is very likely) and they could get it to work (there are a lot of gifted people here). Then yes no problem. What if a programming change required a whole rewrite of the code? It would happen but if it took 2 weeks? Those who don't know how to play would not be able to for two weeks. There are a few very unlikely (but still possible) scenarios where people would have to learn and be stuck.

That applies to all mods. For example people playing realism mods like RSS, Remote Tech or Deadly Reentry would leave the game because it would become too easy.

Edited February 19, 2014 by darkmuminek

[Clockwork_werewolf]

So was Multiplayer, yet here we are with it on the roadmap. The plan is not written in stone.

No plan is written in stone, but Multiplayer was not added because they couldn't think of a way to add it and still be fun. They could have added MJ stuff 10 updates ago, but they haven't because it would change the gameplay in a way they do not want for stock.

Guarantees it will be supported in future versions.

which is nice for you but that means less time for them to update things I care about.

Makes the game more accessible for new players and players that, like myself, prefer the design and planning parts of the game to piloting.

I never gave up because I didn't install MJ. This game is interesting because it doesn't hold your hand every step of the way.

- Reduces tedium/repetition.

Yea I hate the rush and pressure of piloting stuff, it really gets me down.

- Allows MJ users to be eligible for support. (Modded installations are warranty void)

You are, uninstall MJ, bug test and if that does work, then reinstall, talk in the forums, and if no one has fixed it wait for the maker to fix it.

- No game play effect on those who choose not to use it.

I choose not to use it, only difference is at the moment the game is fun form the start, I would hate to have got bored after 10 hours because it was too easy. While we are at it lets make TAC life support, B9, FAR, IR, Deadly re-entry and Kethane stock too. It will have no effect on your game play as you will just be able to turn them off if you like.

I see it more like: People using MJ see those not using it as wanting to make them play the game THE ONLY PROPER WAY (which is theirs).

Use MJ if you like, you are free to like everyone else, but lets keep it an option. You have the option to use it, I just want it to stay Opt in, don't make it Opt out. Opt out is usualy associated with junk mail and is used because they know that if you don't know you can you don't. The strain on work load and delaying updates is a lot to ask just so that those that do use it can say it's now stock.

That applies to all mods. For example people playing realism mods like RSS, Remote Tech or Deadly Reentry would leave the game because it would become too easy.

It does, what makes your mod more important than theirs? Are we going with the 10 most used mods being added to stock option? Remember you can always opt out of them (after they have all loaded).

Edited February 19, 2014 by Clockwork_werewolf

[Red Iron Crown]

No plan is written in stone, but Multiplayer was not added because they couldn't think of a way to add it and still be fun. They could have added MJ stuff 10 updates ago, but they haven't because it would change the gameplay in a way they do not want for stock.

I don't know that you can speak for the devs' motives authoritatively in this way.

which is nice for you but that means less time for them to update things I care about.

Right, because what's important to you is all that matters. Other players obviously want and use MechJeb, why are their priorities less important than yours?

A counter-example: I don't like spaceplanes, never have, likely never will. Rolling C7's mod into the core game did nothing for me. But I know that many players like them, so I understand why it was included and that those other players' priorities are valid, too. The game is not just about me and how I like to play. Plus, I can still play my way, without spaceplanes.

Now reread the above but substitute "autopilot" for "spaceplanes" and "MechJeb" for "C7's mod". Would that be too difficult a position for you to take?

I never gave up because I didn't install MJ. This game is interesting because it doesn't hold your hand every step of the way.

Not everyone is as determined to learn by trial-and-error as you are. Many will just be turned off by the game's difficulty and not look back, or even discover that MechJeb is a thing.

Yea I hate the rush and pressure of piloting stuff, it really gets me down.

I have a reliable tanker that I've used many, many times to refuel things in LKO. I feel no "rush" or "pressure" when piloting it manually, I've done it too many times for that. Mechjeb reduces this tedium for me. Likewise for long nuclear or ion burns, I don't get a lot of fulfillment from manually keeping the nose pointed in the correct direction for minutes or hours.

You are uninstall MJ bug test and if that does work then reinstall talk in the forums, and if no one has fixed it wait for the maker to fix it.

That same argument can be applied for every mod that was incorporated into the core game. It's inconvenient, at best.

I choose not to use it, only difference is at the moment the game is fun for the start, I would hate to have got bored after 10 hours because it was too easy. while we are at it lets make TAC life support, B9, FAR, IR, Deadly re-entry and Kethane stock too. It will have no effect on your game play as you will just be able to turn them off if you like.

I don't think any single one of those mods is as popular as MechJeb, but I do think that some of them (or something like them) will be added to the core game.

Use MJ if you like, you are free to like everyone else, but lets keep it an option. You have the option to use it, I just want it to stay Opt in, don't make it Opt out. Opt out is usualy associated with junk mail and is used because they know that if you don't know you can you don't. The strain on work load and delaying updates is a lot to ask just so that those that do use it can say it's now stock.

No reason it couldn't be disabled by default in the core game, or have it increase usefulness as the game progresses (it does integrate into the tech tree in a way that introduces players to it gradually). "Strain on workload" and "delaying releases" are FUD, as far as I can tell. Every new feature added increases the complexity of the game, but I don't think anyone would suggest the devs stop adding features.

Honestly, your posts are an excellent example of the "my way is the only correct way to play" attitude that I (and others here) find so condescending.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Red Iron Crown

[DerekL1963]

If you do a fair amount of mental arithmetic (which is usually faster than a calculator for simple things) then you know all the square roots up to 100. These kids had been insulated to the point where they did not know the roots of 6 or 7. Its worth noting that just knowing there 6 and 7 times tables would also have meant they knew 7x7 and 6x6. The anecdote about not knowing the 6 and 7 roots is the proof that they have used calculators too much.

Except... your anecdote only "proves" they've used calculators too much and have thus been "harmed" only if you accept the premise that knowing all the square roots up to 100 is a desirable state. You're essentially making the same mistaken assumption when it comes to MJ - starting with an untenable assumption and then extrapolating from there. A castle built on air has no foundation.

Not as long as MJ keeps working no, but what if the maker stopped supporting it and it didn't work with an update?

You do realize that MJ has been abandoned by it's makers twice already? On top of being on it's third maintainer, there's at least three additional people that are currently contributing or have recently (I.E. within the last month) contributed code. Or, to put it another way, this is a variant of the same logical error you make above - you start with a mistaken assumption and then just dig yourself deeper from there.

"Don't start using MJ because it might go away someday" is the silliest anti-MJ argument I've ever heard - because the same could be said of any mod. But anyone who has been playing the game more than a month or two has seen what really happens when a desirable mod goes away... the community steps up and replaces it. There's a strong community of coders and testers, and it would take quite a bit for that to just vanish. And if it did, I expect one of the other autopilot mod authors would step up to fill that niche - there's abundant evidence that autopilots and informational plugins are very desirable to the playerbase. Heck, I'd bet that 90% of MJ is already available in bits and pieces scattered across a dozen other mods.

It would have ruined me if I had used it form the start because I would have got bored if I wasn't flying my own ship. This is a separate point though.

No, really, it's not. It's the very heart of your position (and the logical fallacies above), the position taken and argument used so very often by MJ's detractors - projecting your chosen playstyle onto others, declaring other playstyles invalid, and coming up with ever more tortured reasons to justify that position.

[darkmuminek]

which is nice for you but that means less time for them to update things I care about.

Because the things you care about are the most important things in this game. The developers are (or at least should) look at what the majority wants. If more people want MJ stock then it could be added into the game. If more people don't want it then it won't be added.

I never gave up because I didn't install MJ. This game is interesting because it doesn't hold your hand every step of the way.

It's interesting for YOU. That's exactly what many people here are saying: stop making us play the game the way YOU want it to be played. You like the challenges of manually doing everything, I prefer the challenges of real life like running my own company and games for me are a way to have easy fun. Both ways are correct.

I choose not to use it, only difference is at the moment the game is fun form the start, I would hate to have got bored after 10 hours because it was too easy. While we are at it lets make TAC life support, B9, FAR, IR, Deadly re-entry and Kethane stock too. It will have no effect on your game play as you will just be able to turn them off if you like.

It would be easy not to use MJ should it become stock (I'm not saying it should). Can't say the same about FAR or Deadly Reentry.

It does, what makes your mod more important than theirs? Are we going with the 10 most used mods being added to stock option? Remember you can always opt out of them (after they have all loaded).

Look at the beginning of this reply and answer one question: What makes the things you care about more important then the things others care? The same goes with mods. Also, I never said I want MJ stock. I'm perfectly fine with it as a mod.

No, really, it's not. It's the very heart of your position (and the logical fallacies above), the position taken and argument used so very often by MJ's detractors - projecting your chosen playstyle onto others, declaring other playstyles invalid, and coming up with ever more tortured reasons to justify that position.

You, sir, are so right.

[Clockwork_werewolf]

I don't know that you can speak for the devs' motives authoritatively in this way.

“Multiplayer is something we had planned to do after it was all said and done, but it’s time for us to start looking at it now,†http://www.pcgamer.com/uk/2013/12/12/kerbal-space-program-committed-to-multiplayer-career-and-sandbox-modes/

not with citation I realise but http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features for not adding autopilot. I think it was also discussed in an article but I can't find it at present. I also know the difference in level of work between making multiplayer (hard and a long QA) and adding MJ (quick and only needing one person for QA).

Right, because what's important to you is all that matters. Other players obviously want and use MechJeb, why are their priorities less important than yours?

Numbers. If only 50% of the people want it and 50% don't then you don't get to tell the Devs to do it. If I was the only person here who didn't want it this would be a valid point. Remember it always seems like those who disagree with you are alone where as you have everyone on your side. The reality is usually different.

A counter-example: I don't like spaceplanes, never have, likely never will. Rolling C7's mod into the core game did nothing for me. But I know that many players like them, so I understand why it was included and that those other players' priorities are valid, too. The game is not just about me and how I like to play. Plus, I can still play my way, without spaceplanes.

Space planes are a set of parts not a game mechanic. This is the difference. If they planned to REPLACE the rockets with space planes you would have a point.

Not everyone is as determined to learn by trial-and-error as you are. Many will just be turned off by the game's difficulty and not look back, or even discover that MechJeb is a thing.

Maybe, not met anyone who has yet, in person, online or in reviews. Maybe we should conduct a test introducing people to Kerbal with or without MJ. You need to prove it is better with to change the statue quo and even then it is up to the Devs in the end.

Mechjeb reduces this tedium for me.

Cool, go ahead, keep using it.

No reason it couldn't be disabled by default in the core game

It might be a little strange to do this but it is a position I can get behind. There would be an extra weight to the coding but for the integration and bug fixing I could see it being helpful enough to justify the cost. It is still the Dev's decision though.

"Strain on workload" and "delaying releases" are FUD, as far as I can tell.

"FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information." Negative yes, dubious (opinion), false no.

Honestly, your posts are an excellent example of the "my way is the only correct way to play" attitude that I (and others here) find so condescending.

One I never said don't use MJ, I very clearly said go ahead and use it. To quote myself

I have no problem with people using MJ.

All should be free to use? Yes. Must use? No. I play the game my way as everyone can and should.

I have rewritten about ten things I wanted to say but felt were to condescending or insulting.

Honestly you posts come across as "I would like this to be stock so everyone plays like me, no matter what others think". I don't think this is what you are really asking for or the impression you wanted to give.