Kerbal Construction Time/StageRecovery Dev Thread

[JeffreyCor]

I haven't thought about this much, but are you implying that (in your example) every 3 days you get a science point? Hmm. I could add something so that you could earn science (at a similar rate) as long as vessels are building (your engineers are getting hands on experience). Otherwise, maybe you could reduce your build rate and divert some of the resources to "research". At the end of the research, you get a science point. It'd be like another build list (maybe with the upgrade system I want to introduce, you could upgrade your research rate). I will think about this. If other people want it implemented, I can definitely do it.

This is a little like the economic idea I was thinking for .24 to put up satellite radio and TV for credits Low income for satellite radio, medium for basic satellite TV, high for HD TV A bit like leasing out time on satellites for income.

[Floppster]

Both of your ideas are really cool!

[magico13]

Well what I really meant was that in order to unlock a new tech node, you have to wait something like 3 days for every SCIENCE!!! point it costs

That's what I thought you meant originally but wasn't sure. I know Ekku Zakku, who created this mod originally, wanted to require time to unlock tech nodes, but I never spent any time on making that happen. I've only looked briefly at the tech tree related parts of KSP and it's kind of confusing (I haven't figured out how to even get a list of the unlocked tech nodes, let alone just the number of them. I can check for specific ones though.) I wouldn't want to interfere too much with the current method of unlocking them (aka, you still unlock them from the R&D center) but I MIGHT be able to intercept the exchange between pressing the unlock button and you receiving access to everything. If that's the case, I could easily make it so it takes time to unlock the parts. But I have no idea if that's possible. I'll look into it.

My proposed idea was basically a free science generator. As ships build, you gain a little extra science. Maybe only like 1 point for 10 days worth of building, then you could increase the rate instead of increasing build rate. I think I'd tie it to the "build points" of the vessels, that way when you get faster build rates you don't get less science (by that time you should be getting more). You could upgrade the conversion rate, so at maximum maybe you get 1 pt per day of building.

Basically, science earned (SE) = conversion rate (CR) * build points (BP) / 86400 (seconds per 24 hours). This assumes Earth days, so 24 hours. So at first "tier" after unlocking the ability, you have a CR of 0.1, so SE=0.1*BP/86400, or 0.1 science per day, or 1 science per 10 days. At max tier, CR=1.0, so SE=1.0*BP/86400 or 1 science per day. Build Points is kind of measured in seconds, as a rate of 1 BP per second (BPS) is the current rate in the mod right now (as build points don't "officially" exist yet).

Edit: You'd earn the science immediately when the ship finishes. Instead of keeping track of the "progress" of it, I'd just do the calculation at the end. This does mean that if you upgrade your CR right before a ship finishes, you'd get more science.

[Floppster]

All unlocked nodes are stored in the persistent under Tech{} paragraphs, but I don't know how to find the sci points for locked nodes.

Either way, if you get it working, I would be really grateful. If you don't, still some great work you've done here

The science from builds seems like a solid idea, but imho it's a little cheap. Especially longer into the game, 1 sp/day doesn't really do anything when everything costs 550 and 1000 each. But then again, I don't know how long the build times are for end-game ships.

[Kalista]

That's what I thought you meant originally but wasn't sure. I know Ekku Zakku, who created this mod originally, wanted to require time to unlock tech nodes, but I never spent any time on making that happen. I've only looked briefly at the tech tree related parts of KSP and it's kind of confusing (I haven't figured out how to even get a list of the unlocked tech nodes, let alone just the number of them. I can check for specific ones though.) I wouldn't want to interfere too much with the current method of unlocking them (aka, you still unlock them from the R&D center) but I MIGHT be able to intercept the exchange between pressing the unlock button and you receiving access to everything. If that's the case, I could easily make it so it takes time to unlock the parts. But I have no idea if that's possible. I'll look into it.

My proposed idea was basically a free science generator. As ships build, you gain a little extra science. Maybe only like 1 point for 10 days worth of building, then you could increase the rate instead of increasing build rate. I think I'd tie it to the "build points" of the vessels, that way when you get faster build rates you don't get less science (by that time you should be getting more). You could upgrade the conversion rate, so at maximum maybe you get 1 pt per day of building.

Basically, science earned (SE) = conversion rate (CR) * build points (BP) / 86400 (seconds per 24 hours). This assumes Earth days, so 24 hours. So at first "tier" after unlocking the ability, you have a CR of 0.1, so SE=0.1*BP/86400, or 0.1 science per day, or 1 science per 10 days. At max tier, CR=1.0, so SE=1.0*BP/86400 or 1 science per day. Build Points is kind of measured in seconds, as a rate of 1 BP per second (BPS) is the current rate in the mod right now (as build points don't "officially" exist yet).

Edit: You'd earn the science immediately when the ship finishes. Instead of keeping track of the "progress" of it, I'd just do the calculation at the end. This does mean that if you upgrade your CR right before a ship finishes, you'd get more science.

Personally if you do somethin like this the science imo should come mainly from simulating launches more so than building with a diminishing return so you can't sim spam for points. That way your simulating the R&D of your designs and learning from testing.

[magico13]

All unlocked nodes are stored in the persistent under Tech{} paragraphs, but I don't know how to find the sci points for locked nodes.

Either way, if you get it working, I would be really grateful. If you don't, still some great work you've done here

The science from builds seems like a solid idea, but imho it's a little cheap. Especially longer into the game, 1 sp/day doesn't really do anything when everything costs 550 and 1000 each. But then again, I don't know how long the build times are for end-game ships.

Well, keep in mind you'd also be upgrading your primary and secondary build rates, so in the course of a day you could pump out about 5 days worth of building, each granting you science. It shouldn't be a primary science income, just a nice little boost. And when you're waiting many days for transfer windows, that means a potential for a lot of science. Also, it would be more balanced than what I've described so far, since I haven't put that much thought into it and it hasn't been playtested. I'm mostly brainstorming at the moment.

I know the existence of the ConfigNodes and ProtoScenarioModules for the tech tree and the progress tracking, but actually using them is fairly difficult. I will probably need to find ways to access the ProtoScenarioModules either from the CurrentGame or from the ReasearchAndDevelopment. I haven't looked too far into it, I just know that working with ConfigNodes is somewhat challenging for me (all of the KCT stuff is stored in ConfigNodes in the persistence)

Personally if you do somethin like this the science imo should come mainly from simulating launches more so than building with a diminishing return so you can't sim spam for points. That way your simulating the R&D of your designs and learning from testing.

The only thing then is that simulations are free and quick. Building takes time and prevents you from building other things. Though I do want to make simulations more rewarding. I'll consider this. Perhaps as some sort of boost? We'll see.

[Kalista]

The only thing then is that simulations are free and quick. Building takes time and prevents you from building other things. Though I do want to make simulations more rewarding. I'll consider this. Perhaps as some sort of boost? We'll see.

Boast would work. Because right now simulations are basicly to make sure your rocket won't lawndart or your lander can accually land like you said making them more rewarding would be nice.

[Kalista]

Also just managed to recreate my vessal crash causes tracking center to break bug. Flying one of my planes when it got a taste of Ferrams new Aerodynamics and slammed into a hill after returning to the SC ( thru the normal window not that one that pops up on crash) tracking center went totally haywire.

output log

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwYzqg0314S0OUxjaXZfSVcwcnc/edit?usp=sharing

save file

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwYzqg0314S0SXB2dHljUlFqQlk/edit?usp=sharing

[magico13]

Boast would work. Because right now simulations are basicly to make sure your rocket won't lawndart or your lander can accually land like you said making them more rewarding would be nice.

Well, that was the only reason I made the simulations in the first place Since back in the old days (aka, before I took over) you had to hope your ship could make it to orbit after spending 5 days on the construction of said ship with no way to revert to before the time. It proved fatal for me (luckily I had backed up my save), so I implemented simulations in the first pre-release after I took over so you could test a ship before building it. Though I do want to make them useful somehow, but the question is, how do I prevent people from simulation spamming and just starting a simulation and then stopping it, then repeating that, to gain some sort of benefit. How do I quantify a "successful" simulation? Is it based on the time? But that's not always applicable. What if you're just testing if your rover won't tip over at 20m/s or you can make it to 10km? Or is it objective based? Reach orbit/Mun SOI/leave Kerbin SOI. But none of those really work for testing a plane or a rover or a lander. There's so many possible "end" conditions and programming all of them would be difficult for not a huge improvement in gameplay.

This isn't really directed at you Kalista, just thoughts I'm having.

Also, I'll take a look at those files tomorrow

[Kalista]

What about a second option In addition to build? For example have build craft and build and research ( which just tacks on time to the build to simulate the research being done but in return get some science points and later when the economy is added added cost to the craft). Just an idea that I'm tossing out.

[JeffreyCor]

Potentially along those lines it can also be addressed in settings to have a defined amount of work going to research (R&D) during the construction of a ship.

[MisterFister]

Odd thing happened and not sure if it's my end or mod related. in the map view opening KCT and clicking Warp to Complete caused the game to freeze. Could someone else try this and see if they have the same result please?

I also run RT2, and I see the same issue. I cannot confirm that it's an interactivity issue, though it would make sense to me that it were. I can however say that, warping aside, if I were to actually launch a readied craft from anywhere outside of the KSC screen, I can launch... and it doesn't seem to deplete my inventory. I think it's possible to spam launches this way. A blind spot in the code?

Perhaps a decent temporary solution would be to remove warp and launch buttons from all interfaces except from the KSC main screen. In lieu of that, perhaps arranging for better interactivity with Kerbal Alarm Clock?

[magico13]

I also run RT2, and I see the same issue. I cannot confirm that it's an interactivity issue, though it would make sense to me that it were. I can however say that, warping aside, if I were to actually launch a readied craft from anywhere outside of the KSC screen, I can launch... and it doesn't seem to deplete my inventory. I think it's possible to spam launches this way. A blind spot in the code?

Perhaps a decent temporary solution would be to remove warp and launch buttons from all interfaces except from the KSC main screen. In lieu of that, perhaps arranging for better interactivity with Kerbal Alarm Clock?

The removal from storage should happen as soon as the ship is placed on the pad and physics is loaded, so should be agnostic as to where you press the launch button from. I'll have to test that out more, as I don't know why it wouldn't be working. If you revert to VAB/SPH then it will reappear in the storage, as it should. That's the reason I don't remove it when you press the launch button, otherwise you can't revert to a time before you launched it (it'd be safer this way, but really annoying).

As soon as KAC gets its API, this will be one of the first mods adding compatibility, trust me However, I'm also not going to remove the warp button because of bad interaction with one mod. I imagine that when RT2 fixes the issues that cause the tracking station crash every time I go into the TS without first going into flight mode, it will probably cause this issue to go away. The crashes appear identical to each other, though I can't think of a reason why timewarping would cause the issue. (All the Warp to Complete button does is increase the timewarp up to maximum).

Could someone test it with the MaxTimeWarp set to something below maximum? (So in stock+RT2+KCT, set it to 6 instead of 7) That might provide another workaround.

Edit: Just tested launching from TS. It doesn't remove from the storage. It appears to be throwing a null reference instead :/

E2: The null reference appears to be the one with TimeWarp that happens when ships get launched (possibly just at scene changes) that I don't understand (started with 0.23.5). It appears that the non-removal is happening when launched from the Tracking Station, but it still is calling the removeFromInventory function on launch. So something is clearly going wrong somewhere. It does appear to work properly from the flight scene though.

Edited May 3, 2014 by magico13

[Kalista]

It might be related to my TC goes nuts on vessal destroy bug but i'm still not sure if that ones caused by KCT or MJ since there both throwing errors in my logs.

[JeffreyCor]

Could someone test it with the MaxTimeWarp set to something below maximum? (So in stock+RT2+KCT, set it to 6 instead of 7) That might provide another workaround.

I have an install just for things like this

Lower max settings still cause the game to freeze in orbital map view on warp to complete. Of note, this also only occurs when there is a RT2 connection active further confirming a RT2 problem with this occurring.

[magico13]

I have an install just for things like this

Lower max settings still cause the game to freeze in orbital map view on warp to complete. Of note, this also only occurs when there is a RT2 connection active further confirming a RT2 problem with this occurring.

Thanks for trying that. I'm not sure what to do about that, other than suggest no one use Warp to Complete in map mode with RT2 installed for the time being. Its similarity to the TS crash bug that I get makes me think they're related, as I said before. So hopefully the fix for one, fixes the other.

It might be related to my TC goes nuts on vessal destroy bug but i'm still not sure if that ones caused by KCT or MJ since there both throwing errors in my logs.

I'm still trying to work my way through those logs, and haven't gotten to look at the save file yet today. You're getting errors from everywhere at all different times. I can't figure out quite yet what's causing it (though it appears to be when things crash into Kerbin in the Tracking Station). For whatever reason it seems the vessels or something is null (even the stock code is complaining about that) but I'm not sure how it's getting past the initial check I do in the onDestroy, unless it's something in the check that's the issue (I thought I removed the possible cause, but apparently not)

[JeffreyCor]

Since it's more an annoyance than a problem and can be worked around, waiting for other updates sounds very reasonable. The KCT screen can still be used to see how long until completion and use the stock KSP time controls.

[magico13]

Since it's more an annoyance than a problem and can be worked around, waiting for other updates sounds very reasonable. The KCT screen can still be used to see how long until completion and use the stock KSP time controls.

I could add an "always stop time warp when a ship completes" option to the settings menu. Then you can use normal time warp and it would still stop at the (almost) the right time. It might stop up to an hour or so past it, depending on the warp speed.

[codepoet]

I am desperate to start using this on my main save. Is it stable enough yet, or should I wait for a first release?

[Floppster]

It is as long as you don't use its warp in the tracking center

Other than that, I say it's a great mod.

[magico13]

I am desperate to start using this on my main save. Is it stable enough yet, or should I wait for a first release?

There are only a few major bugs (mainly the ones mentioned in the last page or so, so tracking station issues mostly). So I'd consider it fairly stable. I'm mostly just trying to add new features at this point, before a final release. So, it's kind of in Beta, rather than Alpha at this stage. The first official release will probably be a while.

[JeffreyCor]

I am desperate to start using this on my main save. Is it stable enough yet, or should I wait for a first release?

It's absolutely stable for a main campaign. And very recommended too The bugs recently discovered since the last release ( Sorry, missed them ) are easy to work around and if you do get stung by it, it will not break your save.

[JeffreyCor]

Building some large long build ships I'm really seeing the advantage to being able to have more than one ship being built at a time Looking forward to that and the other neat things you have in store

[JeffreyCor]

The mini ship showing up seems to be an artifact of RT2. Thus far all instances of that have disappeared since removing RT2 from the mods. Very minor thing, but knowing where the cause is can be helpful anyway.

[magico13]

The mini ship showing up seems to be an artifact of RT2. Thus far all instances of that have disappeared since removing RT2 from the mods. Very minor thing, but knowing where the cause is can be helpful anyway.

I'm pretty sure it's not actually RT2 related. I know the cause is from me loading the ships in the space center scene, which I have to do in order to access the parts (but once they're loaded I can access them from any scene. But loading them in the flight scene causes really really weird bugs, mostly the ghost ships but up close and personal and null references). When I take the time to write my own parser for the ship files that can get me a list of parts then the problem will go away. The effort required is non-trivial, but the bug itself is fairly harmless, so I haven't done it yet. But thank you for trying anyway

I just took my last final yesterday (of my entire undergraduate career), so I have a lot more free time now. Which means playing KSP and working on this