Two neighboring stars develop intelligent life. (discussion)

[Drunkrobot]

I believe that aliens exist. I do so because probability suggests so. True, the odds of any one star producing a planet that has all the perquisites for a long-lasting civilization to rise is astronomical, akin to any one national lottery ticket being the winner. But even if the odds of any one star "winning" the lottery was one in a billion, that still leaves our galaxy holding 400 billion tickets. It would be very surprising if we did turn out to be the only ones alive.

Of course, I can't predict us winning the lottery one week, only for our next-door neighbors to win the next, with the same level of certainty.

In this scenario, two stars, both very close to each other (think Sol and Alpha Centauri, ~4 light years), produces life independently, eventually leading to two sapient species, that both organize into technology wielding civilizations. The two of them are extremely close to each other in progress, less than a century of difference (for example, one may achieve mastery of wireless radio as the other is building it's first nuclear reactor). Yes, I'm aware it is very unlikely that evolutionary processes spanning billions of years will produce two societies so in "lockstep" with eachother, but none of this is really that likely to begin with. "A few sentences ago" would've been an excellent time to start analyzing.

Anyway, eventualy they both develop radio communications. One points their receivers towards the others star, and they pick up signals that are most certainly not natural. The thousands, millions of messages both planets have been leaking out into space reaches eachothers ears.

How do they both react to this? This is something that SETI has been trying to find for 50 years, but only more so. Whatever radio signals we receive would've been traveling for at least decades, even centuries. Here, the round trip for a message, and a response is a mere 8 years. To sum it up, we have the makings for the ultimate long-distance relationship.

Would there be violence and fear, or rejoicing and acceptance? What sort of response would they both make? Would either of them make any long-term plans, from trying to assemble a starship to serve as a diplomatic envoy, to a missile designed to hit the other guy's planet as hard as possible?

[Accelerando]

4ly would probably be around the edge of possibility for receiving undirected radio broadcasts from one system or other. Beyond that, radio signals fade into the cosmic background noise, as the signal spreads out and becomes more disparate due to inverse square law.

That said, the more technologically capable society would be more likely to detect the lesser society first, partly because of better detection technology, partly because their transmissions would not be as powerful due to that detection technology. When the lesser society starts broadcasting around the globe, they will need to send more powerful signals to be received clearly, whereas the greater society will have the benefit of advances and infrastructure. Thus it would be likely that the capable society makes contact first.

Fear vs acceptance will come down to culture and diplomacy, with violence and rejoicing coming much later if they come. Violence because sending weapons across the stars would be a major feat for either species if we're talking about a century of difference in human terms, rejoicing because sending any aid across the stars is going to be just as difficult, though rejoicing might be more likely if the local culture really likes the idea of aliens. And the less capable society is going to be more likely to feel fear, at first, due to the technology disparity.

In the long run, I think violence is a less likely outcome than ambivalence or rejoicing. Developing technology for interstellar travel will probably obviate any need one side will have for the other's resources, simply because if you have the technology to either survive for centuries-long journeys without issue (generation ship) or send military hardware across the stars in enough time that the enemy won't be able to see it and then build their own defense fleet (torchships bordering on fantasy, or FTL travel) then you don't need anything physical that the enemy could provide.

On the other hand, a war of ideologies is possible given a very imperialistic society on one side or both. Whether or not this would happen would depend on how quickly one side advances with respect to the other, since developing technology, building, and targeting relativistic weapons could allow the other side ample time to build their own, and with a 4ly information delay, there's no telling whether if you launch yours, you've just ensured your own destruction.

Another possibility that could tie in with this is technology trade  for one, the two worlds could benefit from sharing scientific and engineering data. They could also choose to broadcast no technology-related information, to keep the other side from benefitting.

What do you all think?

Edited March 4, 2014 by Accelerando
added more speculation on warfare and interaction

[Ralathon]

I'm going to assume both have fairly human mentalities. Simply because I can't predict how anything else might react.

As said above the technologically advanced species will detect this situation first. At first there will be widespread panic, faint radiosignals from a close star? Sounds like an invasion fleet. Once they realize what's going on they'll definitely start to send messages. If you only need to send the signal 4 LY's there are simply too many people with the required resources to keep quiet. I suspect that making mathematically encrypted messages will become a popular pastime for radio amateurs.

Once the lesser civilization actually detects the other, things will really get moving. At first there will be some panic, but not as badly as with the other civilization. After all, the signals are quite clearly encrypted messages meant specifically for them. Not the kind of thing you'd expect as a prelude for a invasion. As soon as they decrypt some of the messages they'll start to send their own. Thanks to the short response time they should be able to communicate pretty quickly. Since communication is so easy I suspect all sorts of culture and technology will start to flow between the 2. The lesser Civ would be influenced the most by this, anyone with a big dish and a decryption algorithm can get a century ahead. It's like giving Maxwell a book on Relativity.

Since both civilizations know that they can't really hurt, or by hurt by the other they'll likely become friends, or something close to it. On a scientific level it is immensely useful to have 2 stellar vantage points. The huge parralax allows you to measure interstellar distances much more accurately, not to mention the glee of every biologist out there.

If either species is a bit paranoid it might even trigger a space race later on. As soon as one species figures out interstellar travel they can attack the other, so it is in both species's best interest to develop relativistic rockets first. The sheer resources needed for such a project will probably discourage them from actually using it however.

[CalculusWarrior]

I imagine there would be great excitement on each world every 8 years, as this is when you'd hear the reply back from the other civilization! I suppose it is sort of like writing letters to one another.

[Rocketscience101]

Could it be possible that a species neighboring our own solar system has advanced farther than us technologically. I'm not saying they've visited us yet, but what if they see our galaxy and within their first interstellar mission. I honestly cannot wait to see if this possibility of an Extra terrestrial visit.

[NASAFanboy]

I suggest we stay silent and listen, and try to deduce their technological level. Are they industrial age, atomic age, space age, information age? Are they barbaric, cultural, or industry-focused? Are they xenophonic? If they have invented television, find a way to get their TV shows (In an odd inversion of Aliens Steal Cable), and analyze them. Find out clues about how they view their race, how they view aliens, how they imagine aliens, how they work, their ancient histories, their thinkers, their literature, their writings, and their language.

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Personally, I myself believe that the human race is one of the early intelligent species in the Universe, and (hopefully), are thus more advanced than an neighboring intelligent civilization. Why? Having an interstellar species as a close neighbor is an nightmare for me. They can acclerate objects up to the speed of light, and thus, they can strike us without warning and wipe clean every inhabited surface in the entire Sol system (Lets say we colonized the Moon and Mars), and because they are near the speed of light, we cannot pinpoint when they will strike. An alien species capable of interstellar travel likely hasn't abandoned their violent tendencies, remember that even though humanity is an infant spacefaring race, we have still performed acts of such cruelty in the recent years, acts disgusting enough to make me wonder, "Was it really a human that did it?".

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[NOTICE | SOME ISSUES OVERLOOKED | NOTICE]

Now, lets say I'm the President of the United States, and its my first week in office when SETI recieves an interstellar radio message from another star. What would be my first act? Secretly meet with broadcasting companies and find a way to make our signals to stop bouncing to outer space, followed by a meeting with close international leaders of the world to inform them that SETI has recieved a message that "may be extraterrestial in origin". Followed by this, I would immediately increase funding for the space program with an massive "black project" to research advanced technologies but keep the reason hidden to the Public. Then it would be a waiting game of listening and estimating their technology level, and slow adjustment as I use political influence to have a Senate hearing about alien life and give a couple speechs about life on other worlds, before revealling the whole truth to the public six years after. I would then inform the public of an government project to catch up with alien technology (If they were more advanced) or an project to send an starship to their home system (If they were less advanced). Only when I'm certain that the United States/The World has achieved an level of technological advancement that is clearly higher than the aliens, that's when we reply (And proceed to freak out hundreds of alien astronomers), followed by sending a small probe to their system. By replying, we would inform them of the probe, and inform them that we have a small ship headed their way for scientific purposes of mutual benfit. Throughout this, technology should be developed at an maddening pace, cumilating with an manned starship, and hopefully, an working FTL acclubierre drive to their system, from where we should provide them with computing and medical technologies and the most basic of spacefaring technologices (If they are not yet spacefaring; most basic is basically 1950's-1965 space tech) as a sign of mutual respect, then move along and encourage them to develop naturally but making repeat assurances of peace and mutual respect.

[Sillychris]

I think the most interesting thing about communicating with an alien species in close proximity is we'd finally found out whether DNA is an inevitability for life to exist or if there is some other molecule we haven't imagined which could enable life.

For all you virus lovers out there, I don't really consider RNA to be distinct from DNA

[Accelerando]

Personally, I myself believe that the human race is one of the early intelligent species in the Universe, and (hopefully), are thus more advanced than an neighboring intelligent civilization. Why? Having an interstellar species as a close neighbor is an nightmare for me. They can acclerate objects up to the speed of light, and thus, they can strike us without warning and wipe clean every inhabited surface in the entire Sol system (Lets say we colonized the Moon and Mars), and because they are near the speed of light, we cannot pinpoint when they will strike. An alien species capable of interstellar travel likely hasn't abandoned their violent tendencies, remember that even though humanity is an infant spacefaring race, we have still performed acts of such cruelty in the recent years, acts disgusting enough to make me wonder, "Was it really a human that did it?".

There's a flipside to that: unless this other interstellar species is the first in the Milky Way to have left their world in the 13 billion years since the formation of the Universe, which they could never truly verify, using a relativistic weapon is going to cause an enormous explosion that will be impossible to cover up to anyone else with an arsenal. Violent or not, they would be signing their own death warrants.

[Gravaar]

There's a flipside to that: unless this other interstellar species is the first in the Milky Way to have left their world in the 13 billion years since the formation of the Universe, which they could never truly verify, using a relativistic weapon is going to cause an enormous explosion that will be impossible to cover up to anyone else with an arsenal. Violent or not, they would be signing their own death warrants.

Just thought I would add" But only if someone saw you do it" Space is sort of large and if a planet goes POP for no reason, there is no guarantee that someone else was watching at the exact moment that it met its doom, barring being able to travel at FTL speed to see it happen again and analyse it

But if you are the kind of civilisation that would do it, then you would probably take the shot and hope no one saw it

Notice I said planet NOT sun, Solar explosions WILL generate a fair amount of interest given how our own astronomers react to any change in their work area

[NASAFanboy]

There's a flipside to that: unless this other interstellar species is the first in the Milky Way to have left their world in the 13 billion years since the formation of the Universe, which they could never truly verify, using a relativistic weapon is going to cause an enormous explosion that will be impossible to cover up to anyone else with an arsenal. Violent or not, they would be signing their own death warrants.

Unfortunately, these projectiles can't be seen, they can't be traced, and most of all, the light of their destruction will not reach another intelligent species for decades, and by then, it would be too late. Also, planet's go "BOOM" all of the time, that's almost normal, since anything can do that (Nuclear war, asteroid, collision with other planet) - except, only the surface of the planet is scorched and sterilized, the planet itself does not literally shatter to pieces.

This is why SETI should listen, not talk, until we have advanced enough in space travel to go interstellar.

[jwenting]

and even at 4ly distance, given the technology we can envision now, we can't get much faster than 0.1% of c, so a trip would take around 8000 years one way (including time to speed up and slow down, obviously).

That's not very useful.

Even at 10% c, a round trip would end up taking 160 years, which might be workable if there's a species that's rather longer lived than hours (say living several thousand earth years), but for a species with similar physiology to ours would be useless.

Unmanned one way probes might work, but they'd still need 4 years for their data to get back and the pictures of the natives they take.

[jwenting]

There's a flipside to that: unless this other interstellar species is the first in the Milky Way to have left their world in the 13 billion years since the formation of the Universe, which they could never truly verify, using a relativistic weapon is going to cause an enormous explosion that will be impossible to cover up to anyone else with an arsenal. Violent or not, they would be signing their own death warrants.

To anyone elsewhere, who'd get to see the result on their radio telescopes a few million years after the fact, it'd look like just another supernova or pulsar (for example, who knows those might be the results of your relativistic weapons and our understand of stellar physics way off).

[NASAFanboy]

and even at 4ly distance, given the technology we can envision now, we can't get much faster than 0.1% of c, so a trip would take around 8000 years one way (including time to speed up and slow down, obviously).

That's not very useful.

Even at 10% c, a round trip would end up taking 160 years, which might be workable if there's a species that's rather longer lived than hours (say living several thousand earth years), but for a species with similar physiology to ours would be useless.

Unmanned one way probes might work, but they'd still need 4 years for their data to get back and the pictures of the natives they take.

If we were both lucky, optimisitic, and crazy, a Orion Drive or solar sail, whatever, we might be able to get one, two, three, or maybe even four percent of the speed of light. But of course, that requires that we break international law and give the space agency the funding of the Department of Defense, along with driving the world into an economic recession and setting planetary science back for decades due to funding issues. Oh, yeah, and the starship won't be ready for a half a century. And if we tried to get ten percent of light speed, we'd be bankrupting the governments of the world, be giving hundreds of billions of dollars to every space agency, and be faced with massive social unrest - and Planetary Science probably would cease to exist. Better to leave NASA on the path it is.

Anyways, we don't exactly need to reach their system, just find other ways to assert our technological dominace. We could build a relay station on Mars, and then send a message from there along with messaging them from Earth as a style of "Hey, we've gone interplanetary. How are you doing?". If they are advanced enough, they will soon figure out that we are transmitting from another planet in our soalr system. We could also radio them messages from the Jovian moons as another way of saying "Hi" and indirectly asserting our technological advancements.

[Motokid600]

"SETI should litsen, not talk."

What are the chances another society is currently ease dropping on us? What if thats why everyone is so quiet... Because were so loud.

[NASAFanboy]

"SETI should litsen, not talk."

What are the chances another society is currently ease dropping on us? What if thats why everyone is so quiet... Because were so loud.

I don't want any of our signals to be picked up by an race capable of interstellar travel.

Firstly, they could send relavistic projectiles that will wipe clean every inhabited surface in the solar system without us ever detecting it or another race ever finding out.

Secondly, I don't think humanity is ready yet. When we've advanced more culturally, perhaps, but for now now, no.

[Drunkrobot]

I don't think an interstellar craft is totally infeasable. Mobilizing the industry of the entire Earth could produce an Orion-powered O'Neil cylinder in a century or two, and a much smaller craft would require much less. You also have to consider what state the human race will be in a few centuries down the line. Technology will, of course, be far ahead of ours, and Humanity would potentially call upon the resources of multiple planets, and many moons and asteroids. To that era, an interstellar ship will be comparable to a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, expensive, but far from impossible.

On the subject of not making contact with any extraterrestrials, I remember a short story I once read, where Sol is inside a region of the Galaxy, covering roughly 3% of the Galaxy by volume, called by outsiders "the Veil of Madness". Any sapient race that evolves inside the Veil is totally insane, and quickly annihilates itself. Except for humanity. Not that we're immune to the Veil, we are still crazy, just not debilitatingly so. That's why we expand into interstellar space and find nobody, becuase they always kill themselves before we find them. We reach the edge of the Veil, not knowing that it even exists, and why we keep finding alien rubble, and we run into living, functional, totally sane aliens. And they're TERRIFIED of us, because we just popped out of the Veil that drives everyone crazy, and we're the biggest power in the galaxy (everyone else had to contend with each other, while we were left unmatched in the Veil).

After failing to convince the Aliens we're not insane, we decide to just play the part of the crazy monsters, unwittingly playing the biggest practical joke in the history of the Universe.

Not that this is a serious explanation or anything, it was a funny story and seemed to fit in to the thread.

[Brenok]

Even at 10% c, a round trip would end up taking 160 years, which might be workable if there's a species that's rather longer lived than hours

Yeah, I'm pretty sure space travel wouldn't be pratical for a species that only lives for a few hours

[Seshins]

Im going to agree with NASAFanboy here - under no circumstances should we be broadcasting our location, biology or anything like that into space. IMO it was far wiser to sit back and listen, and wait, and try to get the drop on "whoever" before they get the drop on us...

[visiontranstech]

I think there are alien.I do so because it suggest the possibility.True, the odds of any star make a planet that the perquisites for a long civilization to rise was astronomical, relative to an national lottery ticket would be winner. These stars close to each other and giving a life each other independently eventually leading two scholars human species , arranged in technology wielding civilizations. I am aware it is highly unlikely that evolution process covering billion years.

[jwenting]

If we were both lucky, optimisitic, and crazy, a Orion Drive or solar sail, whatever, we might be able to get one, two, three, or maybe even four percent of the speed of light.

And even at that speed it would take decades to get there and decades more to get back. If you sent an astronaut fresh out of flight training at say age 25 he's get back at around age 100.

[jwenting]

Im going to agree with NASAFanboy here - under no circumstances should we be broadcasting our location, biology or anything like that into space. IMO it was far wiser to sit back and listen, and wait, and try to get the drop on "whoever" before they get the drop on us...

we already have...

[NASAFanboy]

we already have...

Then we should stop.

Try our best to hide, until we have mastered space travel to an extent that we can protect ourselves. Some people will sya that this is cowardice, that we should step forward boldly and present ourselves to an alien species, but all I'll say is that will probably kill us.

[Camacha]

Then we should stop.

Try our best to hide, until we have mastered space travel to an extent that we can protect ourselves. Some people will sya that this is cowardice, that we should step forward boldly and present ourselves to an alien species, but all I'll say is that will probably kill us.

You seem to have a lot of fear for anything strange or foreign to you. Although caution is sensible, this seems to swing into cold war territory. Paranoia never helped anyone.

The mere fact that it takes quite a bit of effort to erradicate us and that we do not have anything they want will probably already keep us safe. And for staying quiet it is a bit too late, that too.

[NASAFanboy]

You seem to have a lot of fear for anything strange or foreign to you. Although caution is sensible, this seems to swing into cold war territory. Paranoia never helped anyone.

The mere fact that it takes quite a bit of effort to erradicate us and that we do not have anything they want will probably already keep us safe. And for staying quiet it is a bit too late, that too.

Three missiles heading toward us at 90% of the speed of light would wipe the Earth clean, without arousing suspicion from another alien race and without us ever detecting us in time to stop it (Not like we could, anyways).

[Stargate525]

Three missiles heading toward us at 90% of the speed of light would wipe the Earth clean, without arousing suspicion from another alien race and without us ever detecting us in time to stop it (Not like we could, anyways).

But you're leaving out the 'why.' Every genocide that we as a species have perpetrated has one thing in common; proximity. We've never marched across a continent to kill someone arbitrarily, much less star systems.

I mean, the nearest equivalent I can think of would be if Europeans found Native American poetry float in across the ocean, and their first thought was to build and send two massive warships with the express purpose of annihilating whatever they found.