Science Recovery Vs Science Transmission

[FREEFALL1984]

Hello fellow Kerbinauts, I have been playing KSP for a while now but I was unsure of this point and wanted to ask before experimenting on a fresh career mode. So here goes...

If I perform a new experiment on a new career without ever performing it before (for instance a ground sample on Minmus) and I recover the data, it gives me X points.

If I where to then play a completely new career and perform the exact same experiment but instead I choose to transmit the data, I would obviously receive far fewer points.

Also as everyone knows, performing the same experiment under the same circumstances it not very profitable and essentially "wastes" science modules.

So my question is, if I where to transmit the data on mission 1 and then go back and keep the data for recovery to Kerbin on mission 2, would I actually end up forfeiting points? Basically is it worth transmitting data or would it cost me in the long run?

My main aim is to gain science as quickly as possible in as few missions as possible without potentially "wasting" science.

[Red Iron Crown]

*snip*

My main aim is to gain science as quickly as possible in as few missions as possible without potentially "wasting" science.

If this is your goal, do all manned return flights. No transmission penalty, more science activities.

[adinfinitum]

I've got a question similar to Freefall's, so I guess I'll piggyback on this thread instead of starting a new one. Say I perform an experiment with an unmanned probe, and transmit the data back home. Can I later return with a Kerbal and pick up the data from that experiment and return it for the rest of the science points, or is that science that was lost to transmission lost forever?

[Claw]

You do not forfeit any science when you transmit on mission 1, then recover the same experiment on mission 2. You get less science during the return portion of the transmit/return option than on just a return only, but the total science is basically the same.

In the long run, that means you sent an extra mission. In the short run, you can gain science with (generally) less complex missions via transmission. This might be helpful for a science boost when you don't yet have the tech for a similar manned/return mission (depending on your personal objectives).

[Claw]

I've got a question similar to Freefall's, so I guess I'll piggyback on this thread instead of starting a new one. Say I perform an experiment with an unmanned probe, and transmit the data back home. Can I later return with a Kerbal and pick up the data from that experiment and return it for the rest of the science points, or is that science that was lost to transmission lost forever?

Yes, you can go back later (manned or unmanned) and retrieve the rest of the science on a return mission. Transmitting does not srop you from earning it later.

One note: transmission will render goo and sci jr experiments unusable until cleaned in a lab. (They are each single use.)

[adinfinitum]

Okay thank you. Sometimes I'm feeling lazy and don't want to send a manned return mission right away, and wanted to make sure I wasn't losing science. I figured I might send out a few probes and then go back and visit them with a manned mission to collect up everything and collect a few samples and whatnot. I'm tied up with building an interplanetary ship capable of pushing a couple hundred tons around the system, and I think I'll send out a few probes for a break from all the rendezvous and docking.

[Kerba Fett]

Although you get less science for a transmit than a return, if you do both you get more total science points.

For surface samples for instance you should take your first sample back to the pod and transmit it. Then go back out and get a second sample for return. You end up getting more total science points than just returning the first sample.

As for transmitting then returning an experiment module, it won't work. Once you transmit with a goo canister or science jr, the data is gone from them and theyre disabled. You can re-enable them with a mobile lab module, but the original data is still gone.

[Geschosskopf]

Although you get less science for a transmit than a return, if you do both you get more total science points.

For surface samples for instance you should take your first sample back to the pod and transmit it. Then go back out and get a second sample for return. You end up getting more total science points than just returning the first sample

This needs to be qualified a bit...

Each location (as in orbit position, biome, whatever) has a fixed total amount of points available for each type of experiment. When you run an experiment there, you obtain some of the points from this total amount. Crew and EVA reports always obtain the full total amount regardless of whether you transmit or return them, so can only be done once per location. All other experiments require multiple runs in the same location to get all the available points. Because you get less data with transmitting them, you need fewer runs if you return the data.

How much less does transmitting get? Well, each experiment differs in the fraction of points you lose for transmitting compared to returning. But there are 2 real killers on top of this. In the absence of a Mobile Lab, you can only transmit the same experiment from the same location 1 time per mission. And even if you keep going back to the same place and transmitting the same experiment over and over, you will never get more than 40% of the total points available.

Mobile Labs change this by 1) allowing same experiment to be transmitted multiple times per mission from the same location, and 2) adding 15% to the value of each transmission. That is, if you'd only get 20% of the returned value without the ML, you'd get 35% of the returned value with it. And this buff does allow you to exceed the base 40% cap to the extent the buff will put you over it, but thereafter you can't transmit that experiment anymore even with the ML.

The reusable instruments and surface samples typically need 2 returned runs to obtain all the available points for them in a given location, but the 1st run will get like 80-90% of the total available so you can get by with only doing them once. Goos and Materials need 4 returned runs to get all the points, although the 4th time is only like the last 5% or so and might not be worth the trouble.

Because of this, I build landers with 1 capsule (for crew reports, EVA reports, and surface sample), 1 each of all reusable instruments, and 4 each Goos and Materials. If I return this ship, I get all the available points for the crew and EVA reports, all available points for Goo and Materials, and 80-90% of the available points for the surface sample and reusable instruments. Thus, there's no need to ever go to that location again.

This is where having a Mobile Lab comes in handy. If you have a lander as described above, a Mobile Lab, and a sufficient pile of fuel, you can clean out an entire planet's pool of points in all its locations in 1 trip. Lander goes to Location A and comes back. Data goes in Mobile Lab, Mobile Lab rearms the Goos and Materials, lander refuels, and goes to Location B. Repeat until you're out of locations, then return the Mobile Lab.

[Starstrider42]

In the absence of a Mobile Lab, you can only transmit the same experiment from the same location 1 time per mission.

This statement only applies to the expendable experiments (goo and materials lab). For the reusable experiments, like the thermometer or gravioli detector, you can repeat acquisition-transmission until you get to the transmission % limit.

[Geschosskopf]

This statement only applies to the expendable experiments (goo and materials lab). For the reusable experiments, like the thermometer or gravioli detector, you can repeat acquisition-transmission until you get to the transmission % limit.

I'm pretty sure I'm correct there but since I don't transmit much, I'll take your word for it.

In general, transmitting is a waste of time and effort because you have to go back and return whatever's left above the transmission cap. Why make 2 (or more) trips to the same place when you can get everything with 1 return trip? The only good reasons to transmit are:

1. Crew and EVA reports, that get their full value when transmitted
   
2. When you have no intention of returning, like a probe lander to Eve or into Jool's atmosphere
   
3. To salvage what you can from a ship rendered unable to return due to some unexpected problem
   

So, every ship should have the ability to transmit to cover #3, and perhaps to do #1 to have that just in case the Hell Kraken suddenly attacks, but otherwise not use the antenna. Leave the transmitting to the kamikazes.

[ArmchairGravy]

What I'm doing these days is attaching 2 science "pods" that have all of the science gear I have unlocked to a lab, and turning the lab into a lander. Since the lab will store multiple copies of the same experiment, unlike command modules, I am transmitting processed data twice and returning two copies. This gives me immediate points, points when I return, and it fully drains all the available points from the biome in one visit. Yes, overkill is my middle name!

[kurja]

Something just occurred to me - if observing the goo or materials bay and transmitting, then returning the module, do we get anything for it upon return?

[Kasuha]

Something just occurred to me - if observing the goo or materials bay and transmitting, then returning the module, do we get anything for it upon return?

After you transmitted the measurement, the module doesn't hold any science information anymore. So no science after recovering unless you clean and refit it using lab module and record another measurement.

[SRV Ron]

Since so little is gained by transmitting experiments back to Kerbal, all missions, except those to Eve and Jool, should be recovered. Sending and recovering probes prior to sending Kerbals, is a good way to test designs and gain science points.

[Claw]

This statement only applies to the expendable experiments (goo and materials lab). For the reusable experiments, like the thermometer or gravioli detector, you can repeat acquisition-transmission until you get to the transmission % limit.

I'm pretty sure I'm correct there but since I don't transmit much, I'll take your word for it.

In general, transmitting is a waste of time and effort because you have to go back and return whatever's left above the transmission cap. Why make 2 (or more) trips to the same place when you can get everything with 1 return trip?

... but otherwise not use the antenna. Leave the transmitting to the kamikazes.

Starstrider is correct. For any experiment (ignoring goo and materials), you can record and transmit as many times under the same setting (biome + altitude) as you want regardless of a lab. You will eventually hit the science transmission cap, but even after that you can record and transmit (for no gain).

I would argue that yes, even while you don't maximize the science for a given experiment under a setting, "wasteful" is all in how you want to play.

I did the gravity experiment over all of Kerbin, Mun, and Minmus at high and low orbit, and then went into solar orbit, transmitting the science all the way. The whole craft at launch was around 9.5t and I received something around 1300 science. To return all that I would have needed a larger craft and something like 80 graviolis. Now I've unlocked a larger portion of the tech tree and can make more use of the next manned mission while not waiting for that science to filter in over the next however many missions.

And nobody said you HAVE to go back.

Different play styles, that's all I'm saying. It's not a waste if you enjoy it and it meets your goals.

[MarkyJ279]

My take on the transmission/return debate:

-Crew reports and EVAs have 100% return and 100% transmit science results. Whatever you do with them you will get all the science with one result set. I personally tend to transmit so I can start using the science before the craft returns and so it doesn't clutter my stored results.

-The best way to handle repeatable experiments (thermometer, gravioli, seismic, barometer, atmosphere and surface sample) if you have the time and the electric charge is to keep repeating the experiment and transmitting (boosting it with the science lab if you have one) and then once you hit the transmission cap, return the last set of data.

-Materials bay and mystery goo are single use by default. If you have a science lab to reset them then treat them like the repeatable experiments. If you don't then try and return them as you only get one shot per module with these results. You can transmit if you have no reasonable way of returning the data but you will not be able to reset without a lab so you'll only get a fraction of the science.

If you don't return experiments the science isn't lost exactly but you'll hit a cap where you need to start returning experiments to get the rest of the science.

Random tip: If you have a manned mission you don't need to return the science parts to get the data back. Kerbals on EVA can collect the data from science instruments (be warned this will render materials and goo unusable until they can be fixed with the lab) and store it in the pod. You can't store multiple copies of the same type in the same biome but you could record a set of readings from one biome and then collect a complete set from another. Do this and you only have to return the pod. Not essential but useful if your delta-V margins are very tight and you want to ditch as much mass as possible before your return. Just remember to move the data to the pod before jettisoning the parts, not after!

[problemecium]

I'm glad I read this thread. Since transmissions got nerfed, in my current Career save I only did recoveries because I was scared of losing potential science, but next time around (0.24) I'll be transmitting first and returning later.

[adinfinitum]

You do not forfeit any science when you transmit on mission 1, then recover the same experiment on mission 2. You get less science during the return portion of the transmit/return option than on just a return only, but the total science is basically the same.

In the long run, that means you sent an extra mission. In the short run, you can gain science with (generally) less complex missions via transmission. This might be helpful for a science boost when you don't yet have the tech for a similar manned/return mission (depending on your personal objectives).

After you transmitted the measurement, the module doesn't hold any science information anymore. So no science after recovering unless you clean and refit it using lab module and record another measurement.

So, can we collect the leftover or not?

[Starstrider42]

No. Once you've transmitted an experiment, the only way to get more science from the same part is to repeat the experiment (if you're allowed to).

[Geschosskopf]

So, can we collect the leftover or not?

Yes, but not with that ship. If Ship A doesn't return anything and doesn't have a Mobile Lab, it can only transmit that data once. So that's all you get for that mission. Then Ship B can go and collect the rest. Which is a waste of time. Just go once and bring it all home.

[Claw]

So, can we collect the leftover or not?

Actually, yes you can AND you can do it with the same ship if you desire. Even if you are recovering an experiment, you can run the experiment and transmit, then run it again and recover. You will have a small net gain than recovery alone. The only exceptions are the Mystery Goo and the Science Junior. Once you transmit or collect samples (via EVA), those modules are unusable unless cleaned by a lab.

Regardless of how you do it, transmitting science does not prevent you from collecting the leftovers. It does "empty" the data from that experiment. What Kasuha is saying is that if you run the experiment and transmit, you have to run it again before recovery or it will be blank. In that case, you would still get the transmit science, but nothing during recovery. . . Whenever you transmit OR collect samples (via EVA), the experiment module itself becomes blank. (Kasuha was also responding specifically about goo and sci jr, which must be cleaned to be used again.)

If you transmit, you are rewarded the science immediately. If you collect samples or return the whole module, you are rewarded with science when the mission is recovered on Kerbin.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Claw

[Claw]

Yes, but not with that ship. If Ship A doesn't return anything and doesn't have a Mobile Lab, it can only transmit that data once. So that's all you get for that mission. Then Ship B can go and collect the rest. Which is a waste of time. Just go once and bring it all home.

Returning science and being able to transmit are separate events. When you transmit it does not render that science module unusable, with the exception of Mystery Goo and Science Jr. You can use any of the other experiments repeatedly even under the same conditions and transmit. Nothing stops you, although you will be capped on the percentage of the total science that you can collect for the given biome/altitude. However, you can still use that module on other biomes/altitudes and gain science up the the transmission cap.

[adinfinitum]

So, just to make sure I'm understanding this right, after the data is transmitted, the experiment is blanked out, either leaving the science module ready to perform another experiment or inactive until cleaned, in the case of Mystery Goo and Science Jr.

So, let's say I send out a bunch of probes with Mystery Goo/Science Jr. They perform their experiments and transmit their data. If the above is right, then I will not be able to come back later with a manned ship, without a science bay, and collect all the experiments into the capsule and return the capsule for the percentage of science that wasn't transmitted. This means that I would have a loss of science if the probes transmitted vs. waiting until the ship arrives and collecting for full value.

I know that transmitting and sending a second mission is a "waste of time", but if I didn't have a tech to send a return mission this could potentially get the science to unlock that tech, and then I'd be able to send a manned mission to pick up that percentage of science that I missed out on, without having to send a ship with multiple science modules or a science bay to each of those locations. Even if I had the tech, sometimes I might just not feel like designing a manned return mission right away, and sending probes would be quick and easy. But if it works like you guys are saying, then this method wouldn't work.

[Dr. Jet]

My Best advice is to install CustomBiomes mod. You'll get a lot more fun fully exploring a same stellar body... and recover a lot more science too... even without returning probes.

[Claw]

So, just to make sure I'm understanding this right, after the data is transmitted, the experiment is blanked out, either leaving the science module ready to perform another experiment or inactive until cleaned, in the case of Mystery Goo and Science Jr.

Yes

So, let's say I send out a bunch of probes with Mystery Goo/Science Jr. They perform their experiments and transmit their data. If the above is right, then I will not be able to come back later with a manned ship, without a science bay, and collect all the experiments into the capsule and return the capsule for the percentage of science that wasn't transmitted. This means that I would have a loss of science if the probes transmitted vs. waiting until the ship arrives and collecting for full value.

Okay, so you sent out your goo experiment probe A, performed it, and transmit the results. To keep it simple, you cannot come back with kerbals later to probe A to collect a sample from the goo module that transmitted (the module is spent). I actually don't know if you can clean it because I haven't done it that way (I think you can?).

Regardless, you CAN come back later with goo experiment probe B, perform it, and return to Kerbin. OR you can come back later with a manned goo experiment mission C, perform it, and collect by doing one of: via EVA and take to Kerbin, return the goo module to Kerbin, or process in lab. Doing probe A does not stop you from collecting the rest of the science with probe B or mission C

I know that transmitting and sending a second mission is a "waste of time", but if I didn't have a tech to send a return mission this could potentially get the science to unlock that tech, and then I'd be able to send a manned mission to pick up that percentage of science that I missed out on, without having to send a ship with multiple science modules or a science bay to each of those locations. Even if I had the tech, sometimes I might just not feel like designing a manned return mission right away, and sending probes would be quick and easy.

Yes, this is when transmitting is handy.

But if it works like you guys are saying, then this method wouldn't work.

What you said above will work. Maybe the confusion here is that you don't need to go collect your first probe to "pick up that percentage of science you missed out on."

Maybe I'll try saying it this way. I have not yet found a way in KSP to perform an experiment that ever prevents you from doing that same experiment again. Sure, you might need another module (for goo and jr), but you can perform an unlimited number of goo missions (or any experiment) and transmit/recover however you wish. You do not have to go back to the first goo module and "collect" it, and if you do it will be "empty" of science anyway. But you can send a second goo, perform, and recover to get the rest of the science. Transmitting can only get a certain amount of the science available. It does NOT mean the rest of the science points are forever lost.

If you are concerned about "losing" science, perhaps just try it in game. Make a copy of your save game first if you want. Then try out the combo transmit/recovery scenario you are concerned about.

EDIT: Or maybe I'm over complicating this.

If you transmitted a probe's goo/sci jr data, you cannot come back later via EVA to collect from that same goo/sci jr module. You would have to clean it or bring another.

You could perform the other experiment types with a probe and transmit, then come back manned later, have the probe do the experiments again, and collect via EVA because they aren't spent. That might be more complex than bringing new modules (because they are so small), but you can do it.

Edited March 7, 2014 by Claw