A couple questions about SCIENCE

[zarakon]

I looked around a bit, but none of the guides or tutorials or the wiki really got into enough detail to understand a couple of things.

1.

When I return a materials study or surface sample, I don't get the full value. Why not? What do I have to do to get the full green bar?

2.

How exactly does storing and transferring results between a command pod and a Kerbal work? If I have a Mun lander capable of landing in several biomes, is there a way to actually return all of those samples and reports with just one pod, or do I need to add another pod for each biome I want to visit? If I have one thermometer and one command pod, does that mean I can return up to two biome results, or can I get more? Can a Kerbal on a chair or ladder return more results than one in a pod?

3.

If I use the science lab to repeatedly process, transmit, and reset an experiment (such as goo or materials), what percentage of the total science value can I end up with? If it's less than 100% can I still get the rest of the value by returning the same results afterward, or does transmitting screw me over in the long run?

Edited March 6, 2014 by zarakon

[Geschosskopf]

1.When I return a materials study or surface sample, I don't get the full value. Why not? What do I have to do to get the full green bar?

Because location X has a total of Y points available for a given experiment to gather, but a single run of the experiment can only gather Z points and Z < Y. IOW, 1 run of the experiment can't learn all there is to know. You have to repeat the experiment there to get all the points. For Materials, that takes returning 4 samples, although 3 will work close enough. So put 3 or 4 Materials on your lander, run them all in the same place, and return the lot.

2. How exactly does storing and transferring results between a command pod and a Kerbal work? If I have a Mun lander capable of landing in several biomes, is there a way to actually return all of those samples and reports with just one pod, or do I need to add another pod for each biome I want to visit? If I have one thermometer and one command pod, does that mean I can return up to two biome results, or can I get more? Can a Kerbal on a chair or ladder return more results than one in a pod?

The way to return all data from all biomes in 1 trip is to use the Mobile Science Lab. First off, as noted above you need 4 copies of Goo and Material experiments from the same biome to get all the points. Capsules can only hold 1 of each, but the MSL can hold them all. Second, the MSL allows you to rearm the Goos and Materials after use. If you can't do that, then you can only use them once, whether you transmit or return them. So anyway, you have the MSL which will be what actually lands on Kerbin with all the data in it. You have a lander with 4x Goos, 4x Materials, and 1x everything else. The lander goes to Biome A, gets everything, comes back to the lab. You put all the data in the MSL, you rearm the Goos and Materials, then send the lander to Biome B. Repeat until you run out of lander fuel, then land the MSL and profit. Repeat as necessary until all biomes have been looted.

As to how you physically move data around, you EVA the Kerbal, have him get right next to the experiment, and right-click on the experiment. One of the options on the menu will be "take data", or "download data", or something similar (varies with experiment). The Kerbal now has the data in his pocket. When he enters any pod, the data gets stored in the pod. But you can also EVA from the pod, right-click on the pod, and take the data back out of it. This is how you move surface samples from the lander to the MSL.

Kerbals can only have 1x of any type of data in their pockets at once. So if you have 4x Goos, you have to make 4x EVA trips to collect all the data.

NOTE: it helps to put a short ladder section next to or even on the experiment. Makes it easier to be sure you're close enough to grab the data.

3. If I use the science lab to repeatedly process, transmit, and reset an experiment (such as goo or materials), what percentage of the total science value can I end up with? If it's less than 100% can I still get the rest of the value by returning the same results afterward, or does transmitting screw me over in the long run?

Transmitting data will get you only 40% of the total points available for that experiment in that biome. You have to return samples to get the remaining 60% of the points. If you process with the MSL before transmitting, the buff from the MSL will sometimes let you exceed the 40% cap by a little, but you still can't get it all.

Transmitting is thus a total waste of time, because it means you have to make a 2nd trip to the same place. This is silly when you can get all the points in 1 trip with 4x Material, 4x Goo, and 1x everything else.

Transmitting should only be done for:

1. Crew reports and EVA reports, which lose no value due to transmission
   
2. Ships not intended to return, like Eve lander probes
   
3. Disabled ships that can't come home for some reason.
   

[cantab]

For question 1, you have to repeat the experiment! For most experiments four or five runs should be enough to get it all.

Also, I think it's been mentioned that transmitting can never permanently "lose" science, you can always get the rest of the points by returning the results.

[capi3101]

1. Do it about four times each. Better still, take four Sci Jrs. with you when you go. Geschosskopf's got a thread about this that I really need to add to my collection of hot-links...

Since he ninja'd me I'm surprised he didn't link it himself...

2. You can keep all the samples and EVA reports in one pod. Crew reports (ones from inside the pod) are a different story. Same goes for experiments as a rule; most of them can only store the data from a single run. You can either transmit that away and get another sample (generally bad idea) or just carry around more experiments.

3. Transmitting screws you over in the long run; there's a cap of about 40% of the total possible value that you can get from transmission, and that's assuming you carry around multiple instances of the same instruments (so ultimately you either have to return an experiment from there anyway, or settle for 40%). Now, for places like the surface of Eve (where return is impossible or undesirable), its better to transmit than get nothing. Everywhere else, you want to try to go home with your science.

[Kryxal]

You can apparently store multiple crew reports, you just have to pull them out and store them again before doing the next one.

Oh, and I wouldn't call return from Eve impossible, just VERY difficult...

[zarakon]

Thanks for the answers, I think I've got most of it now

There's one last thing about transmitting that isn't clear.

Example:

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say an experiment gives 25 for returning it the first time, and a total of 30 after returning it several times. Maybe it gives just 3 for the second return. Transmitting it the first time gives 10.

If I transmit once then return once, what do I end up with? The transmit gives 10, but does that permanently rob me of 15 points? Does the return then give only 3? Or would the return give something in between like 18, and I would still be eventually able to get the full 30?

[Wooks]

Thanks for the answers, I think I've got most of it now

There's one last thing about transmitting that isn't clear.

Example:

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say an experiment gives 25 for returning it the first time, and a total of 30 after returning it several times. Maybe it gives just 3 for the second return. Transmitting it the first time gives 10.

If I transmit once then return once, what do I end up with? The transmit gives 10, but does that permanently rob me of 15 points? Does the return then give only 3? Or would the return give something in between like 18, and I would still be eventually able to get the full 30?

You will always be able to get all the points for any given biome, transmitting does not "rob" or lose points, is just a penalty for that given mission. If you later go to the same biome with a different mission and repeat the experiment enough times, you will get all the science points there is to achieve there from that experiment and biome.

[Claw]

Thanks for the answers, I think I've got most of it now

There's one last thing about transmitting that isn't clear.

Example:

I don't know the exact numbers, but let's say an experiment gives 25 for returning it the first time, and a total of 30 after returning it several times. Maybe it gives just 3 for the second return. Transmitting it the first time gives 10.

If I transmit once then return once, what do I end up with? The transmit gives 10, but does that permanently rob me of 15 points? Does the return then give only 3? Or would the return give something in between like 18, and I would still be eventually able to get the full 30?

No, it does not rob you of being able to get all the points. Using your example of a given experiment worth 30 points. If you do that experiment and transmit the science, you would get the 10 points. Going back later and doing the experiment again, then returning it, you would have a total gain of science over 25, but not quite 30. So it would be a gain of something like your 18, and yes, you could still eventually get 30 points total.

You will always be able to get all the points for any given biome, transmitting does not "rob" or lose points, is just a penalty for that given mission. If you later go to the same biome with a different mission and repeat the experiment enough times, you will get all the science points there is to achieve there from that experiment and biome.

This is true if you also mean to say that you return the science during later missions. If you go back on a subsequent mission and still only transmit, the science gain will be very low (if not zero).

Personally, I don't think transmitting is a waste of time or screws you in the long run. I won't really post all my rationale because I don't want to start a debate. If it gets you your goal, then great. If it doesn't, then skip it. There is no requirement to go back to a biome and do that experiment again just to get the science. Go back if you want, don't if you don't care. But I would also say not to instantly dismiss transmitting science just because it "seems wasteful."

Edited March 7, 2014 by Claw