B9 5.0 pre-release (with download)

[Murph]

I'm having this issue on a 65 tonne plane, I'm positive my wheels are aligned and I don't think it's a weight issue but it wobbles off course on take off, and when I do get off it veers away on landing too. And even the slightest tap on the steering control rolls the plane.

Yeah, that's the problem. I do believe that it's at least partly related to weight per wheel, but adding wheels isn't a viable solution for seriously heavy planes (the number of wheels would end up ridiculous, and into massive lag territory between the physics collision calcs and the number of parts once you include 2 or 3 struts per wheel set).

P.S. I'd like to renew my request for the FSwheelAlignment module to be added to the wheels by default. I didn't get a reply before so I'm not sure if it got seen at the bottom of the page.

Here's an interim solution for you. Create GameData/B9_Utility_Landing_Gear.cfg (you can actually call it whatever you like, as long as it's in GameData and something.cfg), with the following content:

@PART[B9_Utility_Landing_Gear_*]:HAS[@MODULE[FSwheel]]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheelAlignment
	}
}

That's a quick ModuleManager config patch which will add it to all the B9 gear that uses the FSwheel module. Press F2 to toggle the alignment indicators in the SPH.

[NathanKell]

Here's a more universal solution:

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[FSwheel],!MODULE[FSwheelAlignment]]:Final
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheelAlignment
	}
}
@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleLandingGear],!MODULE[FSwheelAlignment]]:Final
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheelAlignment
	}
}

[Alshain]

Yeah, that's the problem. I do believe that it's at least partly related to weight per wheel, but adding wheels isn't a viable solution for seriously heavy planes (the number of wheels would end up ridiculous, and into massive lag territory between the physics collision calcs and the number of parts once you include 2 or 3 struts per wheel set).

I don't think adding wheels works, I added up to 5 wheels, the double tired ones and it still happened. Of course even if it didn't I wouldn't have been able to lift due to the position, but that wasn't the test.

Thanks for the MM scripts, both of you.

EDIT: Think I just found a solution to the ridiculously over-steering. There is a tweakable called Steering Mul... I don't know what it stands for but changing it from 45 to around 10 seems to make taxiing feel right. That's one problem down but it still veers off the runway, and the Wheel alignment indicators do in fact indicate perfection.

Edited August 26, 2014 by Alshain

[irishmanerrant]

For some reason, whenever I install this, I crash immediately upon trying to enter either the VAB, SPH, or the Research building. Is this a common bug?

[isaiah2213]

The cargo bays wont open or close;.;

[Nsomnia]

Ive found unless you build a quad wheel setup a tricycle or taildragger setup needs to be left alone under throttle and use yaw controls to steer. Also make sure your control areas are marked only for what they are used for in the context menu ie. verticle tail for yaw horizontal control surfaces for roll and 1 set for pitch. and use q/e to steer with the wheel motor on while taxiing. I think this is a plane design issue and not b9 issue. Ive had some go great and some fly off the runway on takeoff. Also you dont need to travel very fast to takeoff, I try to set it up so on idle it has a slight pitch up angle of attack so it takes off on its own and i really shouldnt have to steer it once im on 90 degree heading

- - - Updated - - -

For some reason, whenever I install this, I crash immediately upon trying to enter either the VAB, SPH, or the Research building. Is this a common bug?

Try on a fresh install with only the folders from B9 in Gamedata except depreciated and ships

[blowfish]

Forgot to mention earlier - there seems to be a bug where the radial docking port's collider will push fuselage parts if it's spanning more than one. Screenshot.

It won't do this initially, but will once the docking shield has been triggered. With larger (HL) parts, I've seen instances where the docking port itself gets shoved out of the way.

Of course, this is avoidable by placing the docking port firmly on only one part, which is made easier by the fact the new 6m S2 and HL parts , but I just thought I'd mention it in case it's fixable.

For some reason, whenever I install this, I crash immediately upon trying to enter either the VAB, SPH, or the Research building. Is this a common bug?

I've experienced that before, but I doubt it has anything to do with this mod. Try looking in the output_log.txt generated from the crash. You're not using the x64 version of the game, are you?

The cargo bays wont open or close;.;

Evidently something's installed wrong. Try reinstalling this mod and deactivating any others that might be conflicting.

[Murph]

Ive found unless you build a quad wheel setup a tricycle or taildragger setup needs to be left alone under throttle and use yaw controls to steer. Also make sure your control areas are marked only for what they are used for in the context menu ie. verticle tail for yaw horizontal control surfaces for roll and 1 set for pitch. and use q/e to steer with the wheel motor on while taxiing. I think this is a plane design issue and not b9 issue. Ive had some go great and some fly off the runway on takeoff. Also you dont need to travel very fast to takeoff, I try to set it up so on idle it has a slight pitch up angle of attack so it takes off on its own and i really shouldnt have to steer it once im on 90 degree heading

I suggest that you try building a 250t+ heavy fuel/cargo delivery SSTO plane, then you'll see how wrong you are above. The gear wobble randomly kicks in, often without any control input, and way below the 100m/s+ that you'll need for takeoff. That's without going for a crazy excess of wing area or engine thrust. You also need most of the length of the (too short, really) runway, and it's rare for the plane to reliably stay on the centre line for that length of takeoff run, without some gentle corrective input. The problem hits with pretty much any gear setup, tricycle, quad, 16 main wheels plus nose gear, etc. The planes in question take off, ascend, reach orbit, descend, cruise, generally fly around, and land without issue, on the approx 1 in 10 occasion where the wheels don't dance around and cause a crash or abort on the takeoff run. Control surfaces are appropriately setup for yaw, pitch, and roll.

It's not a plane design issue, it's either a generic Unity wheels issue, or a need for some adjustment to the part parameters, or a bit of both. I do firmly believe that quite a lot of the problem comes from the way that Unity does wheels, but my gut tells me that there should be some way to sufficiently stiffen the connection of the wheel module to the craft body or wing (without a seriously crazy number of struts per wheel), or that there may be some gain from adjusting the wheel friction numbers.

[Nsomnia]

Ive read there is alot of problems with wheels in Unity (hell Unity in general we are already pushing this game engine to the extreme). Ive never made a spaceplane more than 100t or so so I cant say for sure but with part angle display and setting gear to perfect 90 degreees and strutting if it bends ive had little issue. 250t is huge, are you using HL content? b9 may have better wheel dynamics in final release. all we can do is wait.

[NQMT]

Are there any known compatibility issues?

[Dal]

Thank you for helping me build this superb fleet base just in time for the new interstellar release!

[Murph]

Ive read there is alot of problems with wheels in Unity (hell Unity in general we are already pushing this game engine to the extreme). Ive never made a spaceplane more than 100t or so so I cant say for sure but with part angle display and setting gear to perfect 90 degreees and strutting if it bends ive had little issue. 250t is huge, are you using HL content? b9 may have better wheel dynamics in final release. all we can do is wait.

Yup, 250t is fairly huge, it's actually getting on for 200t dry, and I think it's something like 350t on max fuel load (can't remember right now). I just said 250t as a nice round number to give the idea of what I mean by "heavy". The gear is perfectly aligned, according to FSwheelAlignment, and heavily strutted.

S2 Wide with a giant delta-ish main wing, small delta hybrid canard+fore-wing, and 4 SABRE Ms. The main wing is as wide as the runway, and it's a little longer than it is wide. Currently on 8 HDG2-L main gear, HDG2-L nose gear, 4 HDG2 wing protection gear (B52-style-ish), and HDG2+HDG1 tail protection gear (Concorde-style-ish) Intended purpose is to refuel a 14400 Kerbodyne tank or several Jumbo 64s in LKO. Cost approx 350k.

I'm probably going to build roughly the same thing in HL next.

The good news, is that I may have improved the HDG2s a bit, but am still trying to work out which of several parameter changes is giving best results.

[Arron Rift]

Hey guys, I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but have you considered breaking B9 into multiple sub-packs? Like a HL fuselage pack, and engine pack, etc? make it easier for people who don't need ALL the parts, or don't want to stray too far from the stock.

Just food for thought.

[stephm]

hi !

They are no bug with unity wheelcollider, it's just a question a good setup parameter !!

here an example with the new B9_Utility_Landing_Gear_HDG1A

MODULE

{

name = FSwheel

wheelColliderName = wheelCollider

boundsCollider = Bounds

wheelMeshName = Wheel

suspensionParentName = suspensionParent

animationName = landing_gear_hdg3_retract

disableColliderWhenRetracted = True

disableColliderWhenRetracting = True

disableColliderAtAnimTime = 0.75

hasMotor = false

//motorEnabled = false

//motorTorque = 1

//nerfNegativeTorque = 1

//maxSpeed = 5

//resourceConsumptionRate = 0.4

//resourceName = ElectricCharge

overrideModelFrictionValues = True

forwardsStiffness = 0.2

forwardsExtremumSlip = 1.0

forwardsExtremumValue = 4000.0

forwardsAsymptoteSlip = 2.0

forwardsAsymptoteValue = 2000.0

sidewaysStiffness = 0.05 //for tire friction

sidewaysExtremumSlip = 1.0

sidewaysExtremumValue = 2000.0

sidewaysAsymptoteSlip = 2.0

sidewaysAsymptoteValue = 1000.0

wheelColliderRadius = 0.115

overrideSuspensionDistance = true

wheelColliderSuspensionDistance = 0.15

overrideModelSpringValues = True

suspensionSpring = 20 // for 20t aircraft

suspensionDamper = 0.2

suspensionTargetPosition = -0.005

rotationAdjustment = 3.5

deployedDrag = 0.4

brakeEmissiveObjectName = base_door_front1_mesh

onEmissiveColor = 1, 0.3, 0

offEmissiveColor = 0, 0, 0

deployingEmissiveColor = 0.1, 0.55, 1.0

disabledEmissiveColor = 0, 0, 0

useCustomParticleFX = True

smokeFXtextureName = B9_Aerospace/FX/FS/particle

startRetractEffect = gearRetract

startDeployEffect = gearRetract

}

MODULE

{

name = FSpartTurner

steerMultiplier = 10

targetPartObject = leg_lower1

targetPartObject2 = wheelCollider

rotationDirectionX = 0

rotationDirectionY = 1

rotationDirectionZ = 0

defaultRotationX = 0

defaultRotationY = 0

defaultRotationZ = 0

steeringEnabled = False

reversedInput = False

steerMaxSpeed = 25

speedAdjustedSteering = True

speedAdjustedSteeringMinimumMultiplier = 0.01

useWheelSteeringAxis = true

}

tested on Aeris4 (as front gear) and it's work very well love the sound and effect !!!, you have to lock steer for lift off to keep plane straight !

Based on this 20 t gear, for bigger gear you have to tweak the frictions based on Spring force !!

And every thing work !

steph

[Comrade Kerbinski]

Plz, can you add to a mod large landing gears (HUGE)?

[K3-Chris]

Regarding landing gear: it's a unity limitation, making the wheels more firmly attached to the vessel makes the situation worse, because the wheels have enough traction to make you flip over if you start going sideways in that configuration, the landing gear "buckling" is intended, instead of inducing a roll cased by the lower part of your plane getting pushed sideways hard the gear looses traction.

Yes you can tweak the parameters to make them work better on a plane to plane basis but that's not really an option for the base configuration, if we set the landing gear for a 20t craft they won't really work for a 500t craft.

We've been over this before, there is no optimal solution, just different workarounds all with problems of their own.

You don't really need to use the long landing gear anyway, design your planes to not require them, I generally speaking don't use them at all even on 500t~ planes, make the "neutral" angle of the plane or your wings angled upwards when sitting "level" on the runway to lift off without the need for a tilt, or learn to lift off with very little tilt. Or design the rear of your plane like a C130, behind rear gear and CoM is a tail that's raised enough to give a quite steep angle.

Can obviously also use the shorter gear attached to something lower, doesn't have to be as crude as the stock girder solution, the radial fuel tanks of the HL system is a good way to get lower landing gear, attach the tanks low on the fuselage.

[Murph]

Regarding landing gear: it's a unity limitation, making the wheels more firmly attached to the vessel makes the situation worse, because the wheels have enough traction to make you flip over if you start going sideways in that configuration, the landing gear "buckling" is intended, instead of inducing a roll cased by the lower part of your plane getting pushed sideways hard the gear looses traction.

I'm looking at the params to see if it would be possible for them to be very firmly attached, but for the sideways wheel friction to be low enough to provide a better balance. Right now, they suffer from the duct-tape-and-chewing-gum construction problem. The problem hits me equally with both the HDG2 and HDG2-L, the extra height isn't really making it worse, but does make the plane easier to land.

If it's truly impossible to setup the HDG set with more reasonable params for heavy craft while keeping them usable on lighter craft, I propose a SHDG set (super heavy) be cloned from them, with params more suited to super heavies. Right now, B9 has all the bits to produce some excellent super heavies which can do very useful SSTO work, but it's sheer hell getting them to reliably roll down the runway. Either that, or a LDG set for light duty.

[GeckoOBac]

Yes you can tweak the parameters to make them work better on a plane to plane basis but that's not really an option for the base configuration, if we set the landing gear for a 20t craft they won't really work for a 500t craft.

Now just an idea that sprung to mind, and it's probably stupid but... If modifying just that one parameter on a craft by craft basis allows for better performance... Wouldn't it be possible to input it in as a "tweakable" at runtime? Adjusting suspension stiffness to adjust for load is something we actually do in RL, no?

[K3-Chris]

Right now, B9 has all the bits to produce some excellent super heavies which can do very useful SSTO work, but it's sheer hell getting them to reliably roll down the runway. Either that, or a LDG set for light duty.

I don't agree, I fly heavy SSTOs all the time with no landing gear problems, you can design around it. Add more landing gear to make one buckling less of an issue, and to distribute the load, and read my previous post, there is a very long list of ways to work around their limitations.

Now just an idea that sprung to mind, and it's probably stupid but... If modifying just that one parameter on a craft by craft basis allows for better performance... Wouldn't it be possible to input it in as a "tweakable" at runtime? Adjusting suspension stiffness to adjust for load is something we actually do in RL, no?

That's a question for Snjo http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/24551-Firespitter-propeller-plane-and-helicopter-parts-v5-6-2-%28October-17th%29-for-KSP-0-22

Edited August 26, 2014 by K3|Chris

[requimrar]

Fantastic, now that this is released my life will be gone (not that I had one anyway)

One small request though, is it possible perhaps to group the parts (in GameData/B9/Parts/*) by size? I for one (honestly) don't care for the new HX parts, or for the panel thingies, so I usually delete them from my folder. But since there are a lot of HX parts, perhaps it would be better to sort them somehow?

Also, I assume the S2 cockpit will be getting a makeover in the '5.1' release?

[K3-Chris]

One small request though, is it possible perhaps to group the parts (in GameData/B9/Parts/*) by size? I for one (honestly) don't care for the new HX parts, or for the panel thingies, so I usually delete them from my folder. But since there are a lot of HX parts, perhaps it would be better to sort them somehow?

Not impossible but would be a lot of work due to the paths of assets being in the .cfg files, though doesn't most of the HX stuff live in "B9_Aerospace\Parts\Structure_HX" ?

Also, I assume the S2 cockpit will be getting a makeover in the '5.1' release?

Yes, it and the Mk2 are due for forwardvisibilityectomies.

[FreakyHydra]

for some reason i crash every time i load a space plane

i have a freshly installed game with only B9 installed with the rest of the stuff that followed the zip

here is the output log

http://puu.sh/b8p3H/a7a940f4c4.txt

the crash log was empty

[Donziboy2]

I don't agree, I fly heavy SSTOs all the time with no landing gear problems, you can design around it. Add more landing gear to make one buckling less of an issue, and to distribute the load, and read my previous post, there is a very long list of ways to work around their limitations.

Agreed, I have not had very many issues with B9 gear buckling even with super heavy SSTO's, one important thing to do is to spread the gear out, I actually put my gear on the wings and have the wings as low to the fuselage as I can get them. I would like to see taller gear, hanging a fuel tank below the wing to raise your landing height is no fun and makes for interesting balance issues.

[Murph]

I don't agree, I fly heavy SSTOs all the time with no landing gear problems, you can design around it. Add more landing gear to make one buckling less of an issue, and to distribute the load, and read my previous post, there is a very long list of ways to work around their limitations.

I don't think that compromising a preferred design because the available gear is basically inadequate for the job is a very good approach to design. The buckling causes problems even when you have a large number of units, I've had it cause a crash on takeoff roll of approx 250-300t spread over 32 HDG2s (I'd progressively worked up from 8, then 16, then 24, in a parallel line just behind CoM, trying the "spread the load" approach to it), with around half of them dancing a jig instead of serving their correct purpose, without any reasonable justification for them starting to collapse. It's very frustrating, and frankly the weak link in the B9 chain.

Yes, the current gear can be made to work, but it takes relatively extreme effort, is the cause of considerable frustration, and causes needless design compromise. The alternative could be a relatively simple ModuleManager config to clone some variants with more appropriate parameters for the different scenarios out there.

[K3-Chris]

Yes, the current gear can be made to work, but it takes relatively extreme effort, is the cause of considerable frustration, and causes needless design compromise.

I don't agree that it's that bad, it's a minor annoyance at best, design for it, don't fight it.

Multiple gear, don't go too fast, try to get lift before liftoff, the less force you put on the wheels the less of an issue you'll have, if your neutral position is nose angled down you're putting even more force on the gear.

The alternative could be a relatively simple ModuleManager config to clone some variants with more appropriate parameters for the different scenarios out there.

I highly doubt it's that simple, and if you present people with that many landing gear variants people will be confused, If your landing gear is correctly configured for a full plane, what happens when you land when empty? and again, this isn't something we can influence really, we're using the FireSpitter plugin for the landing gear, which is a layer on top of the stock landing gear, which is an implementation of the unity wheel code. Which is garbage. We've been banging our heads against a wall on this for months now, we're not happy with the current situation but it isn't like this out of negligence or complacency, inferring that it is is hurtful.

If there was a quick and simple fix we would have implemented it already.