Fly a plane using only capsule torque and thrust vectoring!

[Keldaria]

No worries, I've all the sudden seem to have forgotten how to land and have botched about 8 sortie's tonight. However my piloting skills aside I'm quite happy with the enhanced performance of the Dayra Falcon Mk2 and Mk2 VTOL. They both have their strengths, the Mk2 seems to have a much longer range than the Mk2 VTOL which seems to have about the same range as the Mk1 if it doesn't use its VTOL capabilities often but that should probably be expected since it has to carry 2 extra engines and oxidizer around.

I'm going to try and complete the sortie I have planned for each version again tomorrow night and hopefully be successful, but will post plenty of pictures regardless, even if it is of my fireballs if I fail again... Poor Jeb

But then I lose the Conservationist award. I can't swap 3 parts for the gears.

Right, VTOL gives 250 points and Conservationist only 50 points. But I can't get bot awards at the same time. Unsatisfying.

How many parts are you currently using 14? meaning you have 1 spare? think I could snag the craft file to experiment?

Edited April 9, 2014 by Keldaria

[Darren9]

I went back to hang-gliding while wondering just what I could get away with on the next point scoring attempt. Surprisingly controllable at low speed and more fun to fly than anything else I've made. Officially made 150 points with it

[*Aqua*]

How many parts are you currently using 14? meaning you have 1 spare? think I could snag the craft file to experiment?

Both planes I used have 14 parts each. The rules says 'Use under 15 parts.', so 14 parts is the max you can have for the Conservationist award.

Sure, you can have them. Jet engines and intakes are bound to action group 1, rocket engines are bound to action group 2. Start the flight by activating the jet engine by right-click -> activate.

http://netload.in/dateiYrXapEGS0r/SPH.zip.htm (6 kB)

(stupid hoster but didn't found a better one without user registration)

Maybe you can switch one ant rocket for another part. The thrust is so low the SAS should be able to handle it, but electricity can be can be a concern.

@Darren9

Nice! How many parts did you use? I count 2 solar panels, 2 hinges, 3 'gears', and what else?

Also what mods gives you glider wings?

[Darren9]

^ Thanks, there's 29 parts in there (six struts), the wings (and tiny jet, and the struts are UAV wings) are from Taverio-s-Pizza-and-Aerospace, I only grabbed the additional parts, not the stock modifications. Firespitter (jerry cans) and RollKage is the rest. I just found Prof Kerbenstein as well, has some small wood and sticks, now I have a true micro-lite.

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[*Aqua*]

Thanks for the fast reply. I will look into that. Prof Kerbstein is really funny. ^^

[Brandano]

As far as I know ANT engines don't produce electricity, though

[*Aqua*]

You are right.

You can switch SAS off when having symmetric thrust. I never fell below 66% because of that. Asymmetric thrust will require active SAS all the time, so I assume electricity will be an issue.

[Keldaria]

Both planes I used have 14 parts each. The rules says 'Use under 15 parts.', so 14 parts is the max you can have for the Conservationist award.

Sure, you can have them. Jet engines and intakes are bound to action group 1, rocket engines are bound to action group 2. Start the flight by activating the jet engine by right-click -> activate.

http://netload.in/dateiYrXapEGS0r/SPH.zip.htm (6 kB)

(stupid hoster but didn't found a better one without user registration)

Maybe you can switch one ant rocket for another part. The thrust is so low the SAS should be able to handle it, but electricity can be can be a concern.

As far as I know ANT engines don't produce electricity, though

You are right.

You can switch SAS off when having symmetric thrust. I never fell below 66% because of that. Asymmetric thrust will require active SAS all the time, so I assume electricity will be an issue.

I have a couple ideas that I will tinker with on my lunch break in 15 mins... I want to see this work for you because technically, as is, you don't technically qualify because the first and last rule of the challenge states that you need to be able to takeoff like a plane. I would recommend you drop the rockets entirely and abandon SSTO in favor of Fly High and Magellan but I don't know if you'd have the fuel to run the same route and VTOL as needed. Thats one of the challenges my design is facing, the more I VTOL the less places I can visit since I don't go orbital.

[Brandano]

You can place a single engine under the fuselage and aim it towards the center of mass. And use the wing tips and a single landing leg to VTO, with a lot of care.

I see that the ANT engines have been seriously buffed up in 23.5

[*Aqua*]

You can place a single engine under the fuselage and aim it towards the center of mass.

I tried that. VTOL will only be stable when the tanks are full or almost full. After burning half of it, the CoM will be shifted to much. A stable VTOL starting/landing will then be impossible. It won't be a VTOL anymore which contradict the rules.

Usually you use control surfaces or way more parts to react on the CoM shift, but with only 14 parts it's impossible. I guess a part limit of 30 will be enough.

I'll wait for PoliticallyCorrectLobster's opinion on this matter. He maybe change the rules.

Edited April 9, 2014 by *Aqua*

[Brandano]

No, I mean, keep your design as it is, as a tail sitter, just shifting the rear wings back and the front wings forward. And place the ant engine so that it is aimed at the CG, since you only really need it when you are out of the atmosphere

[*Aqua*]

Ah, now I understand! Sorry, sometimes it's difficult for me to understand English sentences.

Hm... the resulting aircraft will be very difficult to land. Jet engines don't react fast to the throttle control and speeds over 10 m/s will cause a crash. I messed up several times on each landing. But it's a good idea!

[Keldaria]

Try this on for size, I make no claims as I was never very good at VTOL designs but I've simplified what I could to save enough parts and made a few adjustments to include a standard set of landing gear and and used the back 2 gear to double for VTOL support. I was able to keep your ant engines in place with this design and keep to 14 parts. I've also increased fuel and unfortunately weight, but a good deal of that comes from the landing gear itself because each one is .5t vs the .1t of the 2 struts I was able to strip. Your CoM should also be slightly more stable because of the single tank design but that improvement was probably mitigated by the extra weight in rear landing gear vs front (which is why the front landing gear is placed as far forward as possible).

I've tested it, it stands up straight for VTOL just fine and lays down horizontally for a standard style of takeoff/landing. I haven't done any rigorous testing however just a simple takeoff in each form to ensure I got the CoM right, and I did do a quick VTOL landing (straight up then straight down) and it worked fine but it is still a jet and you'll need to baby the throttle when your bringing it in VTOL style a little more. VTOL landings might become more problematic when you get low on fuel, mostly because the landing gear weighing so much on the one side of the plan and not having spare parts to slap on to counter that force. You might consider dropping one of the ants in favor of something to balance that out if it becomes too problematic then doing as brandano said and pointing the remaining ant to the CoM to counteract the spinning force.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/zy8yggmf32ygqhd/Eierlegende%20Wollmilchsau%20v3.craft

Make sure you check the action groups and gear settings before you fly, I didn't spend a great deal of time setting any one thing up. I think I set Action group 1 for ants, 2 for the VTOL gear, 3 for the turbojet... all just for quick testing purposes. The gear action group is just the traditional gear, and I don't think I enabled the steering on the front gear at all ether.. so adjust as needed/comfortable, and I hope you enjoy it

[Brandano]

I think I'll consider this to be outside the challenge, it seems unfair to have unlimited attempts, and I already have two entries.

However, just for the sake of it:

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Flight is still in progress, so far I have conventional takeoff, conventional landing at the island, pic next to my 2nd plane that is still parked at the island along with Jeb, takeoff from the island and vertical landing (a bit hard, a tad over 10 m/s, but the wings held), vertical takeoff and zoom to altitude, 87k Apoapsis (periapsis never went positive, this one has only one air intake) and now I am coasting back down toward the desert. I'll try to get a landing near the pyramids, but I have never been there, so it might not happen, and then another hop back to KSC.

Part count:

1 x cockpit

1 x jet fuel tank

1 x intake

1 x jet engine

4 x swept wings

3 x landing gears

11 parts total

Will link the file once I recover it, though I guess I can grab the auto-saved ship. Surprisingly well behaved, though it tends to sideslip a bit. it helps limiting the engine thrust to 50%, it won't really limit the top speed either.

(edit) Hep! Spoke too soon. I got close to the pyramids, but lost control while attempting to brake to a vertical landing, and I didn't have a quicksave handy..

I never even realized I was still under acceleration either.

Even with that it managed:

100 : Success

90 + 50 : High Flier

70 : Islander

50 : Conservationist

250: VTOL

So it would be 610 points even without the Lander and Magellan achievement. I think that getting all achievements except for SSTO and Whackjob in one flight is achievable with this design.

Here's the .craft file:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_Tszjgnsur4b2tGNGdIbUVRaWc/edit?usp=sharing

I accidentally discovered that you can now build a plane without starting with a cockpit, and the root node of this craft is athe fuel tank. The first version model had a MK1 capsule to save weight, but I needed that intake and radial intakes just don't cut it at high altitude.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Brandano

[Keldaria]

I accidentally discovered that you can now build a plane without starting with a cockpit, and the root node of this craft is athe fuel tank. The first version model had a MK1 capsule to save weight, but I needed that intake and radial intakes just don't cut it at high altitude.

You realize that the MK2 w/ an air intake is actually lighter than an MK1 right?

[Brandano]

An MK1 command pod, not a MK1 cockpit. Sorry, I wasn't very clear. One downside of using the fuel tank as root node is that now I can't easily swap it for a rocket fuel tank, to convert the design to an SSTO. Getting the wings and gears aligned properly isn't exactly easy. There ought to be an option to "swap" the root node if nothing is attached to it, I think.

[Keldaria]

Ok,

Didn't have time to do more than play a little with my prior nights creations, primarily the VTOL.. which works but needs a better pilot lol. At any rate I'll post what I currently have until I can make another flight

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Meet the Dayra Falcon Mk2. Not completely redesigned but completely overhauled. I sent my engineers back at Dayra Industries back to the drawing board to build upon the Falcon design and boy did they ever. 20% more fuel, 5% less weight and drag (base levels) and 2 more air intakes including a ram intake. The wing placement was also tweaked forward as was the nose gear to help the overall weight distribution. The result is one great flying machine that's ready to take on the world and can easily (thanks to the use of a rocket tank that's normally empty on oxidizer) upgraded for VTOL and SSTO capabilities.

I did this flight in it yesterday and it went very well all the way until I broke the engine off in a snow bank near the UFO. I flew from KSP to the Island and from there I reversed course to the Pyramids then onto Internal KSP before finally flying north... Even with all that routing and having to actually do a few scouting circles to locate the Pyramids and UFO I think I actually had enough fuel left (60%ish) to head back southeast to KSP, Land, then head around the world for a Magellan. I was kicking myself for not doing any quicksaves as I was seemingly doing this pretty haphazardly =(

Overall I still count the flight as a success because it clearly showed that the optimization work paid off big time in range and performance.

Next I just did a quick demo of the VTOL system. If I was more skilled at landing a VTOL, I'm sure it would've been no problem but unfortunately the last image you see is me hovering 20m above the ground trying to correct for a previous over correction. I had to actually slightly re-balance the planes CoM so that the center of the tank remained the CoM to maintain the stability of the craft when fuel levels drop lower. It works pretty well, although taking off requires an immediate forward lean to correct for the landing gear angling the plane. I think I may adjust the frond gear to lower it as I've already attempted to jack up the back gear by placing them at an angle.

Of course because of the added weight from the engines and oxidizer, and the high consumption rate of the VTOL engines, the range of the aircraft drops noticeably. I estimate I could probably perform 1 VTOL takeoff and landing, and Magellan run, landing at the island and at least 1 other easter egg (likely the internal KSP) and land back at KSP on fumes. All of which would require being as efficient as possible with routeing.. and may require Jeb get out and push the last few meters =P

I hope to do an actual scoring style run tomorrow if I can find the time for the Mk2

[Darren9]

I had to remove everything unnecessary from my mod quad VTOL to have a chance against these impressive stock creations and ended up with a 4 wing, 4 fuel tank, 2 engine configuration. I took off from KSC and flew north to the UFO, then down to KSC2, then down to the Pyramid, then made 63Km max altitude on the way back to a runway landing at KSC, then made a full circumnavigation and landed back on the runway, and then popped over to the dirt runway and landed there. It could be:

Success 100

Lander 50

High Flyer 133

Islander 70

Maggellan 100

Easter Bunny 450

VTOL 250

For a total of 1153 points. Uses the same mods as the last one as well as some structural wood from Prof Kerbenstein.

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[-ELF-]

This made me think a lot.

I thought that spaceplanes are hard to fly and abandoned working with them.

Probably I needed control surfaces.

[PoliticallyCorrectLobster]

Great job everybody! I have updated the leaderboard with the highest scores for each contestant.

[keptin]

Aww, look at all these cute little planes. Muaahahaahah!

I'm going for the biggest, heaviest aircraft entry. I present the Reactor VI E, an update to my previous submission. It's controlled using yaw induced roll. Basically the way the wings are shaped, as yaw is applied the outside wing's angle of attack increases and it produces more lift than the inside wing causing the aircraft to roll in the direction of the yaw. I have no roll authority on the stick, only pitch and yaw--and yaw acts as roll.

And of course, no control surfaces or additional torque pods added.

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Kinda lazy with the points, but here goes...

Success: Take off and fly at least 1 km. +100 Points

Islander: Fly to the Insular Runway.**** +70 Points

Whackjob: Use over 100 parts.** +200 Points

=370 points

Edited April 11, 2014 by keptin