Would you like reducing the thrust of the new engines?

[hawk_za]

Selection of metric to demonstrate it is also matter of opinion. Even experts may not agree on what metric is correct.

In my opinion, an engine is undisputably OP if and only if you would use it for any purpose because it is better than any other engine in any situation. That would mean mass of LV-1, thrust they have, and ISP of LV-N. If such an engine was added to the game, yes, I would think it is OP.

Only if that engine is available at the start of the tech tree there fore nullifying all other engines to come.

[SpaceGremlin]

I say let's not get too crazy with the nerfs yet. I definitely don't support bringing them exactly in line with all the other engines stat wise. A slight tone down might be warranted. The devs could still limit their usefulness by adding higher nodes to the tech tree or make them economically inefficient for launching anything other than a monster payload.

The numbers for these engines weren't likely pulled out of a hat at random. The devs play this game too you know. I sense that 0.24 will sort out some of these issues without resorting to extreme stat nerfs.

[Jouni]

When comparing the TWR and Isp, the new engines are outliers on the positive side of the curve that applies to almost all of the old engines, which makes them overpowered in the sense that they are unbalanced against the old. There is literally no quantitative reason to use a Mainsail when a KR-2L is available, it is better in every regard.

I'm not saying they have too much thrust, if that's what you mean.

The graph demonstrates that the new engines are more powerful under some metrics than the old ones, which is a descriptive statement. Saying that they are overpowered is a judgemental statement and hence a matter of opinion, even when the opinion is based on an uncontroversial descriptive statement.

[Dodgey]

Jouni, seeing as you won't use the graph to determine what is OP in an objective sense, may I ask for your method for determining what is OP?

[Red Iron Crown]

The graph demonstrates that the new engines are more powerful under some metrics than the old ones, which is a descriptive statement. Saying that they are overpowered is a judgemental statement and hence a matter of opinion, even when the opinion is based on an uncontroversial descriptive statement.

I respectfully disagree. They are unbalanced in comparison to the old engines, which is what I mean by "overpowered". Whether they are too overpowered for the current game balance is certainly a matter of opinion.

Another example would be the 48-7S, which is overpowered in the sense that it's not balanced against the other engines, but IMO it is not too overpowered for the game as there are situations in which other engines still make sense.

[garosz]

The new engines need to be balanced. They make the game easy and the large tanks and engines will be completely useless.(additionally they are the components of the same science improvement)

With these engines there is no need for tanker ships and stations can be thrown in the sky together.

[Jouni]

I respectfully disagree. They are unbalanced in comparison to the old engines, which is what I mean by "overpowered". Whether they are too overpowered for the current game balance is certainly a matter of opinion.

Saying that they are unbalanced under some metrics is an uncontroversial statement. On the other hand, "overpowered" is a loaded word, and using it changes the statement into an expression of opinion. Basically, "overpowered" already means "too overpowered", at least when the context is about games.

[biohazard15]

There is literally no quantitative reason to use a Mainsail when a LFB-KR2 is available, it is better in every regard.

Umm... and? You're assuming that EVERY player who want a 2.5m rocket will use KR2 and discard Mainsail just because former is better?

KSP isn't an economical turn-based strategy, it's a kinda-sci-fi space simulation sandbox. Which means: you don't have to devise some smart tactics or execute witty moves to win. You JUST. HAVING. FUN. And yes, that means "choose any engine you like" too.

So why players wouldn't choose Mainsail, if this Mainsail would suit their idea? Just because it's worse than KR2? This is just ridiculous.

Oh, and compare price of KR-2 vs price of Mainsail. If these prices will make it into contracts update - I bet you'll quickly change your opinion about "overpowered" KR-2.

Edited April 4, 2014 by biohazard15

[Dodgey]

Saying that they are unbalanced under some metrics is an uncontroversial statement. On the other hand, "overpowered" is a loaded word, and using it changes the statement into an expression of opinion. Basically, "overpowered" already means "too overpowered", at least when the context is about games.

Well by difination overpowered is unbalanced but unbalanced isn't overpowered. Overpowered is a more accurate statement to use in this context as it defines the how something is overpowered.

[Red Iron Crown]

Saying that they are unbalanced under some metrics is an uncontroversial statement. On the other hand, "overpowered" is a loaded word, and using it changes the statement into an expression of opinion. Basically, "overpowered" already means "too overpowered", at least when the context is about games.

That's a fair distinction, I'll be more careful in my word choice.

[rtxoff]

No i do not think the new parts are OP. Anyone who does not like them should not use them, it's as easy as that. Nerfing things in a single player game is just ridiculous. How can someone claim that this game is multiplayer? Where in this game (beside MP mods) do you shoot other people with rockets? Sorry but this nerfing discussion lacks any fundament. You can nerf stuff in MMO's where people fight each other and some specific type of build is OP and it's not fun to play against people using this builds. KSP is a single player game made for you to have fun building rockets you can not build in RL. Where is the sense in nerfing parts in this game beside satisfying some guys which think they must have it their way. Sorry NO. I do not want it like that. Do not nerf the new parts. Everybody not liking them don't use them or edit them to your needs. Dev's had a good reason making them like they are now and they are based on real space tech from Nasa.

So please no nerf.

Thanks.

[Red Iron Crown]

Umm... and? You're assuming that EVERY player who want a 2.5m rocket will use KR2 and discard Mainsail just because former is better?

KSP isn't an economical turn-based strategy, it's a kinda-sci-fi space simulation sandbox. Which means: you don't have to devise some smart tactics or execute witty moves to win. You JUST. HAVING. FUN. And yes, that means "choose any engine you like" too.

So why players wouldn't choose Mainsail, if this Mainsail would suit their idea? Just because it's worse than KR2? This is just ridiculous.

Oh, and compare price of KR-2 vs price of Mainsail. If these prices will make it into contracts update - I bet you'll quickly change your opinion about "overpowered" KR-2.

We're discussing the balance of the new parts, so quantitative metrics are all that matters.

Of course everyone is free to use whatever part they like for whatever reason they like, but that has nothing to do with game balance.

Saying they might be balanced when economics arrive is a weak argument, IMO.

[SpaceGremlin]

When it comes to any game with an economic system, price balancing is a huge factor. It is a very strong argument. If an SLS part is 33% more efficient stat wise, but 200% more expensive, that narrows its practicality but a huge margin. Super expensive SLS parts could be a reward for having excess budget, but you wouldn't want to launch everything with them if the price of other components is attractive enough.

[boomerdog2000]

Plus our only introduction to these parts is in sandbox or endgame career. In sandbox the entire point is to have every part unlocked purely so you get that endgame content. Once money is implemented these parts will cost insane amounts of whatever currency we end up with. Encouraging the player to only use them when needed or take a huge financial hit.

[hawk_za]

the counter argument can also be given using the comm dishes as an example

the com 16 is cheaper, uses less power and transfers same amount of data faster than the dts-m1 and it is available sooner that the dts-m1 on the tech tree so rendering the dts-m1 useless in career mode and in sand box mode to me that make it over powered the sand box is no longer were the core of the game play is it has mover over to career mode sand box has become a testing station for people who have finished the career mode and wish to try design new things off the bat without having to unlock them first.

so what if something is op the tech tree renders that argument null and void as long as the op device comes at the end of the tech tree unlike the com-16

[Red Iron Crown]

When it comes to any game with an economic system, price balancing is a huge factor. It is a very strong argument. If an SLS part is 33% more efficient stat wise, but 200% more expensive, that narrows its practicality but a huge margin. Super expensive SLS parts could be a reward for having excess budget, but you wouldn't want to launch everything with them if the price of other components is attractive enough.

Saying they might be balanced when economics arrive, when we don't have any details about how economics will work, and all the other engines are reasonably balanced against each other without respect to price, is a weak argument IMO.

[Dodgey]

We don't know how the money system is going to work as we haven't received any official word about it. The prices have been in the game forever and aren't a clear indication on how it will work in the end.

That's why it isn't a good argument.

[SpaceGremlin]

And yet many people are demanding nerfs right now when the only thing we can effectively change is the stats.

[Rusty6899]

Generally, the only balance you need to worry about for your craft, at the moment, is TWR and Isp. When cost comes into it as well the parts that are OP will cease to be.

In terms of gameplay, the NERVA's are overpowered because they are always a better option for interplanetary travel than any other engine, but underpowered compared to their real life counterparts. If they cost a lot more than the other engines, then they would cease to be OP and would just form a balance with the rest of the game's engines.

The same can be said of ion engines and the new lifters. When cost considerations come into play then there won't be the same problem.

[Dodgey]

And yet many people are demanding nerfs right now when the only thing we can effectively change is the stats.

What else would we change about them apart from their stats?

Rusty6899 those aren't OP because they are balanced with regards to their TWR and ISP, if you have a look at Silly_Chris's graph you can see that the new engines are superior in both ISP and TWR.

[SpaceGremlin]

I'm saying that this is not an urgent crisis. We don't absolutely need these to be hotfixed before the next update. Like I said earlier, I doubt these stats are accidental. We know 0.24 has career mode changes coming. There will be plenty of opportunities for the devs to create interesting trade offs for these parts other than taking the most boring route of making them exactly like every other part.

Realistically, I do expect these to be toned down stat wise by the devs anyway, I just am objecting to the knee jerk reaction to immediately nerf them into oblivion. So you might have to suffer through these parts being OP for a whole update. I for one trust that they were made this way for a reason by the devs, and its going to mesh well with something planned for 0.24. If that doesn't pan out I'll start calling for the nerfs too, but until then I'm just going to suck it up and see what happens.

[The Space]

Let's just calm down and wait for the 0.24 which might introduce money to the game. I believe the new engines can be "balanced" if needed by having them cost more science points and money in the career mode.

In my opinion changing stats of parts just to make them more balanced in sandbox doesn't make sense since in sandbox you already have unlimited amounts of everything and you don't need to unlock parts or pay for them. Sandbox is all about experimenting and having fun and not having everything strictly balanced.

Once heavier parts and more planets are added to the game you might really need every single kilonewton of thrust the new engines give you to reach new planets or move bigger payloads.

[The Error]

I think the issue here is that the new parts don't line up with what some people think they should. As in, yes, they are statistically better. So? This isn't a competetive game, it's just a game to mess around with.

The idea that "We're just having fun" apparently is irrelevant, despite the fact that when you're having fun with a sandbox, stats become irrelevant. Will the SLS supplant some parts? For those who want to play career or under an efficiency budget, yes. For those who slap rockets together to see the wacky fun that will occur? Probably not.

And again. You dislike the parts? Alter them. Alternatively, don't use them. There's no rules in KSP declaring all parts must fall in line with others. And do bear in mind that the enirety of KSP (planets, moons, engines, fuel tanks) are imbalanced. The idea isn't realism or balance, it's FUN.

[vger]

The problem isn't about needing the engines to send up huge payloads. IMO, if you're sending up something that big, you should be doing it in parts anyhow. These engines seem equipped for launching the entire ISS, which is just silly, and aside from the comedic value, not that fun.

And then you have the issue of overall challenge. When you can use an engine to lift a monster payload, what will that same engine do when carrying something more conservative?

Plainly, SOME bodies in the system should ALWAYS be a challenge to reach, regardless of what parts we have access to.

I'm saying that this is not an urgent crisis. We don't absolutely need these to be hotfixed before the next update. Like I said earlier, I doubt these stats are accidental. We know 0.24 has career mode changes coming. There will be plenty of opportunities for the devs to create interesting trade offs for these parts other than taking the most boring route of making them exactly like every other part.

It could be urgent. There are probably a lot of players in this community who haven't done everything yet, because certain things were particularly hard. Those players will be able to hit everything in a matter of days now, and could very quickly lose interest in playing after that. That would be a very artificial exodus, one that could easily be avoided.

Edited April 4, 2014 by vger

[manuelasa1999]

Maybe my English understanding is wrong but... Doesn't overpowered mean more-powerfull, if you see the comparations with the old engines you can see they are less powerfull than ARM engines, thats the true for me. Also i created this post to see people's opinion, not to create a war