Universal Storage 1.4.0.0 (For KSP 1.4.x) 13th March 2018

[Paul Kingtiger]

What about creating a pack and wedges for KSP-Interstellar resources? Specifically, LiquidMethane, Ammonia, Hydrogen Peroxide, and Lithium?

I don't use interstellar (although I'd like to give it a try when Career mode is more complete), so I couldn't really make a quality pack for it. However I encourage people to create a module manager file allowing US to be used with Interstellar.

That should be easier to do once we're released the new few packs, giving you access to more models.

Utilizing methane as "LiquidFuel" in this mod is also an unrealistic idea- in real life, rocket engines need to be specifically designed to burn Methane/LOX rather than Hydrogen/LOX or Kerosene/LOX...

True, but then the methane created would be a wasted resource and I wanted all the inputs and outputs to be used. If anyone uses real fuels and US they could write a module manager file to change the output to Methane to make it compatible with that mod. Or if they would rather not have the methane as liquid fuel they could make a similar change. Personally I don't think it's a huge stretch to have an engine capable of multiple fuel types and it closes the loop nicely on the US resources.

[Northstar1989]

I don't use interstellar (although I'd like to give it a try when Career mode is more complete), so I couldn't really make a quality pack for it. However I encourage people to create a module manager file allowing US to be used with Interstellar.

That should be easier to do once we're released the new few packs, giving you access to more models.

Good to know a KSP-Interstellar pack is being at least thought about...

True, but then the methane created would be a wasted resource and I wanted all the inputs and outputs to be used. If anyone uses real fuels and US they could write a module manager file to change the output to Methane to make it compatible with that mod. Or if they would rather not have the methane as liquid fuel they could make a similar change. Personally I don't think it's a huge stretch to have an engine capable of multiple fuel types and it closes the loop nicely on the US resources.

I was actually thinking when I wrote that of how KSP-Interstellar has its own specialized LiquidMethane (another resource unique to KSP-I) engines, but I believe it's true that RealFuels has methane-burning engines as well.

The problem with simply converting the methane to "LiquidFuel" is that then you have it burning in a completely non-stoichiometric ratio. The stock LFO engines burn "LiquidFuel" and "Oxidizer" in a ratio of 10:11, and the fuels have equal density. No real-world fuels burn in that mass ratio, and the density ratios don't correspond to any known real-world fuels. More importantly, though, methane burns in a 1:4 mass ratio of methane:oxygen (CH4 + 2 O2 --> CO2 + 2 H2O, with each O2 weighing twice as much as each CH4).

So if you simply have the Sabatier Reactor produce "LiquidFuel", you'll be producing a fuel that is a lot higher portion of a methane:oxygen engine's fuel supply than its real-world equivalent (only 20% of methane:oxygen's fuel supply will be methane), and thus, is *LESS* useful for using in combination with the In-Situ Resource Utilization system of KSP-Interstellar, which allows you to easily produce virtually unlimited amounts of Oxidizer on the Mun by electrolyzing aluminum-oxygen regolith (such regolith makes up a large percentage of Luna's surface in real-life).

Assuming the KSP-Interstellar pack allowed players to produce the mod's "LiquidMethane" resource from your mod's reactor, they would be missing out on the opportunity to produce a resource that could burn in a 4:1 mass ratio with easily-available Oxidizer (KSP-Interstellar's methane engines work on the real-world stoichiometric ratios), and instead having to settle for obtaining a resource that only burns in a 10:11 mass ratio with Oxidizer, drastically reducing the potential for mass-leveraging to the point where burning it with Oxidizer harvested from the Mun could not possibly be economical...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited May 16, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Meridius]

How about some batteries to fit in the wedges during earlier career mode? That could be very useful.

Great mod!

[Hyratel]

RealFuels uses LiquidFuel to cover Kerosene and has LH2 as a discrete resource

[woot]

I second the idea about batteries -- basically anything with surface attachment that doesn't have to be could be made better with this mod.

[OOZ662]

It's been stated a few times that batteries probably aren't going to happen, but that an "empty" core in which you can mount things that would normally be bolted to the outside of the rocket is likely.

[loppnessmonsta]

I'm sure the basic concept has been mentioned before, but perhaps a science wedge? have just one part, with built-in thermometer, barometer, gravmax, etc. (everything except goo and materials bay, which are big enough to need their own parts) could have each functionality unlock as you unlock the base part, the way MechJeb unlocks specific functions as you progress.

[Paul Kingtiger]

I'm sure the basic concept has been mentioned before, but perhaps a science wedge?

Dmagic's Orbital science mod has science wedges.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64972-0-23-5-DMagic-Orbital-Science-New-Science-Parts-V0-8-(4-28-14)

In addition we're going to create a science bay wedge, which won't feature any science parts, but you will be able to attach your own science gathering equipment inside. By stacking these parts you'll be able to get all the small stock parts and anything up to a goo container.

[Meridius]

Dmagic's Orbital science mod has science wedges.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/64972-0-23-5-DMagic-Orbital-Science-New-Science-Parts-V0-8-(4-28-14)

In addition we're going to create a science bay wedge, which won't feature any science parts, but you will be able to attach your own science gathering equipment inside. By stacking these parts you'll be able to get all the small stock parts and anything up to a goo container.

Nice; Gracias!

[colormode]

Awesome work! Guess I'll be switching to ECLSS for now. Can't wait for TAC and KAS!

[FiiZzioN]

When are we going to see the TAC pack introduced? That's thing I've been personally wanting the most. I also agree with what woot said above: "I second the idea about batteries -- basically anything with surface attachment that doesn't have to be could be made better with this mod."

Great mod, and I hope to see the TAC pack being released soon!

[phoenix_ca]

After TAC updates (or doesn't update) its units.

[HeadHunter67]

I had a thought about that - for those modders using liters for life support - how, exactly, are they reckoning "liters" for oxygen? An oxygen cylinder that's 10cm in diameter and 13cm long has a volume of about a liter... but it holds way more oxygen that one liter. Even the smallest oxygen cylinders hold about 50 times their volume in pressurized oxygen.

So I can see why that might be an easy benchmark for water, food, waste and other things that cannot be compressed - but it's not so useful for gases such as oxygen and carbon dioxide.

And if we're talking liquid oxygen, then one liter of liquid O2 can provide considerably more liters of breathable oxygen than one mere liter.

Edited May 19, 2014 by HeadHunter67

[phoenix_ca]

An oxygen cylinder that's 10cm in diameter and 13cm long has a volume of about a liter... but it holds way more oxygen that one liter.

For some reason that reminded me of making ice cream with liquid nitrogen. It's prudent to calculate the total volume of the gas in the container when at room temperature before dumping it into the room you are in...don't want to asphyxiate yourself. That would be embarrassing. (I still don't have the money to spend on a proper Dewar flask though. Those things are expensive. )

[HeadHunter67]

Understandable - but even the standard oxygen bottles used for respiration hold a considerable volume of breathable gas. An O2 cylinder the size of a one-liter soda bottle holds about 50 liters of immediately breathable oxygen.

When you consider that these racks will probably hold the gas in a liquefied form, to be warmed by the existing life support equipment in a capsule, then using "liters" to measure it becomes quite confusing. Stored liters and liters breathed are very different things.

[OOZ662]

I can't speak for other mods, but Kingtiger demonstrated exactly how he calculated the capacities in the devblog twice, once in Creating US pt2 and Resource Capacities. I think there was a post either here or he devthread detailing it as well.

EDIT: I forgot Part 3 has more math.

Edited May 20, 2014 by OOZ662

[HeadHunter67]

Thanks, that was exactly what I wanted to know. So a one-liter cylinder could store 85 liters of pressurized oxygen in gas form, or 798 liters in liquid form. Obviously, in a spacecraft, it is going to be stored in liquid form most of the time, for space considerations and also for use in the fuel cell, which also provides power and clean water.

A quick search shows that a human needs about 550 liters of oxygen each day, but I'd expect that Kerbals would use proportionately less. So a one-liter cylinder of LOX could produce enough breathable air for 2 Kerbals for one day - and the standard 58-liter Universal Storage cylinder would hold enough for 131 Kerbal-days of air (a 3-Kerbal crew for six weeks).

[Meridius]

Liquid O2 is not compressible due to its cryogenic liquid phase. DiOxygen is compressible and the compressibility numbers look correct. I suspect the numbers compressing the liquid 02 state are faulty. It seems that with one oxygen wedge on a 1 seat Mark1Pod that having 180 days of oxygen reserve is too extreme. Seems like for the volume of 58 liters which is about a 2 cu foot cylinder (for us U.S. scientists and engineers), 18 days would be more like it. Your numbers are linear and the pressure equations are curvilinear. 1st look that math looks good, but there is something off in the internals most likely since you didn't use Bernoulli's equation.

[Captain Sierra]

*looks for TAC update*

New models in over in dev thread look fantastic. Holding off on installing TAC until this is done for it. No pressure.

[HeadHunter67]

Liquid O2 is not compressible due to its cryogenic liquid phase.

No one ever said it was - I simply pointed out that a liter of liquid oxygen provides hundreds of liters of breathable gas. The liquid is not compressible - it's already compressed, and that's why it yields so much gaseous oxygen for its volume.

As for the raw numbers themselves - Paul took them from medical and welding supply products, and I'd like to think they have a pretty good understanding of what their containers can hold. I'm not sure about the math in the liquid state, but since even the smallest cylinder can hold about 50 times its volume in pressurized gaseous oxygen, 800-ish is not unlikely in liquefied form.

Also, I'm not sure what Bernoulli has to do with this - care to explain?

[Meridius]

Not sure that I can...I am a geologist, not a rocket scientist.

A colleague of mine, civil engineer, and I were looking at this.

The equations deal with partial pressures and phase changes (i.e. LOX to O2). The equations are derivatives whereby gravity, head, density, flow, and pressure are functions of the main equation. On Earth, these are usually held constant. But in the atmosphere and in microgravity, they become relevant factors.

Also, the ECLSS systems are nitrogen based (or Zero Air) with a pressure of 14.8 psi at 78% N2 and 22% O2.

Guys/Gals: DO NOT take this as a criticism. Both of these mods are fantastic.

Instead of storing the CO2, any way to dump it?

Edited May 21, 2014 by Meridius

[Daishi]

Instead of storing the CO2, any way to dump it?

Just dont pack CO2 tanks, and any buildup won't be collected. But of course that all depends on how the lifesupport mod you use handles it. I think TAC and ECLSS dump excess with no real consequence. Though that could always change...

[Meridius]

I really didn't mean to kill this thread...

[HawkW]

I've found what appears to be a bug: the fuel cell wedge has a mass of 5.25 in-game, but in the part.cfg file, it has a mass of 0.25. Similarly, the oxygen wedge has a mass of 19.9181 in-game, despite having a mass of 0.083 in it's part.cfg file. I have Universal Storage Core, Universal Storage ECLSS, and the ECLSS Rebalancer mod installed. Reinstalling Universal Storage doesn't seem to do anything about it. Any idea what's the cause of this?

[smurphy34]

I've found what appears to be a bug: the fuel cell wedge has a mass of 5.25 in-game, but in the part.cfg file, it has a mass of 0.25. Similarly, the oxygen wedge has a mass of 19.9181 in-game, despite having a mass of 0.083 in it's part.cfg file. I have Universal Storage Core, Universal Storage ECLSS, and the ECLSS Rebalancer mod installed. Reinstalling Universal Storage doesn't seem to do anything about it. Any idea what's the cause of this?

I had the exact same problem (My previous post) and it was because another mod I had installed had defined the resource "Oxygen" at a different density than US does. In GameData\NewHorizons\UniversalStorage\Core you will find a US_Core.cfg that defines "name = Oxygen" "density = 0.0000014290" . I had installed Asteroid Cities and it had a resource definition cfg that had "name = Oxygen" "density = 0.0004290144". All I had to do was change the oxygen density in the Asteroid cities cfg to match the US cfg to get the mass of any US storage of oxygen to come back down to normal levels.

Hope this helps.

Edited May 25, 2014 by smurphy34