Does the 0.23.5 "patch" have been released too early ?

[Justin Kerbice]

(another title I thought to use are: "Why KSP is a so good sandbox game ?" or "Is KSP really good for you ?")

After seeing what's happened before and after the 0.23.5, staying far from the "heat", I saw all the posts written as something which have turned from enthusiasm to selfish stupidity. Watching everyday new bunch of threads about pure fantasies of people who think about what it will be for them, already creating missions around the incoming update, asking already for parts following the new size(s), crafts using those parts, and so on... just make me feel very disgusted by this attitude which seems to have put an incredible amount of pressure upon Squad team shoulders, make them released an unfinished product. I know it's again an early alpha/beta/whatever release but it's appear to be less polished than 0.23, with what was appear to be some/many balance issues (from many of those users perspective) and some/many bugs.

The funny thing is that is mostly the same people whose asked (not directly) for the 0.23.5 to be released ASAP, when they have it, they complain about engine balance and tons of bugs !

Shoot me if you wish but I truly believe if you are one of those people who was absolutely shaking out of patience to get this ARM "patch", KSP is not for you.

There are people doing the unfinished/drafty career mode in 2 missions, what was the goal here ? You complete it, you have everything available and so what ? You get bored, you have no aim, no purpose, nothing to do with the game, you are just waiting for your new shot of things to do, again and again, like any addicts.

Unfortunately, players have been fed those past years with almost only GTA style sandbox game, which are in fact quite poorly designed overall because apart from the missions and some repetitive activities, you have nothing fun to do in the long run, and while you have the narrative to support you, it's ok, you can play.

But when you complete the story, it's game over, you get bored, you need the next release to start over the exact same thing.

(it's the same with all title from GTA3, Saints Row serie, Red Faction Guerilla, and others).

By the way, I really hope KSP will never become something like that, the sandbox mode, at least, need to remain as it is.

I don't claim to know every single game released since Pong, but IMHO, I've only seen one similar sandbox game in video game history, strangely, it's in space too: Echelon.

Briefly, in this 3D wireframe "simulation" game you have to decypher a code with the help of clues you find in many places around the Isis planet, you can activate fighting on demand, to explore peacefully or fight like hell, there is also shooting range to practice and many things to discover.

The same angle is used in KSP as I understand it, you can do whatever you want, however you want, at your own pace. But people who need a guideline, a storyline or just one or more campaigns or many scenarii will get sooner or later lost in the Kerbal universe. Without someone/something telling them "do this, do that" like in GTA style game, they're stuck like a powerless robot or a frozen terminator. This lack of guideline is greatly increased by the tiny number or scenarii included by default.

(to have more in a relatively short time, it might be a matter of releasing some good docs about how to create a proper scenario then launching a contest, at least, some people get something to do instead of complaining about new parts or creating fantasy about future release of KSP).

Last thought, I just think Squad team is a bit too far/too separated from the KSP community, like they are in an unreachable ivory tower, we may feel they don't listen to the smartest/more relevant criticism and are just fooled by the noisy people who don't really care about KSP and have no loyalty in it (=these people will play other games for a while and may forget about KSP at all).

(In fact, It looks like public disclosure of new visual/graphic features (too) early is not as good as it first appears to be.)

Example of recent people fantasy: some people seems to already know how the currency system will be.

Thanks for reading.

[NecroBones]

Well, the update did introduce a few new glitches, alongside a wealth of great new stuff. I'm having a great time with it, despite other people's complaints.

[Dkmdlb]

KSP IS IN ALPHA. This means it is still very early in development. This means the devs expect lots of bugs. This means you should too. There's nothing wrong with releasing buggy software, as long as you tell people it's in alpha.

[cantab]

So far I've encountered the odd issue but none of the major bugs others have - though I may just be lucky, or not pushing the game as hard as some in terms of stuff like part count. As for the new parts, whether they should be unbalanced has caused ugly rows on the forums, but IIRC Squad have stated that they're deliberately unbalanced.

So, no, it was not released too early.

Also, speak for yourself about GTA. I put loads of hours in the GTA games just mucking about doing what I felt like. Probably far more than I actually spent on the missions.

[Red Iron Crown]

this attitude which seems to have put an incredible amount of pressure upon Squad team shoulders, make them released an unfinished product.

I've been around KSP for a long time, and I can't say I've ever seen Squad bow to pressure to release something before they believe it is ready.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you. Do you think career is too structured? What is the linked forum thread supposed to demonstrate?

I played Echelon on my C64, I'm having a hard time drawing much of a comparison to KSP.

[Caelib]

There are some bug fixes and tweaks needed, but it wasn't released too early.

[Kasuha]

No, I don't think 0.23.5 has been released too early. There are certain problems with it which definitely deserve getting fixed as soon as possible (such as time warp bug and decoupler bug) but apart of that the release is IMO fine. We can't expect to get everything at once or that early access game will be free of issues.

I definitely don't think the dev team is separated from community. Although I am missing the tuesday devnote, the fact that I am used to getting one is a sign that it's not the case.

[r4pt0r]

---stuff....snip---

Last thought, I just think Squad team is a bit too far/too separated from the KSP community, like they are in an unreachable ivory tower, we may feel they don't listen to the smartest/more relevant criticism and are just fooled by the noisy people who don't really care about KSP and have no loyalty in it (=these people will play other games for a while and may forget about KSP at all).

Squad is supposed to be in that ivory tower. they will sit on their throne, and read posts from the peasantry, might take a few of the suggestions and consider the feedback, but at the end of the day its their kingdom. and they will make the game they want. we bought it under their terms after all.

if every single forum user posted they wanted a 5 kerbal command pod, and support was unanimous for it, they are still under no obligation to impliment it ever. maybe its not their vision for the game. and their vision should be what ends up being realized in the end. they have worked dang hard since ksp's conception to give us what we have now.

And i thank them for it!

[EtherDragon]

It is definitely premature to state that any game that has not yet been released, was released too soon.

This game is in alpha phase, any thing you see is a preview of the full title. If you have specific suggestions, this is the time. But accusing the debs of releasing too soon, when it hasn't been released is incorrect.

By participating in an alpha you must accept that features will be add often, and will not be complete, and there may be bugs.

A big money title would receive no, none, zero feedback from the community during main development, and the first exposure people might have is a Beta, where most features are locked and the only thing left is balancing by play-testing.

So give them you ideas.

Edited April 9, 2014 by EtherDragon

[Javster]

KSP IS IN ALPHA. This means it is still very early in development. This means the devs expect lots of bugs. This means you should too. There's nothing wrong with releasing buggy software, as long as you tell people it's in alpha.

As long as they remove the stuff about releasing it to a "media team", before everyone else, WHO BUY THE GAME AS TESTERS.

[vexx32]

*shrugs*

There're game breaking bugs that slip through ever so often on "finished" games out there as they patch them periodically. No amount of testers will ensure they catch everything before a release goes public, and they may not wish to delay the release by another month or more just to fix some erratic bugs (besides, more explosions are always better, riiiiight?). Besides, the test teams Squad have aren't paid to test KSP, so they're working in their own time to help out and make sure the rest of us get as good a release as possible. Don't expect them to be perfect.

------Addendum------

Tread carefully folks, and remember that on a topic like this, 99% of all the discussion here is going to be back and forth on personal opinions. As such, please remember that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even if you disagree, and try not to be derogatory towards anyone else for their opinion. We are watching. *ahem*

Be nice, okay? It's all well and good to discuss stuff like this, but just make sure it doesn't turn into a mudslinging match... or else we'll have to step in and probably close the thread, at the very least.

[karolus10]

I would say that sandbox games had something from Legos, some people will use own Imagination and creativity to build new spacecrafts and design another epic missions... some other need to read instructions.

[FEichinger]

As long as they remove the stuff about releasing it to a "media team", before everyone else, WHO BUY THE GAME AS TESTERS.

I'm not sure what your concern with this is. I've mentioned this before, this notion that it is "unfair" that the media team gets experimentals access is, frankly, nonsense. They are, for all intents and purposes, press. Think of their experimentals access as a review copy. They are "paid" (through the revenue on their work) to promote the game, just like, say, IGN would be. Fundamentally, there's no difference, aside from the fact that enthusiast press is indeed people who are closer to the consumer side of things (as opposed to an outside perspective).

Experimental testing has also, for a long time, been part of KSP's development. The experimentals team contributes detailed issue reports and checks out every tiny piece of the update while the update is still in a state where it crashes on an hourly basis (and that's if you're lucky). These people bear with it and commit to the task, and that's commendable. I'm sure there are also a lot of people that aren't in the experimentals team that would be able to do this as well, but at the end of the day you won't get a "public experimentals" version, simply because the results are bad PR, lots of people freaking out about crashes, and in general a much more hostile environment.

The experimentals team channels the good and avoids the bad, with only one downside: Other users will have to wait a bit longer to try out the new stuff. But in turn, the new stuff actually works when they do.

And, finally, something that always annoys me here is this notion that we "buy the game as testers". We aren't testers. We're consumers. The game is in retail as a pre-release. We're not paying to test, we're paying to play. Sure, we are all asked to contribute, report bugs, and given an opportunity to add our own input, but this doesn't make any of us primarily testers. If we were testers we'd be obligated to report bugs and actually bring the game to its knees, rather than just play as we do. (Although, to be fair, this all depends on your definition of "testing" - but none of the testing the broad masses do is properly related to quality assurance testing, be it internal QA or experimentals.)

Edit: My, what a colourful party here.

[Red Iron Crown]

Any other mods want to chime in?

[flyboy67109]

I like the simulator/sandbox games. One thing I would like to see in the finished game is a backstory that the player needs to discover through a scenario of some sort. For example, what's the story behind the pyramids? Was Jeb an archaeologist in college and changed to become an kerbalnaut? Why are Bill, Bob, and Jeb such pals? Is there a history of shared hardship or trauma? And what about the monoliths? Is there some secret message we have yet to discover? What is the mystery behind the abandoned launch pad and island airfield? Having an optional story thread within the game would add a level of intrigue to the game, I think.

[CalculusWarrior]

I like the simulator/sandbox games. One thing I would like to see in the finished game is a backstory that the player needs to discover through a scenario of some sort. For example, what's the story behind the pyramids? Was Jeb an archaeologist in college and changed to become an kerbalnaut? Why are Bill, Bob, and Jeb such pals? Is there a history of shared hardship or trauma? And what about the monoliths? Is there some secret message we have yet to discover? What is the mystery behind the abandoned launch pad and island airfield? Having an optional story thread within the game would add a level of intrigue to the game, I think.

Apparently Nova had some sort of story in mind while designing the Kerbol system, which is why the Duna SSTV signal has that curious pattern. However, it never got much farther than that. There's a forum post around here somewhere detailing his story...

[cantab]

Well said by vexx and Feichinger.

As I see it the early access thing doesn't mean we're testers, not in any more than an informal sense. Rather it's a warning: This game's not fully finished, it might never be really finished, and updates might break your old work.

Certainly I, and I expect the vast majority of players, bought the game because I want to play (and have more parts and places than the demo), not because I want to bug-hunt.

[John Crichton]

I'm enjoying the update so far...

[NeoMorph]

Released too soon... Not at all.

I think I have played more KSP since 23.5 came out... Too much so in fact lol.

I've even been neglecting playing Titanfall...

[Frank_G]

I really like the update. It gave serveral opportunities to get rid of memory consuming mods and it has lots of fun and potential to offer. Great update, no complaints.

[Dkmdlb]

As long as they remove the stuff about releasing it to a "media team", before everyone else, WHO BUY THE GAME AS TESTERS.

They can give the game to whoever they want under whatever conditions they want - because guess what - it's their game.

[Rowsdower]

Last thought, I just think Squad team is a bit too far/too separated from the KSP community, like they are in an unreachable ivory tower, we may feel they don't listen to the smartest/more relevant criticism and are just fooled by the noisy people who don't really care about KSP and have no loyalty in it (=these people will play other games for a while and may forget about KSP at all).

Hi, Justin. While there must be some space given for purposes like focus and concentration, calling it an ivory tower is a bit of a misnomer. Though their individual presence may not be as prominent as it was in years past, members of the KSP team are apt to check in to see what the community's up to. There's also the hard working mod team and myself who do our best to tap the pulse of the community and make sure it's in their face.

[nimbim]

I don't get it. OP is just a collection of thoughts that confirm your opinion, but I didn't see any arguments to support it. It's just a ramble to me and the only part that gets really quoted from your post is the clear complaint that fit into a few lines (however untrue it may be).

And Rowsdower is clearly a hard worker.

Edited April 10, 2014 by nimbim