Making probe, and rovers useful

[Tweeker]

I've been thinking a lot about probes and what it would take to make them useful. I tried using remotetech, as I have seen several people talk about it. I found setting the relay network interesting, but there was still no reason to use probes or satelites. I think that part of the problem is that it is just as easy to send a manned mission and you get more science for that same mission. I think that adding life support would help with this by de-incentivizing manned missions.

[Twreed87]

I think there may be use for it when career is fully implemented. Then you'll have to manage your budget more carefully, so every bit of weight will count. Then sometimes it might be preferable to send a probe on a one-way course early on, before making a manned round-trip.

Also, I think they plan to add more discovery elements to the game. For example, before you visit Duna, all you see is a vague blob, and you have to visit it with a probe, maybe bring a camera of some sort, in order to get more info. And perhaps the science experiments you bring will give you info on what you need for your mission (since you'll know the gravity/atmosphere of the planet).

I don't really know about rovers, though. I never see a need for them. If I'm travelling between biomes, I prefer to just hop in my lander than use a rover. I guess those are just for fun.

[Yoha]

About rovers, it would be handy not to have to manually control them over kilometers. I do not find them really helpful in their current state.

[MKI]

Adding life support is probably the best and most interesting way to go. Its nice not having to worry about how long a kerbal is in space, but its one of the biggest things we need to overcome in real life. When going to anywhere further than the Moon. Even to the moon you can run out of life support quiet easily!

Kerbals in general need to get nerfed a bit, they survive to many hostile environments (re-entry, massive g forces) that aren't realistic, put probes out of buisness and make flying around really easy if you don't mind timewarp.

Its not so much probe cores needing a buff, Kerbals need a nerf.

[Scoundrel]

You don't really need a kerbal, as it's generally more efficient to send a probe core and spam goo and science jrs than a lander with kerbals. Outside of the Kerbin/Mun/Minmus system, it's even moreso as there's only 1 "biome" for each inner/outer planet/planetoid.

As for making rovers useful, Squad would have to add some sort of required mining/exploration aspect to the game since there is no reason to be wandering more than 3m from the lander, and even then it would require following a trail since otherwise it would be easier and more convenient to just fly the lander around.

Adding life support is probably the best and most interesting way to go. <snip>

Ahhh, I shall have slightly disagree with you here my friend. A closed loop regenerative life support system (using Bosch reactors) would simply need 5 or 6 rtgs per kerbal and it would never run out, thus rendering the "logistical difficulty" of managing atm and H2O and its attendant micromanagement moot... especially since all systems are 100% reliable. Even using Sabatier reactors with its small amount of waste would simply require compressed H2 in cylinders (read: liquid fuel) to provide the tiny amount of H that is vented in the process. Thus, kerbalistically speaking, the only thing that would limit missions would be Snacks.

[Paul Kingtiger]

Life support will make probes more useful. As will a reputation system which give penalties for kerbal deaths.

Of course there needs to be an advantage to sending kerbals to balance it out. The reputation bonus of successful manned missions to other worlds should be high and boots on the ground should always be able to collect more science due to the added ability to react to changing situations.

A closed loop regenerative life support system (using Bosch reactors)...

That kind of tech is likely to be at the far end of the tech tree. Also where as water and oxygen can be maintained in a loop, food can't so there are still limitations on mission duration. Radiation exposure is also a factor in space travel, although outside the scope of all current life support mods. Finally living space and the psychological effects make probes a good option in the real world.

[r4pt0r]

ive always wanted a sample scoop for rovers. it could be modeled just like the yellow ladder but with no rungs. it dips into the ground and then retracts

[Tweeker]

I think a sample scoop would be a great idea, It would level the playing field quite a lot as far as probes vs manned Surface sample are one of the major science payouts for a mission, and not being able to get them with a probe really de-incentivizes using them. for example on a recent mission to Duna a surface sample return was worth 240 science. and from EVAs and crew reports you get an additional 310 science, even more if you finagle an ike encounter.

[Scoundrel]

That kind of tech is likely to be at the far end of the tech tree. <snip>

I think Squad shot themselves in the foot by referring to their component unlocking feature as a tech tree, as the tech tree isn't a "tech advancement" tree, it is a replacement for tutorials by limiting the parts available for new players.

And, based on past posts and livestream/IRC comments from HarvesteR, I suspect that the closest thing to a stock life support system we will see will be a vending machine that gets strapped to the side of the rocket.

[Tery215]

Probes are already SIGNIFICANTLY smaller than Kerbal Kommand Units. Probbs also cheaper.

Also, you don't feel guilty about destroying them in basically every situation possible.

[Tweeker]

Adding life support, and reducing the number of kerbin/mun/minimus biomes would go a long way. Science is too abundant in the kerbin SOI, and being able to send 10+year interplanetary missions with no drawback really takes away from the need to use probes.

I find the idea that money will fix it all to be a bit of a cop-out. The science rewards for sending a kerbal to orbit the moon and back are far greater than sending a probe, and by the time you unlock the stayputnik you are already able to send missions beyond kerbin soi. So sending probes seems like a real step backwards.

[r4pt0r]

Adding life support, and reducing the number of kerbin/mun/minimus biomes would go a long way. Science is too abundant in the kerbin SOI, and being able to send 10+year interplanetary missions with no drawback really takes away from the need to use probes.

I find the idea that money will fix it all to be a bit of a cop-out. The science rewards for sending a kerbal to orbit the moon and back are far greater than sending a probe, and by the time you unlock the stayputnik you are already able to send missions beyond kerbin soi. So sending probes seems like a real step backwards.

i would say once there are multi biomes on all planets, then the point values will get adjusted so that you need science from places other than mun/minmus to get more unlocks. later nodes should be more expensive.

[Ruinsage]

I hope they will redo science, to be more realistic and fun. I much prefer the way kethane works, with you having to scan the planet/moon from orbit. I'd love for science to be collected in that way, and not have to be transported back to kerbol physically. Surface samples still be the most rewarding, but at least you would have an actual reason to build probes.

edit: Also, capsules should unlock after probes

Edited April 14, 2014 by Ruinsage

[Tweeker]

I'm not claiming to be somekind of KSP savant, but I've recently taken to skipping both minums, and mun landings altogether. Last night I started what was supposed to be an unmanned carrer mode, but I found that by the time I had unlocked the stayputnik I was already flying beyond kerbin's SOI, and this was using only mystery goo for science.

[Red Iron Crown]

I think Squad shot themselves in the foot by referring to their component unlocking feature as a tech tree, as the tech tree isn't a "tech advancement" tree, it is a replacement for tutorials by limiting the parts available for new players.

While that's how it's been described in the past, I'm not sure it's going to stay that way moving forward with the greater focus on career mode. There's a fair bit of discussion about an actual progression of better and better parts as the tech tree is unlocked, the new ARM parts being part of this. We'll see, I guess.

[mitcheru]

Live support should be added, including food, to make probes more useful. I know ksp isn't a realistic game, but still this would make probes needed to collect sience for later manned missions. And I think that a manned space station around kerbal, or anywhere else in space, should collect sience, not much something like 10 per year, but that space station needs food, and so you got to refil it with other rockets, wich offcourse could be probes. Sorry for the bad English, I have exams this week, but still wanted to let you guys hear my opinion.

[Starwhip]

One way would also be that, instead of only a 10% science reward for transmitted data, a 50%, 75%, or even 90% transmission reward. That way, only 10% extra science is earned with a manned return mission.

Also, as mentioned above, a surface sample for rovers. That would level the playing field, as the only other benefit is the EVA and Crew Reports.

Even better? Something that ONLY probes can do. Like thermal scanning, or even have the instruments (thermometer, seismic thingymabob) only readable by probe cores. That adds more incentive for probes and manned missions.

EDIT:

So in total: Level the playing field for both probes and Kerbals; each can do nearly everything the other can do, with both not being able to do everything the other does. And let transmitted science be more valuable than the mere 10% it is now, more like 80%.

EDIT 2:

Or even have the Kerbals do one set of science: EVA and Crew reports, maybe take a surface sample. Then a probe does another set, something like this: Orbital scans, in-depth surface analysis, atmosphere, temperature, g-force, seismic readings, etc.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Starwhip

[RedPine]

To make rovers useful, a player would need a reason to make many short distance trips over an extended period of time. Multiple short, precise distances are expensive on fuel using craft - especially if weighted down by crew. What, might you ask, would involve making many short distance trips over a long period of time? There are a few possibilities:

1. Sightseeing missions: The customer wants to be escorted short distances towards many zig zagging waypoints.

2. Warmer / Colder missions: The vehicle must be stationary to collect a soil sample, which tells how close but not in which direction a special spot can be found.

3. Search Area missions: If we're looking for something really small, like a kerbal sized or smaller rock, you won't easily see it from the air. Time to rove!

Keep in mind that in the updates to come, players will do most missions for money and bragging rights, not science, so the way science is gotten will be completely re-balanced in the future. We can expect some missions to specifically require no thrusters on an unmanned, wheeled craft that needs to travel from Munar Highlands to Munar lowlands.

[Tweeker]

I'd like to see surface samples changed to require maybe 3 or 4 different sample from a few miles apart to get the science payout, instead of 1 sample from the bottom of the ladder, and right back into the lander.

[Dunbaratu]

All the current science readings work while standing still. The way to make rovers more useful is to just to invent a form of science that requires movement - and thus has to be measured from a rover.

[KerikBalm]

A camera to give science in the same catagory as an EVA report

A sample scoop

An intermediate sized, unmanned processing lab, for reusuable experiments and a moderate (or perhaps none at all) transmission boost + a way to transfer the data to a container on a sample return vehicle.

Ie, unmanned rover lands near the intersection of 3+ biomes - suppose Duna has biomes, a canyon biome, an ancient seabed biome, slopes biome, highlands biome - it would be relatively easy to land in the canyon, drive to the seafloor, then up the slopes to the highlands - your unmanned rover visits all 4 biomes, does experiments (including camera pictures and surface samples) and transmits the results, then repeats and stores the results.

Then at the end of its little stint, it loads the stored data into an unmanned sample return vehicle, which goes back to kerbin, and is recovered for full science value.