Carreer mode ruined in my perspective (Requesting modifications: Discuss!)

[Razorforce7]

Hello best of Ksp players.

Let's start by saying that I'm a relatively (new) player still after several months of playing this game.

I started playing since V0.22

I stopped playing for a while 1 - 2 weeks before the launch of V0.23

It's been since a week that I started playing again skipping version v0.23 completely and started straight off with 0.23.5 in Sandbox.

Just since 2 days I started a carreer in 0.23.5

And by reading update changes it seems that since v0.23 the game litteraly ruined certain of my game aspects.

Which I tried to google and forum search for. And painfully coming to the conclusion I might be the first and perhaps only one to discuss what I find to have become troublesome.

The Problem

This problem are the changes to the carreer mode.

My opinion is that the introduction of the carreer mode in v0.22 made the harvest of science points to easy.

Almost all of my science was gathered by probes containing SC-9001-Jr and the mystery goo container and finally gravioli detectors and thermometers and keep sending tests on biomes, through atmospheres or on low and high altitudes around a given body and repeat till 90-100% of the availale science points were gathered.

I actually send a Ion powered probe (after unlocking them in v0.22) to the Joolian system and researched 90-100% of the available science points on jool and all of it's moons on high and low orbit passes in just one single mission. That I considered to easy. I was hoping feature updates would make it harder.

And what did KSP do. They did exactly that. They made it harder by rendering a science module inoperable after a single use.

To counter that difficulty "Squad" introduced the new Mobile processing Lab MPL-LG-2.

In addition to render this module functional it needs 2 kerbals working on it. Before this module can reset the research containers.

That ^^ is what is ruiening my gameplay. And I will explain to you why.

The first reason why this new system ruins my carreer gameplay is that it forces my playstyle in a direction I do not want to go.

One of my idealistic ways of playing the carreer mode is to simulate a spacerace similar to the progression of manned spaceflight.

This means that I want to perse simulate a apollo styled mun landing. Not completely replicate apollo. But use the similar method of hohman transfer using a command module in LMO with a Eagle lander. This requires docking ports, rcs, mk2 lander can and the MK1-2 command pod. These mentioned stock parts I find benefitial for a apollo styled lander.

Parts that I have not yet unlocked. And unlocking them requires THOUSANDS of science points still. While having already gathered EVA science on both kerbin, mun and minmus. Orbiting above almost all their Biomes and both at high and low altitudes.

Gathering the necessary science points to unlock the parts I deem benefitial for a apollo styled mun landing requires me to get science from the other planets and moons. Historically accurate if you look at human spaceflight. Before the moon landing several sattelites prior to the landings went to venus and mars and other research probes.

Ofcourse IRL spaceflight science gain wasn't based on science farming by probes such as the veneras, mariners, Cosmos and Mars probes. But by researches and progresses made here on earth did docking ports and other parts become available.

I still find it mysteriously what a test on a science module and a mystery goo module allows the construction of a docking port or the production of a new fuel container. But ok, it's a game. It needs to have a unrealistic system of unlocking.

What does this all mean for me?

It means that prior to launching a apollo styled mun landing in carreer mode I firstly need to make a similar heavy styled apollo rocket to get a big science lab to the outer planets with any of my Kermans on it completely blasting my sense of realistic spacefligt out of the window.

Or alternatively I could launch 10 Sattelites into LKO and wait for a transfer window to one of my desired planets and then take all 10 of them there so that each science module can resend the test which makes science farming that way a complete grind and absolutely unrealstic and stupid and inacurate in perspective to human spaceflight.

So my suggestion to the devs (squad) and other KSP designers is to...

A: Add a module to unmanned probes in order to reset science modules

B: Overhaul the science system completely

C: Go back to how it was and implement any other additional configuration on how to make it harder to get science.

D: Yield much more then 20% on transmitting gathered science. Something in the range of 50-60% so you only need to send 3 probes per celestial body to get most science. Which still is pretty darn stupid since back in the day before apollo man had only send several probes to venus and mars. And sending several probes to Kerbins analog of planets thus eve and duna isn't gonna cut the necessary research points.

My case here is closed. I made my point. I'm curious on the comments about this.

Furthermore I would like a temporarily solution to the problem as I did progressed many hours into the carreer already and I don't want it lost.

So is there a way to cheat science points. Or to edit files so that I can make it that a science transmit yields 100% science or that it would reset automatically again as it once was.

[mythbusters844]

This has came up a few times before, and basically, the reason why science is so easy to get is for beginner players that want to play career mode before sandbox. If science was hard to get, they would never make any progress, so, science is easy to get. One thing that would be a nice addition would be a difficulty setting that could adjust the effort needed to get science.

[Razorforce7]

Not sure if you read my whole post but it's not specifically a thing with difficulty. But with grinding in case you don't want to use the new science lab. Which I don't because I don't want to get any kerbals beyond kerbin before I get the research points that unlock docking ports and other parts. Which is basically my point in a shorter text version.

[MKI]

Gameplay wise you should actually use the non realistic element to your advantage. After using probes, and smaller missions to get your science to a point where it has docking and the science lab(not hard) you should send the lab to MINIMUS. And start running mini missions with a mini lander to lab and down to each biome.

Both moons are a huge farm of science. You don't need a science lab if your going anywhere else, as expendable too and science parts work more effeciently. Only jool has enough biomes to warrant the lab as of right now.

Now about the Apollo landing, you can do it around the half way mark at anytime. Yes your won't have the new SLS parts, or the big lander can. But you don't need either to design a two man landing unit with a CM.

Really squad just needs to keep working on career mode in general. The science aspect I feel is fine, but rough around the edges. Next update should bring reputations and contracts. Contracts should change how we do career mode in some way and I do not believe the devas should go backward on development.

[Sirrobert]

I think I understand your point, even though I don't agree with it.

Most of your problems can be fixed with mods, which is the beaty of mods.

With the tree loader mod you can customize your own tech tree (or use someone else's custom one), so you could change the tree around to what you deem apropriate.

In the whole science thing though, a simple lander is much simpler than an apollo style lander. So to me personally, it'd make alot more sense to do a normal lander first.

Adding to that is the fact that, for Minmus and Mun, you really don't need apollo style.

It is however very usefull for the outer planets, where you need big ships with lots of fuel to get back home. So detatching a lander to land alone (and come back up) would save significantly on the deltaV budget.

That's why, to me (and I asume alot of people) this isn't such a problem. You don't really need apolly style landers until you go to other planets.

On the lab thing: You don't actually need the lab. You could also just bring multiple science modules with you. Until you need more than 5 sets, it's lighter (I think)

[Raven.]

There's a couple of things worth mentioning.

1: KSP is not a complete game; it is a work in progress and the science tree progression is not perfect. In fact, I don't think the debs have attempted to balance it just yet, especially considering that contracts are about to be introduced and a currency later on down the road.

2: KSP is designed to be modded. Don't like something? Then mod it to your own tastes. If one person wants to play the game a certain way, then he/she has the freedom to mod the game to their own liking. Which is exactly what I've done.

[federally]

While I agree with your problems I think your solutions are all broken.

The tech tree doesn't make sense, particularly after ARM. The big giant Rockets unlock too early, the parts you use to get science tend to unlock late and as you point out things that should unlock early unlock late. Lastly it's way way too easy to really burn through the entire tree once you figure out a couple decent techniques.

I mean the way it is now it's much easier to just build a big ass rocket to farm oodles of science then it is to build a more proper low tech Apollo style mission.

The solution I think is to rebalance the tree. Make it take much more points overall to unlock the whole thing but totally change the arrangement of the tree itself. Make it harder to unlock new rockets, easier to unlock science stuff and parts that make your current rockets more adaptable, like docking ports, easier.

[Razorforce7]

@MKI

I figure I need to send alot of probes elsewhere to do science to unlock the parts I desire (HARD) if it's just docking ports then yes it's easy.

I'm afraid you among others don't understand me really.

I want to play a carreer on the basis of manned spaceflight historicall accuracy. As close as it can get.

Thus have the 2 manned lander can, docking ports. rcs and the larger tanks.

So I don't really care whether to use the non realistic element to my advantage because I don't want to and I hate it your forced to go that science lab route.

Furthermore I know the carreer is in progress. That's why I'm posting. So to prevent the further development might disable people willing to carreer play like me to be unable doing it their way.

@Sirrobert

Many rocket parts of mods don't unlock in similar high tech trees where the parts are located I mentioned to desire.

I would like to mod research points yield for experiments. Or something to alter the gain of research. But I can't mod what I don't know how to mod. Maybe you know something that could help.

@Raven

@1: I know, it's cool. I Cant wait for it. Maybe then the whole thing comes together. But we're not yet in version 0.26.5 or v1.00 so for the time being I just spit my complaints out giving it a chance it might flow in a direction I desire.

@2: I'm experimenting on it. I don't yet know what particular mods would help me in my complaints. But if you have advice on mods I gladly hear you out.

@Federally

You are spot on. Much more then I am perhaps.

Yeah I to find the order in which parts are unlocked rather odd.

I might be retorical. But I really really believe achieving science is perhaps still as easy as in 0.22 maybe even easier.

Although I haven't tried it yet I'm sure I could send the lab everywhere I want.

I got plenty of SSTOs and a rocket capable of lifting 55tons into orbit so I'm not the biggest noob out there really.

The method of gaining science just bugs me since v0.23

That's all.

[MKI]

now i see your full point of your original post.

There historical accuracy in historical games. Kerbal Space program theme isn't trying to rehash history in order through career mode. Theres other games for that. (Orbiter with Apollo add-on) Kerbal Space Program has its own order of technical progress. Take the electricity node for example, its give the lore Kerbals figured out Space flight BEFORE electricity.(lol) It doesn't make sense but its Kerbal.

As far as balancing the career mode for "historical purposes" doesn't bode to well currently or even in long term. The game wasn't made to re imagine humans attempt at reaching the stars. The fact you start with Kerbals instead of probes might unhistorical or even unlogical, but then kerbals aren't exactly the most cautious or caring individuals (endless recruits!).

If you find it a big issue, and can't stand playing the game in its current state, look to mods. This is one of those subjects perfect for mods, not core modification to career modes current state.

Career mode was already and is still being design to replace tutorials somewhat. Especially at the start of the tree, where even decoupler aren't unlocked. It also gives science early, as its vital to figure out if you want to progress further in the tree. The lab is also given very early because if you can't get a station going using it early, you will be rewarded with more capable science missions. This doesn't go with human's spaceflight escapades, but it does work well for a game mode currently entirely based off gathering science.

You are not totally forced to go the science lab route. You are forced to go the manned route though. Without manned you lose large chunks of development by bringing the kerbal home. Truthfully the current placement of the 2 manned lander can sucks. The part itself is horribly unbalanced and not worth it beyond part count. Having 2 landercans attached to docking node for center of control makes a much more efficient build. You also get it much much earlier.

Finally there is always sandbox mode and your own imagination. Career mode as is is just limited sandbox, you can do what you want in sandbox by placing your own limitations. Which is one of the reasons why the Dev's are not focusing on things already implemented. They are working on things that will comply with older things (contracts are bound to relate to science and progression)

[BudgetHedgehog]

The change in 0.23 was to stop science spamming - there was nothing stopping you taking a tiny vessel with a massive amount of dV on a huge tour of the solar system, visiting as many places as possible, with just one Sc Jr and one goo pod, and transmitting it all back at 100%. That was, in my opinion, a really REALLY easy way to do career and if I started playing in 0.22, I'd have been put off career because of it. It just seems.. too easy.

I see your point, but I disagree with it 100%. I like a challenge (it's why I refuse to install Procedural Fairings) and I like the fact I have to make do with what I have at a given point in time. I don't have the tech to do an Apollo mission to the Mun? Then I either don't do one, or I do what I can with the relatively simple parts I have. I don't tell the developers that I'd like the game changed to fit my playing style.

If you don't like the order in which things are unlocked, there are loads of mods that change the tech tree around. Better Than Starting Manned, Realism Lite, Science Revisited, Treeloader.. If you don't like any of them, you can edit everything to suit your gameplay - the beauty of KSP is that it allows you to. Want 2m parts with a Mk1-2 pod and docking ports with the Poodle so you can make an Apollo style mission in level 3 of the tree? You're more than welcome to make it so.

We both don't want things - you don't want to be limited in career, but I don't want the game to be changed to fit one persons play style. You play your way, I'll play mine - you just have to edit words in the cfg files. If the game was changed, there'd be nothing I could do to go back to what I enjoy - using what tech I have to do as much as I can.

[Sirrobert]

Take the electricity node for example, its give the lore Kerbals figured out Space flight BEFORE electricity.(lol) It doesn't make sense but its Kerbal.

Actually, IIRC, Kerbals knew about electricity before space flight, but the big breakthrough was combining the 2

[Weegee]

If you're looking for a total career mode overhaul (and don't mind mods) then I suggest BTSM. It changes the whole feel of the game, but it is a pretty focused experience. You may not like it, but it's worth a shot. Do note that it isn't designed to work with any other mods (besides deadly re-entry, which is required), so if you use other mods you may want to consider that.

I do hope that Squad will change up career mode later on, but BTSM is a good alternative for the time being.

[Scoundrel]

I agree with the OP to a degree, as I too have a couple of issues with career mode... though I will also add the caveat that I am aware that career mode is a long way off from being finished.

1. It shouldn't be called science points and a tech tree; they should be called what they are: exploration points and the parts priority tree. It would alleviate most of the confusion people have with what it is Squad is attempting to do with career mode.
   
2. The parts priority tree (aka tech tree) shouldn't have its pathways hidden. It doesn't give any sense of "discovery" and, quite honestly, is nothing more than a source of minor annoyance as we hunt for the best path to unlock essentials like ladders and heavy landing gear... especially since a player can go to the KSP Wiki and see the pathway anyways. Make the whole thing visible right off the start so we players can do what Squad says the damned thing is supposed allow us to do: play the game our way!
   
3. Anything but the basic radio antennae is a waste of power as the transmission rate is pointless. You would think that each comms unit would have a maximum range, and that you could get 100% science for a transmission close to Kerbin, and have it taper off log₁₀ (signal vs noise style) to the point where science is 0% if you use the wrong antennae for too far a distance (yes I know that only really applies to analog, but it's KSP).
   

Now, that said, I personally think science points are a weak mechanic when it comes to unlocking parts. From a game design perspective (and I admit this is a broad, generalized and not very well thought out suggestion) a superior solution would be to eliminate the tech tree and implement contracts that give the player a few new parts with which to achieve an objective (be it getting a satellite into orbit or taking a few temperatures on minmus with 60%+ transmission reception), the successful completion of which unlocks those parts for use along with other contracts. It gets rid of science mining, lets the player know what to expect next, and can easily double as a tutorial as contract requirements become more and more complex and ambitious.

Heck, if multiple contracts will unlock the same part, and the number of contracts increases by 2 for every contract attempted, it even will permit failure to be an option since the player can simply do another contract without being crippled by loss of money as the essential parts will always be available to the player. In fact it could even be adjusted so the player gains more money for completing the contract by not using those non-essential contract parts, adding both a layer of challenge and a greater payout to the player for completing it with as few parts as possible.

Complexity through superior simplicity!

Sadly, I know things will never be implemented that way... but we can dream, can't we?

Can't we?

Edited April 19, 2014 by Scoundrel

[Paul Kingtiger]

There's a lot of stuff in the tech tree that doesn't make sense, and unfortunately I don't think it will change that much.

Take probes for example. They come after manned flight, presumably because Squad want Kerbals to be a part of the game from the start. But there's no advantage to using probes over manned flight. Life support would be a big disadvantage to manned craft, especially for longer missions, but I'm not sure even simple life support is coming to the stock game. The only other metric I can see to balance probes vs manned is reputation loss on loosing a Kerbal, question is will that be enough?

Exposing the entire tech tree would be a great help though, and I agree hiding it seems pointless.

I would also introduce science collection in sandbox mode so that people can collect and keep score of science even if they don't want the other career stuff.

Finally I would introduce part improvement as tech unlocks, things like weight reduction or ISP improvement, so that you could have more tech improvement without additional parts.

[juvilado]

I started playing at .23 and found science quite balanced, except maybe its too easy and sometimes foolish some science collected in Kerbin.

Id consider a game flaw if i could harvest 2000 science in the first mission and unlock half science tree in one strike!

Well, to be honest, i would include some futuristic (non scy fy) parts, because the tech 30 years beyond today for instance will give us new parts and materials, and every player will welcome that, wont we?

Edited April 19, 2014 by juvilado

[JRT1712]

You could try going into the science defs and reducing the yields.

I'm playing a career mode where all the yields have been divided by ten with the exception of gravioli which I think is only by a factor of five. The biggest yields now come from the recovery of vessels in the variety of situations at celestial bodies.