Meat Eater vs. Vegetarian debate

[MedwedianPresident]

MEAT EATER VS. VEGETARIAN

DEBATE

Here is the thread to argue for or against the consumption of meat and other animal products. Feel free to post interesting arguments and facts along with recipes and tips for your respective diet; but keep in mind that this is a debate thread and there should be discussion between the sides.

MY OPINION ON MEAT

I am a keen meat eater and have been so always; while a snack can be just a piece of cheese or a bread with butter for me, a real meal must have some sort of meat in it. I do not eat fish and seafood because I have had a serious allergy when I was a child.

I think that humans have the full right to eat whatever they want as long as it is not dangerous; it does not matter whether it comes from animals, plants or mushrooms (Mushrooms are NOT plants!). I am not against the consumption of vegetables as they make great side dishes and still remain healthy and tasty; but I think that humans have the complete right to kill and eat animals as our ancestors fought our way up the food chain. Moreover, there is evidence for that not only in stone age drawings of people with bows killing bisons but also biological facts supporting the human omnivorism. Although longer than that of a carnivore, but shorter than that of a herbivore, our intensines are adapted for extracting both proteins and vitamins from food. I think that meat is the best source of protein and should be given at least one third of the plate - in fact, if we did not eat red meat during the stone age our brains would be smaller by 5 percent.

Meat, in general, is not automatically unhealthy; not only (especially red meat) gives it large amounts of iron and protein but also the word "Meat" is not a synonym to the word "Fat" - Bison or Wild meat in fact contains only small amounts of it as the animals run around. Furthermore, even "fat" meats such as pork are important for living.

As a piece of evidence; a study was once performed on two groups of african children. One was given meat while the other was given grains - after six months both groups met for mathematical tests. The group which was given meat was much better at solving the problems prepared for them.

We humans were born to eat meat. We would be natural vegetarians if we'd evolved from cows; but we evolved from different animals, and as such we have the full right to eat meat.

To finalise my argument, three words:

MEAT. IS. DELICIOUS.

[xenomorph555]

A lot of animals eat meat so it is fine, plus tasty

[TechnicalK3rbal]

I agree with both of you.

[Idobox]

We are apes, and not especially well adapted to eat meat. Check healthy food for carnivorous pets like dogs and cats, that are much better adapted to eat meat: it's full of vegetables.

From a scientific point of view, low calorie with small amounts of fish is pretty much the healthiest diet possible.

That being said, I fill my body with lots of unhealthy stuff, and meat tastes amazing.

[Scotius]

Some anthropologists claim that brains of our ancestors started growing when they supplemented their diet with larger amounts of meat available on savannas (bigger animals living there in greater amounts). Vegetarian gorillas, while huge and physically imposing are arguably less intelligent than omnivorous chimpanzees (and less numerous in the wilds). But plants are much more economic - several people can survive on the same amount of plant matter needed to raise one cow.

[hugix]

I think that humans have the full right to eat whatever they want as long as it is not dangerous;

I do not agree with that last statement regarding safety. We humans have the right to stuff our body with whatever pleases us. I strongly diosagree with the goverment telling us what we can and cannot consume. Should we ban beer and wine because it is a risk to our health? Ban medications because the side effects are bad for us?

We as humans can do what we please as long as we don't damage other humans doing it. (Wat u wilt dat u niet geschied.... Doe dat ook een ander niet).

Eating meat is damaging to the animals (very damaging to say the least).

[Soda Popinski]

We are apes, and not especially well adapted to eat meat. Check healthy food for carnivorous pets like dogs and cats, that are much better adapted to eat meat: it's full of vegetables.

From a scientific point of view, low calorie with small amounts of fish is pretty much the healthiest diet possible.

That being said, I fill my body with lots of unhealthy stuff, and meat tastes amazing.

While we're not as adapted as true carnivores to eating meat, we are definitely more adapted than other primates. Our gastrointestinal (GI) tract is a lot shorter and simpler than, say a gorilla's. This is because we've evolved to eat easier to digest food. That means a higher proportion of meat (much easier to turn meat into new meat [us], than to turn vegetables into new meat). It also means cooked food, as it's easier to break down.

That said, is meat unhealthy? Too much of it is. So is too little of it (which is why strict vegetarians need to supplement their diets with essential nutrients or eat a wide enough variety to get them all). We Americans surely eat more meat than we need to. My main guilt about eating meat is it's impact on the environment (consumes way more resources to make a pound of cow than several pounds of vegetables). I have no qualms about the morals of eating livestock, but that's your own judgement call.

[vger]

My opinion on the whole Vegan vs. Meat fiasco reminds me a lot of the abortion debate. It all depends on where you want to draw your line, but none of it can be defined as some kind of universal law.

The argument that animals have more of a right to life than plants is purely based on perception.

Just as some animal rights activists worry more about baby seals being clubbed than alligators being turned into handbags (mammals are cute and cuddly and therefore get more sympathy than reptiles), there seems to be an assumption that because animals are easier to relate to (they do a lot of the same things we do), they are 'more alive' than plants. Some studies even suggest that plants can feel pain, albeit in a different way from a central nervous system. They can even communicate with each other using chemical signals. If we were honest with ourselves about it, we'd all have to figure out a diet based on dirt and rocks.

On the nutritional side of it, I have found no practical way of living a healthy diet strictly on fruits and vegetables. At the very least, you'll have to take nutritional supplements to compensate. Some people are just 'tough' enough that they can go for long periods of malnutrition without experiencing any problems (heck, some POW's survived for decades on bread and water), but it WILL take its toll on the body. Some people have become very ill trying to live on a strictly plant-based diet. And good luck to anyone trying it who has a nightshade allergy, since nightshades are among the most important vegetables.

[Kryten]

While we're not as adapted as true carnivores to eating meat, we are definitely more adapted than other primates. Our gastrointestinal (GI) tract is a lot shorter and simpler than, say a gorilla's. This is because we've evolved to eat easier to digest food. That means a higher proportion of meat (much easier to turn meat into new meat [us], than to turn vegetables into new meat). It also means cooked food, as it's easier to break down.

Gorillas aren't exactly typical primates, they're adapted to eating foliage-very high-cellulose, nutrient-poor stuff. Look at something adapted to eating more easily digestible plant materials (fruits, tubers, et.c.) and you'll find something similar to the human G.I tract.

[vger]

Gorillas aren't exactly typical primates, they're adapted to eating foliage-very high-cellulose, nutrient-poor stuff. Look at something adapted to eating more easily digestible plant materials (fruits, tubers, et.c.) and you'll find something similar to the human G.I tract.

Maybe we have to blame the ice age for the switch to an omnivorous diet. There probably simply wasn't enough plant life to sustain humans living in the colder climates.

[Simon Ross]

We became omnivorous for a very good, very simple reason, it maximizes our chances of survival. As someone has already mentioned, there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between brain development and the eating of meat, though this may simply be natural evolutionary pressure exerted on any hunting animal to improve it's kill ratio during hunting.

In the end, to eat another animal is simply an ethical choice which having an advanced society allows us to have, for myself, I could never live without bacon sarnies :-)

[DaveofDefeat]

Bacon

/thread

[Javster]

"Vegetarianism is a huge missed steak"

[EdFred]

There is no winning this argument, but I present two biological traits we share with all terrestrial predators:

1) Binocular vision for hunting prey. You don't need depth perception to eat plants.

2) Canines for tearing into tasty delicious meat.

But we truly are omnivores .

[szputnyik]

I love eating meat, it makes me feel full of energy, and if I feel weak, sick or have a headache, it seems to stop shortly after ingesting it. I don't have a problem with vegetarians, but there are people who try to make their dogs, or even worse, their cats vegetarians, because "if I can do it, so can they" they think. I think that borders on animal abuse, especially for cats, since they are obligate carnivores.

[Soda Popinski]

Gorillas aren't exactly typical primates, they're adapted to eating foliage-very high-cellulose, nutrient-poor stuff. Look at something adapted to eating more easily digestible plant materials (fruits, tubers, et.c.) and you'll find something similar to the human G.I tract.

Good point. We're not too far off from chimpanzees GI tract-wise. They eat a lot of tubers and fruits, but they also do hunt a bit.

There is no winning this argument, but I present two biological traits we share with all terrestrial predators:

1) Binocular vision for hunting prey. You don't need depth perception to eat plants.

...

Binocular vision is also a trait we share with other primates and pretty much anything arboreal. You need good depth perception when jumping branch to branch.

I don't think anybody is disagreeing we evolved as omnivores. I guess the debate is, should we continue to be omnivores, when we have the ability to reduce or eliminate our meat consumption.

Anyway. This seems mostly a one sided debate, as I don't recall anyone really arguing we should all go vegetarian.

[RuBisCO]

Meat is wasteful: Every kg or grain-fed cow is 10 kg of high-protein grains that could have fed people

Meat is suffering: Factory farming is inhuman and animals feel pain and have basic emotions, even chickens.

What is the argument so far give for meat, That we evolved to be carnivores? We also evolved to form bands of less then 150, hold territory and kill each other in tribal warfare. We have been overriding our evolution and this is generally been for the better! Appealing to what we evolved for is as backwards as appealing to tradition.

Imagine soon we will be able to grow animal muscle tissue in vats, meat without suffering, heck we can already replace all meat protein with vegetable sources if only people could get over the want for the flavor and texture of "meat" and replace it with muck duck and tofu.

[vger]

I love eating meat, it makes me feel full of energy, and if I feel weak, sick or have a headache, it seems to stop shortly after ingesting it.

One of the other issues I've always had with this, also fits in with an issue that I have with medicine, particularly when it comes to nutrition.

There are lot of people out there who have had an imbalance of some sort, whether it be nutritional, thyroid, hormones, etc, who have had to get supplementation in order to feel better. The trouble is, there are many times where an individual gets their levels to be within the accepted normal range, yet they still FEEL awful. Sometimes these people have to jump from doc to doc until they find one who doesn't ONLY look at the lab work, but also considers how the patient feels. Further experimentation with dosages then reveals that the person feels fine, when they are OUTSIDE the accepted healthy range of the test results.

Clearly, we're not all wired quite the same. We look different, come in all shapes in sizes, have different skin colors, sexual preferences, taste preferences (and remember, a lot of the reason taste exists is so in the absence of civilization, we more or less could instinctively eat what our bodies needed), etc. With such diversity, it seems silly to assume that what is optimal for one person is going to be the same for another, and yet we do that very thing all the time. We all probably have different needs.

Take Celiac Disease for example. The genes that increase the likelihood of getting it is most commonly found in people who are of European descent. It is much less commonly found in people who are from further East. I rather doubt it's a mere coincidence that it happens to be the same region where wheat originated.

Meat is suffering: Factory farming is inhuman and animals feel pain and have basic emotions, even chickens.

And here's that assumption I referred to earlier, that plants are less deserving of life.

Edited April 23, 2014 by vger

[jwenting]

Peope Eating Tasty Animals

[EdFred]

How do you know if someone is a vegetarian?

They will tell you.

(and tell you, and tell you, and tell you, and...)

[KerikBalm]

That is not true, but a common ad hominem argument devoid of any logical argument.

Your earlier post (#14) was completely devoid of sound logic.

That said:

We evolved eating meat as part of our diet.

Why do we need vitamin C? many other animals can synthesize it. However, animals that have a high-fruit diet get plenty of vitamin C, if you eat alot of fruit, the vitamin C synthesis pathway can become mutated or shut off, or completely deleted with no ill effects.

We clearly did not evolve from hypercarnivores.

But in addition to needing stuff like vitamin C, we also require 8 essential amino acide - many other things can synthesize all 20 standard amino acids from any of the other 19.

We cannot, we can only synthesize 12 of them, therefore it seems we evolved with an ample supply of those 8 - suggesting carnivory*.

Then there are the ethical arguments.... either tied to sentience, or tied to genetic distance.

I sometime do regret the way animals are killed for my meat.... but it is so tasty! I have reduced my meat intake, but I won't stop completely.

Then there is the environmental/economic/population pressure argument: You can feed more people if everyone eats a vegetarian diet.

* It is possible to have a vegetarian diet supply those 8 essential amino acids. An appropriate mixture of beans, nuts, and legumes should do. You certainly won't get it only from eating lettuce, or even lettuce+fruit. And IIRC, you need beans and nuts, not beans or nuts...

Of course, you can also supplement with cheese, which is relatively efficient as far as production of food, and that way you don't kill the animals (but what do you do with the excess males?! yea, sell veal.... oh well)

Along those lines, there are some that argue we should switch to an insect based protein supply.

I don't empathize much with insects, and it is more efficient at feeding people.... but... eww..... I'd rather go straight from eating only chickens (more efficient than beef) to eating beans and nuts... because I won't be chowing down on cockroaches...

[Simon Ross]

Meat is wasteful: Every kg or grain-fed cow is 10 kg of high-protein grains that could have fed people

Meat is suffering: Factory farming is inhuman and animals feel pain and have basic emotions, even chickens.

What is the argument so far give for meat, That we evolved to be carnivores? We also evolved to form bands of less then 150, hold territory and kill each other in tribal warfare. We have been overriding our evolution and this is generally been for the better! Appealing to what we evolved for is as backwards as appealing to tradition.

Imagine soon we will be able to grow animal muscle tissue in vats, meat without suffering, heck we can already replace all meat protein with vegetable sources if only people could get over the want for the flavor and texture of "meat" and replace it with muck duck and tofu.

While I agree with your views on 'battery' farms, the argument that 1Kg of grain fed cow equates to 10Kg of high protein grain is actually a bit of a false argument. One of the reasons meat is still very popular all over the world is simply that it is a VERY good energy source, much more so then any grain gram for gram, in fact the only vegetable to even come to meat in terms of calorific value is the humble potato.

Basically you would have to eat a heck of a lot more grain then meat to achieve the same calorific value as part of your diet as well as taking supplements to fill in the gaps of a non meat diet

[Stargate525]

While I agree with your views on 'battery' farms, the argument that 1Kg of grain fed cow equates to 10Kg of high protein grain is actually a bit of a false argument. One of the reasons meat is still very popular all over the world is simply that it is a VERY good energy source, much more so then any grain gram for gram, in fact the only vegetable to even come to meat in terms of calorific value is the humble potato.

It's also a LOT less demanding for raising. A strict plant-only farming scheme requires fertile soil. Most animals, however, will happily graze on scrub. It's why cattle ranching is huge in the southwest; not enough water for grains, but plenty for grazing.

Add that to the fact that we have domesticated cattle, boars, chickens, sheep all to the point where they are almost incapable of survival in the wild... Paradoxically, to argue against their being eaten is almost to argue for their extinction. In the case of cattle, sheep, and chickens, we do get additional stuff from them. But chickens stop laying, cattle go past calving. Not eating them is simply a waste of a good amount of meat.

[RuBisCO]

While I agree with your views on 'battery' farms, the argument that 1Kg of grain fed cow equates to 10Kg of high protein grain is actually a bit of a false argument. One of the reasons meat is still very popular all over the world is simply that it is a VERY good energy source, much more so then any grain gram for gram, in fact the only vegetable to even come to meat in terms of calorific value is the humble potato.

Think of it this way: one person eating meat is equal to ten people eat bread, now if we have 9 of those people die of starvation then that one left can eat meat. A vegetarian diet ultimately requires much less land and energy imputs then a modern meat diet for the same nutritional and caloric output, sure you might need to eat more bread, soy, beans, etc, by volume then meat, maybe even by mass, but to make meat today requires litterally feeding animals food people could have eaten, to make much less meat in mass and volume and energy content then was put in. Dispite the energy denisty of protein it self the amount of energy wasted in making it is what counts.

In the developing countries and historically animals eat what humans could not, lived on fallow or marginal lands of limited suitability for argiculture, but those where the days where meat was a one meal out of three luxury at best, not where meat was the primary and largest course of every meal. Look at the rate ofobsesity in developed countries: all that animal fat and protein, greesy burgers, honstly do we really need the energy dense food we eat, replace it with lower energy food of the same volume would must likely help people trim down and save alot of lives from heart disease.

[Pds314]

My argument: meat doesn't taste good to me. It is generally less healthy, and we should avoid killing semi-sentient species like pigs. But eat all of the beef and chicken you want.