Meat Eater vs. Vegetarian debate

[EdFred]

That is not true, but a common ad hominem argument devoid of any logical argument.

Your earlier post (#14) was completely devoid of sound logic.

It wasn't an argument, it was a joke - laced with some truth. Maybe it is just the peoples' personalities I've encountered that feel the fact to bring up repeatedly they are vegetarian. There are a number of foods that I do not eat, but I do not constantly announce that I don't eat it. But every vegetarian I have met (probably over 50 of them) have felt the need to make it known to everyone around they are vegetarian - and repeat it, even though they've already told us.

The same goes for pilots.

As far as post 14, you're free to make that statement, and I will simply say you aren't looking at it close enough. Think it through, to the logical and and you'll see it.

[Kryten]

It wasn't an argument, it was a joke - laced with some truth. Maybe it is just the peoples' personalities I've encountered that feel the fact to bring up repeatedly they are vegetarian. There are a number of foods that I do not eat, but I do not constantly announce that I don't eat it. But every vegetarian I have met (probably over 50 of them) have felt the need to make it known to everyone around they are vegetarian - and repeat it, even though they've already told us.

All the christians I know insisted on telling me about it. All of the people in support of the monarchy insisted on telling me about it, everyone that prefers baths instead of showers insisted on telling me about it...

All the vegetarians you know told you about it because if they didn't tell you, you wouldn't know. This is basic logic.

[szputnyik]

I think what EdFred is trying to say is that there is someone who for example doesn't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev, but he doesn't go around repeating "Hi! I'm John, and I don't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev!"

[Alchemist]

What I can say from my experience is: couple days without adequate supply of proteins and my brain starts lacking processing power. Of course, not every job requires top-notch cognitive performance, but properly balanced diet is highly recommended. If you can properly replace meat with plant food it's good.

But I can't understand people who just deprive themselves of proteins. You might survive on imbalanced diet, but it's also putting your body into severe protein economy mode. Another stupid thing is considering this a diet - lack or vital components just leads to more hunger up to the point you'll consume much more calories.

[EdFred]

All the christians I know insisted on telling me about it. All of the people in support of the monarchy insisted on telling me about it, everyone that prefers baths instead of showers insisted on telling me about it...

All the vegetarians you know told you about it because if they didn't tell you, you wouldn't know. This is basic logic.

The difference is, it can come up in casual conversation or by my asking, it doesn't have to be announced. In my experience it is generally announced. Just like with the Christians and Monarchists you encounter. Do you ask them about it, or do they tell you about it? There's a subtle difference.

I think what EdFred is trying to say is that there is someone who for example doesn't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev, but he doesn't go around repeating "Hi! I'm John, and I don't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev!"

Exactly.

[Kryten]

The difference is, it can come up in casual conversation or by my asking, it doesn't have to be announced. In my experience is generally announced. Just like with the Christians and Monarchists you encounter. Do you ask them about it, or do they tell you about it?

It's not something I'd ask about, but that wasn't my point. You're assuming all vegetarians are like that because they're the only ones you'd know about. Obviously the most extreme members of a group are going to be the most vocal, it doesn't mean all or most are extreme.

[vger]

It's also a LOT less demanding for raising. A strict plant-only farming scheme requires fertile soil. Most animals, however, will happily graze on scrub. It's why cattle ranching is huge in the southwest; not enough water for grains, but plenty for grazing.

This also makes for a convenient farming cycle. Raise animals on poor soil and over time they'll fertilize it for you.

I think what EdFred is trying to say is that there is someone who for example doesn't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev, but he doesn't go around repeating "Hi! I'm John, and I don't eat Stuffed Potatoes, Raspberries and Chicken Kiev!"

Groups/labels typically get judged by their most outspoken members. You say "Muslim" and people think "Suicide Bomber."

"Liberal: Welfare Queen"

"Republican: Woman Hater."

Etc, etc, etc. Doesn't matter if those examples are in the extreme minority, it's the extreme examples that always end up being the stereotype.

In the case of vegetarian/vegan, the most outspoken of them don't even need to tell you that's what they are. You can figure it out really quickly just by the disgusted way they talk when you grab for a buffalo wing. They ask "You eat meat?" but it comes out sounding like, "You ignorant savage!"

Edited April 23, 2014 by vger

[RuBisCO]

Well sure there are lots of vegetarian who are

who want everyone to know they are hollier then your, but that not a reason to not become a vegetarian. My policy is if someone makes me food, I eat it regardless of what it is, and say it was "divine". When I was in Peace Corps I eat alot of chicken livers and boiled catapillers, no objection, goat is a delicious meat by the way. When I buy and make food for my self though, no meat.

[Dodgey]

Off topic, I just wanted to say that even though it is a pretty touchy subject the temperature is still pretty cool in here, just goes to show how good the majority of this community is.

[SargeRho]

I'm all for eating meat, and if someone doesn't want to eat meat, that's his choice, I won't think less of them or anything.

I do get annoyed by the "in my faceness" of many Vegans however.

[iDan122]

I do not agree with that last statement regarding safety. We humans have the right to stuff our body with whatever pleases us. I strongly diosagree with the goverment telling us what we can and cannot consume. Should we ban beer and wine because it is a risk to our health? Ban medications because the side effects are bad for us?

We as humans can do what we please as long as we don't damage other humans doing it. (Wat u wilt dat u niet geschied.... Doe dat ook een ander niet).

Eating meat is damaging to the animals (very damaging to say the least).

I think beer should be banned completely. It is the main cause of drunk driving. We can keep wine and champagne since it is drunk often during celebrations in moderate portions, which is actually healthy combined with a full stomach.

I think becoming vegetarian doesn't make sense. It is refusing to act human, aka feeding on other species. If there are cows that can be eaten, I thing we should take full advantage of what we have. And why should restaurants make a special diet meal for vegetarians who are so rare? In my opinion being a vegetarian is quite illogical.

[vger]

I think beer should be banned completely. It is the main cause of drunk driving. We can keep wine and champagne since it is drunk often during celebrations in moderate portions, which is actually healthy combined with a full stomach.

Gosh, I can't even imagine getting drunk on beer. It takes so unbelievably long compared to other alcohols, and it fills your belly a lot quicker.

And why should restaurants make a special diet meal for vegetarians who are so rare?

Alright, that's a little extreme. There are a LOT of VERY tasty vegan meals out there, so from a business perspective, there's no logical reason to not include them.

Edited April 23, 2014 by vger

[Red Iron Crown]

I know many vegetarians, a few of of whom fall into the proselytizing, must-tell-everyone-meat-is-murder category, but most of whom just don't eat meat and don't care if I do or anyone else does. It's a personal choice for them. Same with religious people, most just believe what they believe without bothering anyone else but the few who push their beliefs on others are more memorable so they seem (falsely) to make up the majority.

I'm a meat-eater, but I respect those who choose to live differently and ask that they treat me with the same courtesy.

[andrewas]

I think beer should be banned completely. It is the main cause of drunk driving.

No. The main cause of drunk driving is stupid drunks. Take beer away .. over my dead body, BTW, if you're doing this in the UK .. and some other drink will take its place. You will still have people climbing into cars drunk, telling themselves that they can handle it, and killing some poor bugger who just wanted to get home and go to bed.

[Idobox]

Take beer away, and people will get drunk on wine or antifreeze or whatever is available.

A grown up with a sedentary life style needs almost no meat in its diet to stay healthy, and a few eggs a week are plenty enough. We eat meat because it taste good, the same way we eat fat, because we evolved to binge on high calorie food, and it's a bad habit when food is cheap and easily accessible.

There is no health reason to eat meat more than once, maybe twice a week.

I eat meat, I enjoy it. But I don't try to justify it by science, I eat it because I like it and don't feel bad about animals being butchered.

[KASASpace]

Meat should be eaten in conjunction with plants.

If I recall correctly:

After the mastery of fire, the meat from hunting was cooked regularly. This increase in protein ultimately led to the size of the brain increasing.

So, protein is good for the brain, and meat has more protein per x unit.

Plus, meat has more proteins, and so less meat is eaten to get specific proteins, whereas multiple plants would have to be grown to get those same proteins.

[mrfox]

A negative of a carnivourous diet is that you have a greater exposure to to all the dieseases, poisons, chemicals and heavy metals ingested downstream in the foodchain.

[vger]

A negative of a carnivourous diet is that you have a greater exposure to to all the dieseases, poisons, chemicals and heavy metals ingested downstream in the foodchain.

All part of the same cycle really. If it's in the animals, it's in the dirt. If it's in the dirt, it's in the plants.

[KASASpace]

A negative of a carnivourous diet is that you have a greater exposure to to all the dieseases, poisons, chemicals and heavy metals ingested downstream in the foodchain.

That's why it was cooked. Cooking kills (or neutralizes) the majority of diseases. Now poisons, eh, I'll give you that. But now we can actually prevent the meat sources from getting any of that.

[Red Iron Crown]

After the mastery of fire, the meat from hunting was cooked regularly. This increase in protein ultimately led to the size of the brain increasing.

It was increased brain size and intelligence that permitted the mastery of fire. Our ancestors were eating meat long before fire.

[Nuke]

as someone who likes to grill, id be insane if i didnt eat meat. i love me some bbq. i eat my steak rare. ive been known to hunt and fish and i eat what i kill. wild game is a lot healthier than the factory animal meat you get at the store.

that said, the worst thing about american cooking is we have no idea what to do with vegetables. for 3 generations our family has mindlessly thrown veggies into a pan and boiled them. it is shameful that we have so many tasty things to do with meat, yet almost no idea what to do with veggies. it occurred to me awhile back that when eating murican staples i almost never served veggies that weren't corn, peas, or potatoes. but then when i go get chinese food or italian food veggies are half the meal and i eat them. the basic stir fry is a delicious way to get your vegies in. so i picked up asian cooking.

were omnivores so you should eat a little of everything. especially bacon.

[mrfox]

All part of the same cycle really. If it's in the animals, it's in the dirt. If it's in the dirt, it's in the plants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomagnification

[-Velocity-]

I think that humans have the full right to eat whatever they want as long as it is not dangerous;

It's OK to eat other humans?

I believe that killing and eating self-aware, sentient beings (such as humans, dolphins, apes, elephants, and maybe even a handful of bird species) is an affront to the sanctity and dignity of intelligent beings everywhere. No intelligent being should be killed by another intelligent being JUST TO BE SERVED UP ON A DINNER PLATE. It's revolting. It is also displaying of an utter lack of regard to the suffering of those beings. Why kill an intelligent being when it would be so much easier to just kill a stupid one? I used to live on a farm. Cows are STUPID. They have personalities, they have a limited sentience, yes, but it is not even close to the level displayed by the self-aware animal species. The ability for cows to suffer is much reduced compared to the ability for a human to suffer.

Anyway, if you kill intelligent species for nothing more than their flesh (or their tusks, or fur, or whatever), you would really have no moral standing AT ALL to complain if, like, aliens landed and decided to dine on YOU. You'd be a total hypocrite to object on moral grounds to being eaten.

Intelligent, self-aware beings deserve protection, NO MATTER THE SPECIES. We need to step up our efforts to protect our ape cousins; we need to stop the barbaric slaughter of whales and dolphins by the Japanese, and we need to closely examine the intelligent animals we keep in captivity, and determine if it is really humane and necessary to keep them. We need to do these things because it's the right thing to do.

But you never know- with the potential advent of machine intelligences in the coming decades, we might find OURSELVES to be an "inferior" species on this planet in the not-too-distant future. In case that comes to pass, I think it is IMPORTANT to set the moral high ground now, while there is still time. We should treat our "inferiors" as we would want our "superiors" to treat us!!!

Anyway, I'm hungry. I think I'll go grab a cheeseburger

[Aghanim]

Well everyone is debating meat vs vegetarian from a ethical standpoint, but how about environmental standpoint? They said that meat causes global warming. Is it true? If its true, is there any other solution other than to stop eating meat?

[vger]

Nuke, I've been trying to get the hang of Eastern cooking for quite a while now, still failing miserably.

I must say, it's amazing I haven't seen companies like Hamburger Helper or Knorr selling more pre-made mixes for such dishes.

Well everyone is debating meat vs vegetarian from a ethical standpoint, but how about environmental standpoint? They said that meat causes global warming. Is it true? If its true, is there any other solution other than to stop eating meat?

The main culprit seems to be cows, not meat in general. They fart.... a LOT. And Methane has a lot more potency to do damage than CO2.

Though frankly, I'd be more interested in seeing if it might be possible to harvest the methane, at least at night when the cows are indoors (and no, I'm not suggesting we 'plug' them into anything).

Edited April 23, 2014 by vger