Yuegong-1 - China's Moon Base

[RuBisCO]

No, no.

I'm pointing out their inefficiency and red tape.

China doesn't solve problems by being efficient, it solves them by throwing resources at said problem until it isn't a problem.

And that has very little to do with a lunar outpost program. Like you said: get back on topic... wait what was the topic?

[vger]

And that has very little to do with a lunar outpost program. Like you said: get back on topic... wait what was the topic?

A highly speculative future mission? Which calls for a lot of... speculation?

[Tinyboss]

Obviously photoshopped.

[rkman]

50 years of paper study doesn't make much of a good start.

Ah, perhaps, but it took 300 years of dreaming and some 30 years of study (First mission proposed in 1939 by British Interplanetary Society) to reach the Moon.

To me the question is, when it comes to a base on the Moon (let alone on Mars), are we/the Chinese in the dreaming phase or in the planning phase? Is it decades in the future or centuries in the future? Can we plan for things for which we not yet have the technology (self-sustaining artificial biosphere for food supply)?

[Red Iron Crown]

I'm not sure a Moon base requires a self-sustaining biosphere, it's close enough that regular supply runs are feasible. Would be an interesting place to develop such things for use at more difficult to resupply locations, though. A moon base is within current technology's limits.

As to dreaming versus planning, I think for China it's a long term plan, which is very similar to a dream.

[vger]

I'm not sure a Moon base requires a self-sustaining biosphere, it's close enough that regular supply runs are feasible. Would be an interesting place to develop such things for use at more difficult to resupply locations, though. A moon base is within current technology's limits.

As to dreaming versus planning, I think for China it's a long term plan, which is very similar to a dream.

Heh, I really can't understand why Mars One is a thing. Go to the moon first. There's still plenty to study there, and as far as I can guess, the ONLY thing Mars might provide for self-sufficiency that the moon can't, is wind. You also have the advantage of being able to get people home relatively quickly if something goes wrong. And in the meantime, you can learn from your mistakes with minimal risk.

[NERVAfan]

Heh, I really can't understand why Mars One is a thing.

IMO because they think people will be more interested in Mars because "we've done the Moon*", and their plan requires public interest for its funding.

*Yes, I know that's a silly way to look at it...

as far as I can guess, the ONLY thing Mars might provide for self-sufficiency that the moon can't, is wind.

I don't think that is quite fair. The only places on the Moon with water ice have no sunlight; on Mars, there's at least the possibility of getting solar power and water in the same place (though I don't know if there is near-surface ice in the low-latitude regions that are much better for solar power). Also, Mars has a CO2 atmosphere which can be turned into oxygen via photosynthesis (algae tanks, greenhouses, whatever), or into methane (for fuel) and water by the Sabatier reaction (which does require a store of hydrogen, but that's only a very small fraction of the mass.

There's real potential for doing stuff with the Lunar polar volatiles in the permanently-shaded craters, but it is more limited than Mars.

[Herr Doktor Strangemember]

Hello all first post and all that I had planned a more 'normal' into but pulled into the discussion.

NASA is forbidden from working with China by act of Congress, as of April 2011 they cannot aid, or plan ANY operation with China.

Here is the exact wording.

-Public Law 112-55, SEC. 539

None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) or the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) to develop, design, plan, promulgate, implement, or execute a bilateral policy, program, order, or contract of any kind to participate, collaborate, or coordinate bilaterally in any way with China.

Regards.

[kiwi1960]

With all due respect to Herr Doktor.... and to everyone else reading this...

Let me tell you all a story about the history of China, recent history mostly...

Firstly, China is old, I mean, its FREAKING old, which makes them an adult in the world of nations, who are mostly teenagers. Like any adult, it has learnt over time to plan ahead, to be patient, to make plans and build slowly from there.

It wanted a huge wall to keep the bad men out... it took many many ... a freaking LOT of years to get that wall built, but they got it done, they suffered while the wall was still not even half done by the barbarians who continued to ****, burn and steal .... but they were focussed on the goal, then kept building, and one day, it was completed...

just in time for it to be a tourist attraction. But that is OK, its still completed.

Patience is the key... a lesson Mao learned way back in the early 1930's when he was fighting the Japanese... he knew the Japanese couldn't last forever, so he at the Nationalists kissed and made up and mostly fought side by side, till the Japanese made a boo boo and bombed the krap out of Perl Harbor...

And then the Americans started helping the Nationalists and.. not so much the Communists.... but Mao was patient, he knew the numbers were on his side, and then in two blinding flashes of light which destroyed two cities, Japan surrendered... and then the Americans started helping the Nationalists beat up the Commies.... this upset Mao because he was a Commie.... but he was still patient, he knew he would win... and in 1949, he did win... a united China under communist rule, with him as the leader...

This was bad, because Mao was in fact an idiot.... for example, he wanted to show the world that China was advanced, and not backward, so he ordered everyone to melt all the steel they had in big fires .... and this is what they did.... all they ended up with was big piles of useless slag metal that couldn't be used for anything... and of course, the people had no pots or plates or cups.... but that was OK... the people were patient... they knew Mao couldn't live forever.....

Then he died.... and his widow took over, she wasn't so much an idiot as evil.... there were purges.... but the people, they were patient.... they knew sooner or later the evil old hag would fall off her mighty horse...

and she did...

(they also did not need to invade Taiwan, which is where the Nationalists ran to after they lost, they know that sooner or later, Taiwan will be there's, without a shot being fired....)

and then the Party took over the running of China... and things got better... they did not believe in debt, everything they built was paid for in cash... not one cent was ever borrowed.... this upset the Capitalists so they sent over Nixon to break down the bamboo curtain.... and this is exactly what happened...

NOW.... it took a few more decades for the plans to come to fruition... but they were patient... they still did not believe in debt, yes, there was red tape, but only to make sure there was never going to be any debt...

Then the plan came together... thanks to the Capitalists who still had not figured out that capitalism was one big Ponzi scheme... but the Chinese knew... had done for years... they made plans...

They kept their Communist Government... but allowed Capitalism in.... sort of.... a sort of hybrid Capi-communism....

The Commies were in power, there would NEVER be any debt... the market was opened up... but controlled with an iron fist... it was mostly the Army who made the big bucks, they still do... but now, they are mostly the silent partners...

Their biggest weapon was that they controlled the currency... the West has often argued that China should float the currency so the West can get back some of its money... but they refuse... so TRILLIONS are earned...

China is buying up the world ... paying in cash.... it knows a war would destroy everything, so it buys every up, farms... buildings.... trees, oil... gas.... water....

SO.... WHERE AM I GOING WITH THIS?

It knows that the Moon is the stepping stone to Mars and beyond... it knows it cannot do it without the USA and maybe even Russia.... so it will make a deal with them to help build a Moon base...

China owns the vast bulk of the USA's debt.... do you think any pesky little law will stop them? HELL NO, they will tell the USA to scrap that law IF it wants anymore money... about that, its said the US is addicted to debt.... and it is, as much as they are addicted to oil...

I wouldn't mind betting that soon.... China will offer to buy and run NASA for the USA, and pay all costs... and really, the USA be be glad to be shot of it...

Will China build a base on the Moon.... yes.... if they want it, they will get it... the first step was that rover, and I said then that China will want a Moon base and some of you on this very site scoffed at the idea..... but I said history was on my side...

and now.... proof... they are planning their base.... if they want it... they WILL get it, they have the money, they have the will, they have the need... yes...

China will own the Moon.

Edited May 1, 2014 by kiwi1960

[Klingon Admiral]

Let them have the moon, I take a couple of NEOs.

[NASAFanboy]

Kiwi, no offense, but you really sound like an drunken storyteller at 2AM in the morning.

The United States relies on China as much as China relies on the United States. Over 40% of the entire Chinese economy is owned by American companies and the American Government, and the vast majority of American debt goes to domestic businesses. USA owns China as much as China owns America, you have to realize that. And it's certainly not the first time, the USA did it with post-WW1 Russia too.

China needs to have NASA on its side for such a huge venture.

And America needs to get rid of its blatant hatred of communism.

Back to discussing lunar colonization, please.

[Red Iron Crown]

I would love to see what NASA could do with the kind of budget China seems willing to invest in its space program. It's too bad there's such resistance to collaboration, there must be a lot of wheel reinvention going on.

[Herr Doktor Strangemember]

Kiwi I wasn't saying China can't do it, build a Moon base, sorry if you misunderstood or anyone else. I was pointing out that NASA is blocked from to doing ANYTHING with China. Now could China force the US Government to change it laws, unlikely with the current makeup in the Congress, witness the debt ceiling crisis and government shutdown, and the Tea Party obstruction. On a more related point because of the US government stance China's space agency has instead turned to Russia and Europe for aid in it's space program, and those ties I think trump NASA. NASA I think peaked for now, what with constant 'tweaking' of it's programs, budget, and goals by the government. What NASA needs is another Kennedy 'we are going to the Moon' speech, and the political will to carry out such plan in timeframe longer than an election cycle.

Politics is the lead weight to NASA's dream for the rest of us.

China does have the will, if the guys at top say do it, they do. Sure it might not have all the bells and whistles but it will get done. It might not be cutting/bleeding edge but it will be done.

On a somewhat more on topic point why do most Moon bases seem to be surface bases? Has anyone looked into using existing lava tubes as a place to build, would save on the cost needed for shielding and serve as insulation against temperature extremes.

Regards.

[RuBisCO]

There's real potential for doing stuff with the Lunar polar volatiles in the permanently-shaded craters, but it is more limited than Mars.

I don't know about that, a polar lunar base can be placed in a so called "peak of eternal light" where it could receive solar power for at least 80%, temperature extremes would be reduced, radiation levels would be lower because of the sun being at such a low angle as to be easily blocked by building the habitat in a pit. Water is just a few kilometers away in the craters of eternal darkness, as well as all the hydrates available in all the soil everywhere there. On Mars to get from the equator to known proven reserves of water is going to require traveling thousands of kilometers up to latitudes above 70°, building a base at high latitudes will reduce solar power and increase heating requirements.

[vger]

Considering that the entire financial system is more or less 'virtual,' any nation could back out of it anytime it chooses to, which is practically what its being inferred that China would do. Any other country could do the exact same thing. Frankly, given the U.S. debt, it's hard to say whether or not China would be hurting us or doing us a favor. Would it cause total chaos? Sure. But would it destroy the US? Probably not. We'd practically be unplugged from the Matrix. It would force us to think differently. And at this point in America's history, that's exactly what is needed.

And, is kiwi freaking anyone else out? These posts are reading like a street corner evangelist preaching about some cult's vision about the end of the world, not to mention more than just a hint of nationalism.

I don't know about that, a polar lunar base can be placed in a so called "peak of eternal light" where it could receive solar power for at least 80%, temperature extremes would be reduced, radiation levels would be lower because of the sun being at such a low angle as to be easily blocked by building the habitat in a pit. Water is just a few kilometers away in the craters of eternal darkness, as well as all the hydrates available in all the soil everywhere there. On Mars to get from the equator to known proven reserves of water is going to require traveling thousands of kilometers up to latitudes above 70°, building a base at high latitudes will reduce solar power and increase heating requirements.

Pretty much what I was thinking in response to you, NERVA You'd WANT to have your base in a crater, and just put your solar collectors higher up.

Furthermore, we just need to find out HOW much water the moon has on it. H2O can be converted to air, just like CO2 on Mars. That also gives you hydrogen for your fuel needs, a counterpart to methane from Mars.

Edited May 1, 2014 by vger

[RuBisCO]

Well sure the moon's poles may have lots of water billions of tons of it that could be eaisly mined via nothing more then shoveling chucks of lunar soil into an oven and heating it to above boiling (several hundred degree's more to get out all the hydrates too) that could be done via a solar concentrator, but what about nitrogen and carbon?

[vger]

Well sure the moon's poles may have lots of water billions of tons of it that could be eaisly mined via nothing more then shoveling chucks of lunar soil into an oven and heating it to above boiling (several hundred degree's more to get out all the hydrates too) that could be done via a solar concentrator, but what about nitrogen and carbon?

Heh, we can produce plenty of our own carbon on the way to the moon just by breathing.

As for the Nitrogen, I have no clue. Nobody seems particularly concerned about it though. NASA offered a prize to the first lab that efficiently extract oxygen from synthesized moon rocks. Maybe they're not as concerned about shipping the Nitrogen because it's lighter? We also don't really use Nitrogen for anything. Mostly it just helps keep us from getting too much O2, so there's not much concern about needing to constantly replenish it. In the absence of sufficient plant life, we will need a renewable supply of oxygen. The N and CO2 can just get recycled.

Edited May 1, 2014 by vger

[RuBisCO]

Heh, we can produce plenty of our own carbon on the way to the moon just by breathing.

As for the Nitrogen, I have no clue. Nobody seems particularly concerned about it though. NASA offered a prize to the first lab that efficiently extract oxygen from synthesized moon rocks. Maybe they're not as concerned about shipping the Nitrogen because it's lighter? We also don't really use Nitrogen for anything. Mostly it just helps keep us from getting too much O2, so there's not much concern about needing to constantly replenish it. In the absence of sufficient plant life, we will need a renewable supply of oxygen. The N and CO2 can just get recycled.

I ran the numbers and I think your right, it should be pratical to provide nitrogen and carbon from earth, assuming it is all recycled by artifical biosphere and pumped airlocks. Even under a sea level atmosphere its only going to take a few hundred grams of nitrogen per cubic meter. Of course for a moon colony nitrogen and carbon may become serious concerns, wanting to fill million cubic meter lava caves with habitates an all, but that is a very long ways away if ever.

[SargeRho]

One good source of Nitrogen is ammonia. I think many NEOs contain Ammonia.

[Klingon Admiral]

Once again, if China becomes a real threat, lob a nice (not so) little impactor at them.

[RuBisCO]

I serious doubt we will ever go to war with china, china and the USA depend on each other economically, more so at the end of the day there is MAD. Look MAD WORKS, soviet union and USA did not go to war because neither side wanted to die! Sure there are some military-industrial complex people on both sides setting up for a war, but they are only doing that to make money on over-blow military hardware that will most likely never get used in such a way.

Oh what was this thread about?, oh yeah: china making a base on the moon. topic-back-to.

[DaveofDefeat]

So much politics, the world would be much better without the me vs you attitude.

I'm sure china could build a moon base in a couple decades, might even be useful. Still a lot of problems to tackle though, I wonder how long they will keep men there and how supply delivery's would go.

[vger]

So much politics, the world would be much better without the me vs you attitude.

I'm sure china could build a moon base in a couple decades, might even be useful.

I would hope that if it happens, it would be run somewhat like the ISS, and anyone who is interested, can expand on it if they wish. It would be good for all parties involved, and help keep space a HUMAN venture not defined by borders or governments.

[Everten P.]

China: *looks at huge base* 36 square meters of living space!

NASA: lol you crazy.

[Seret]

Hello all first post and all that I had planned a more 'normal' into but pulled into the discussion.

NASA is forbidden from working with China by act of Congress, as of April 2011 they cannot aid, or plan ANY operation with China.

Here is the exact wording.

-Public Law 112-55, SEC. 539

None of the funds made available by this Act may be used for the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) or the Office of Science and Technology Policy (OSTP) to develop, design, plan, promulgate, implement, or execute a bilateral policy, program, order, or contract of any kind to participate, collaborate, or coordinate bilaterally in any way with China.

That's an appallingly short-sighted, jingoistic and counter-productive piece of legislation. What's the actual status of the legislation? It seems from a quick search online that it's actually passed!? If so you Americans should be petitioning your representatives to get that kind of narrow-minded antagonistic trash repealed.

A strong Chinese space programme is an opportunity, not a threat. The US has plenty of money and expertise, but lacks the things the Chinese have: focus and political backing. Cooperation would benefit both. A potential Chinese moon base should be viewed as a huge opportunity fro the US if it can gain access to it, if only because it would give NASA access to a moon base on the cheap.

Looking at that model there seems to be a large optical telescope and possibly some radio astronomy going on, why would you not want to get in on a piece of that?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Seret