De-orbit Like a Tree Bio-mimicry Challenge!

[KeithStone]

De-orbit Like a Tree Bio-mimicry Challenge!

While enjoying some beautiful weather on a break from working on my next KOTK write-up, something fluttered by and caught my attention. I immediately laughed, wondering if it would be possible to build it in KSP for use with probe landings.

A Maple "helicopter" seed, courtesy of iStock. (You know you've been playing too much KSP when....amrite?)

Several hours later and I've decided that this would indeed pose an excellent challenge! Make like a tree and leaf orbit!

Here are the rules:

Build a probe or capsule that mimics the flight characteristics of a plant. Inspiration includes dandelion seeds, maple seeds, and all kinds of leaves in the fall. It would be nice if you name the plant you are mimicking.

De-orbit said probe/capsule body from 100km and attempt to land it back on Kerbin (if doing a suborbital launch instead your probe must decouple from the launch stage no less than 70kM up. You must be in space when the probe is decoupled and still comply to all other rules).

The lowest speed achieved within the last 500 meters of descent (before touching the ground for the first time) will be used in your score, so you can score even if the probe does not survive (see scoring below, speed after a bounce doesn't count, taken before first touch with the surface only)

Once the deorbit burn is complete, all engines, SAS, and RCS must be staged off of the craft. This means there should be no engines, SAS, or RCS thrusters on the final payload (fuel and monoprop can be used as a counterbalance, but there cannot be any engines/RCS blocks attached to the craft).

Once the deorbit burn is complete, you have until the probe reaches the atmosphere (69km) to make your final adjustments. After the craft reaches 69km the probe must complete it's descent without further interaction, meaning no more touching the controls, no further staging, no use of additional action groups, and SAS must be turned off. This will keep challengers from abusing infiniglide.

Parachutes may not be used.

Landing legs may not be used unless HEAVILY justified. Plants to have landing gear or wheels, but if you end up being creative enough to warrant their use it may be allowed, though I would like to see what your score is without it.

Mods are welcome, but since scoring goes off of wing/flight surface count, then procedural wings is out. Everything else should be fine unless someone finds a challenge-breaking part.

You can hyperedit your craft in to orbit, but it must complete the deorbit burn on its own.

Part clipping is fine, but no other cheats. Any clipped parts must still be visible enough to be counted in scoring.

Separate leaderboards for Stock (with the exception of MechJeb/Engineer), ModCraft, and those who want to try using FAR (not sure if FAR would make this easier or harder).

Scoring:

Craft may only score if they reach a surface speed of under 50m/s during the last 500 meters of descent before reaching the surface of Kerbin (speed based off of the navbal in "surface" display mode – not from other mod parts to keep things fair)

+100 points for each ton of weight rounded to the nearest full ton of the final probe once the deorbit burn is complete and all stages discarded

+25 points per full 5m/s below 50m/s during the last 500 meters of descent (taken from lowest speed during descent, anything under 5m/s gets the full +250 points. Kerbal Engineer or Mechjeb recommended unless you plan on landing at surface level to show your speed while under 500 meters true to surface.)

+250 points for the probe body surviving impact

+500 points if no parts break off of the craft after impact (replaces the +250 score for just the probe body surviving)

+100 points for being lifted to orbit instead of being edited

-10 points per solid wing surface

-30 points for each flight control surface (control surfaces, airbrakes, canards, and wings with built-in flight surfaces)

My Entry:

Mimics a Maple seed. Makes use of modded counterweight drums to bring the center of mass closer to the middle and the stronger struts of AIES. Hyperedited to orbit. Unfortunately it got inverted in descent, and the wing started to pull the vessel instead of having the lift keep it slowed down. I may try to enter this one again later once I tune it up a bit more, but I want to see what everyone else comes up with!

5.265 ton = 500 points

Hyperedited to orbit

Lowest speed 29.9m/s = 100 points

Probe did not survive impact

4 wing surfaces = -40 points

6 control surfaces = -180 points

Total = 380 points!

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Can you top that?

Stock:

1.) DJWizardCop - 8350 pts

2.) sdj64 - 1105 pts

3.)

4.)

5.)

Modcraft:

1.) Keithstone - 380 pts

2.)

3.)

4.)

5.)

FAR:

1.) Master Tao - 750 pts

2.)

3.)

4.)

5.)

Honorable Mentions:

1.) MarvinKitFox (probe actually gained height and never landed!)

2.) Rakaydos (yet to test the drop from orbit-but could cleverly hitch a ride anywhere!)

3.) Kasuha - 4550 pts for the tumbleweed but was not below 50 m/s while under 500 meters to surface.

Edited May 8, 2014 by KeithStone

[sdj64]

My thought process:

* What a creative challenge! This will be fun and not too difficult *

* I'll just whip something up real quick *

* I hate you stock KSP aerodymamics model *

* Can't be bothered to go get FAR and learn how it works *

* Frustration *

I'll try again tomorrow.

[KeithStone]

The first comment put a smile on my face, I've been thinking for a long time to try to put something new(ish) up on the challenge boards.

Your second comment made me laugh, because I spent several hours straight before I gave in and posted the challenge before landing a probe body intact. I'm sure someone out there can complete this challenge in a jiff, but that person isnt me, and I have a feeling this one may actually be quite a bit tougher than it looks. Making something work "real quick" got a giggle out of me, but I mean no offense

Trying to build a better version in my other save made me wonder how I got one to work as well as I did after my tenth COMPLETE rebuild (minus hundreds of little tweaks) the first time. So far the only trick I've found is to try to purposefully induce flat spin without input in the last 5 thousand meters or so, and use that flat spit to create lift. In my above entry, one of the unfortunate downfalls was that my lift was toward my prograde instead of retro, so I didnt slow down as much as I could have. Shame that pancake-spins happen all the time when you dont want them to, but trying to make one happen without input is frustrating beyond end!

Keep trying! I got *some* success using a dandelion model, but the amount of spin that was produced ripped most craft to pieces before they could reach the surface.

[TJPrime]

Are landing legs allowed?

[KeithStone]

Are landing legs allowed?

I actually meant to include that in the original post. No, unless you can justify a plant with a super strong landing leg it ends up on (I might allow a SINGLE landing leg to act as the steam of a leaf, for example) Original post updated.

[Kasuha]

If anyone's interested, here's a source of inspiration. I don't see too much variety there, though.

and Kerbal aerodynamics make it all quite complicated - my dandelion seed insisted on falling with its parachute first. I would guess Kerbal plant seeds use different shapes than Earth ones...

[HafCoJoe]

I think I'll try this.

[sdj64]

Alright, I got one that survives landing. I was originally going for a dandelion seed style but the final product ended up most like a whirling nut. Wings on top to make it spiral down, and a hard shell on the bottom made of structural parts.

5.876 ton = 600 points

was lifted to orbit on a rocket +100

no parts broken +500

12 fixed wing surfaces -120

barely squeaks by under 50 m/s +0

All stock except for Kerbal Engineer.

Total: 1080 points?

2 questions -

Does my speed at 500m above the surface count for the speed points, or my speed just before landing? I have two pictures of it so I will let you decide.

Do I also get the +250 for probe surviving in addition to the +500? or does it just replace it?

Javascript is disabled. View full album

[MarvinKitFox]

My first entry: Dandelion seed!

The launch. Note many many MANY gyro's to keep it from spinning like a top on ascent.

Released at 70km. (yes, not really *orbit*, but space anyways

initial descent is very ordinary, until at 300m, it suddenly stabilizes.

and............ yawn!

Do Dandelions ***EVER*** reach the ground?

I cannot warp, as even x2 turns it into a demon-driven tumbleweed.

so... wait. and wait. go make supper. eat supper. watch episode of mythbusters.

Alt down to 2761m.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!

Entry disqualified due to not ever reaching the ground.

At about 1800m, the vertical went to 0.1!

I'm assuming those long wings generate some sort of infiniglide, or divide by zero, or something!

[Rakaydos]

Just waiting to catch someone's leg up to orbit... and down again...

[KeithStone]

Alright, I got one that survives landing. I was originally going for a dandelion seed style but the final product ended up most like a whirling nut. Wings on top to make it spiral down, and a hard shell on the bottom made of structural parts.

5.876 ton = 600 points

was lifted to orbit on a rocket +100

no parts broken +500

12 fixed wing surfaces -120

barely squeaks by under 50 m/s +0

All stock except for Kerbal Engineer.

Total: 1080 points?

2 questions -

Does my speed at 500m above the surface count for the speed points, or my speed just before landing? I have two pictures of it so I will let you decide.

Do I also get the +250 for probe surviving in addition to the +500? or does it just replace it?

The +500 for all parts surviving replaces the +250, I'll update the main post. The speed score is for the lowest speed during the last 500 meters, which I see as 41.5, which would allot you +25 points for being 45m/s or under, since you didnt quite make under 40. That puts your total score at 1105 for stock! Grats! Leaderboard updated.

My first entry: Dandelion seed!

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mch67/mch671007/mch67100700061/7445548-parachute-seed-on-blue-background.jpg

The launch. Note many many MANY gyro's to keep it from spinning like a top on ascent.

Released at 70km. (yes, not really *orbit*, but space anyways

initial descent is very ordinary, until at 300m, it suddenly stabilizes.

and............ yawn!

Do Dandelions ***EVER*** reach the ground?

I cannot warp, as even x2 turns it into a demon-driven tumbleweed.

so... wait. and wait. go make supper. eat supper. watch episode of mythbusters.

Alt down to 2761m.

THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!

Entry disqualified due to not ever reaching the ground.

At about 1800m, the vertical went to 0.1!

I'm assuming those long wings generate some sort of infiniglide, or divide by zero, or something!

I'm speechless. I didnt think that was really possible! Honorable mention for you! Maybe if you add a little more weight it can reach the surface? I also noticed that your SAS was still on, could this be adding any torque? *EDIT* Nevermind, your electric charge is zero.

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608045555388911379&pid=1.7

http://i.imgur.com/u7XIZKa.png

Just waiting to catch someone's leg up to orbit... and down again...

You think it will survive the fall? I honestly like the idea quite a bit, you should attach it to the side of a rocket like it's really hitching a ride!

Edited May 5, 2014 by KeithStone

[Kasuha]

Okay I'm not 100% sure if I followed all the rules. But I tried. Ladies and gentlemen: Tumbleweed!

Seed weight: 41.51 t -> 4200 pts

Speed below 500 m: 125 m/s -> 0 pts

Probe body (capsule) survived impact: 250 pts

Parts broke off: yes -> 0 pts

Lifted to orbit: yes -> 100 pts

Solid wing surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

Control surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

total: 4550 pts.

Edit: sorry, I had to redo the landing because I noticed I forgot SAS on during landing (not like it changed anything on the result but let's stick to rules). The redo has the same results, just without SAS.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kasuha

[KeithStone]

Okay I'm not 100% sure if I followed all the rules. But I tried. Ladies and gentlemen: Tumbleweed!

Seed weight: 41.51 t -> 4200 pts

Speed below 500 m: 125 m/s -> 0 pts

Probe body (capsule) survived impact: 250 pts

Parts broke off: yes -> 0 pts

Lifted to orbit: yes -> 100 pts

Solid wing surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

Control surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

total: 4550 pts.

Looks like you followed all the rules to me! Grand 'ole lithobraking for the win. That's 4550 points for the tumbleweed (stock I assume?), I just hope this doesn't discourage others from trying other unique forms of completing the challenge!

*Edit* Did u remove the album?

Edited May 5, 2014 by KeithStone

[Kasuha]

*Edit* Did u remove the album?

I noticed I forgot SAS on so I re-recorded the descent without it.

And yes, it is stock.

[KeithStone]

Ah, I see. I didn't catch that at first (was still blown away by the fact that you made a working tumbleweed!) Thanks for re-doing your deorbit to fit the rules!

[DJWizardCop]

First entry to get the full speed bonus

Buuuut as demonstrated by Kasuha, clearly not the best way to get points.

Anywho, mimicking whirling nuts, the whirlinut:

http://imgur.com/a/IJZqP

2.61 t rounded to 3 for +300

3.8 m/s for +250

Completely intact + 500

Lifted to orbit + 100

36 solid wings - 360

Total: 790... excuse me while I go make a half-decent entry.

Edit: 2.61 rounded is 3, so it counts for 3 t.

Edited May 5, 2014 by DJWizardCop

[Kasuha]

Completely intact ... on water? Wow.

Good job, congratulations!

[DJWizardCop]

Completely intact ... on water? Wow.

Good job, congratulations!

Thanks.

I must say though, I'm completely astounded that you got under 50 m/s for the last 500 meters.

[KeithStone]

First entry to get the full speed bonus

Buuuut as demonstrated by Kasuha, clearly not the best way to get points.

Anywho, mimicking whirling nuts, the whirlinut:

http://imgur.com/a/IJZqP

2.61 t rounded to 3 for +300

3.8 m/s for +250

Completely intact + 500

Lifted to orbit + 100

36 solid wings - 360

Total: 690... excuse me while I go make a half-decent entry.

Edit: 2.61 rounded is 3, so it counts for 3 t.

With your 3 ton, your total is 790, which still beats mine by double! Leaderboard updated for stock. Kudos on the water landing!

I'm not sure what the upper limit is on lithobraking as far as weight ratios are concerned, so I'm still on the fence if there need's to maybe be a point penalty for every 5 m/s OVER 50? That would change a score post entry though, and I dont necessarily want to do that. Even running the calculations, using Kasuha's score as a baseline, at 125m/s thats 75 m/s over the 50 mark, making 15 separate 5m/s chunks, meaning that the point penalty would have to be something like -200 points for each 5m/s over to bring Kashua's score in line with the others (with minus 3000 points that would still be first place with 1550 stock), and that seems excessively harsh on the penalty.

Anyone have thoughts on this? I was also thinking weight of the surviving pieces of craft, but that makes it even harder for non-surviving craft to score.

Ideas are welcome as the challenge develops.

[DJWizardCop]

The thing to avoid are rules that permit hyperediting a 1000t + craft into orbit and then deorbiting it, with a probe core enclosed in a structural shell so that it survives.

That would allow entries far outscoring Kasuha's and not really in the spirit of the challenge.

I suggest either using the final weight of the craft in the calculation (which allows lithobreaking) or using current rules and disqualifying entries that go over 50 m/s at 500 m.

[HafCoJoe]

Is infi-gliding allowed?

*Entry soon to be here

Edited May 5, 2014 by Avera9eJoe

[KeithStone]

Is infi-gliding allowed?

*Entry soon to be here

The concept is there, since the point is to generate lift without input. Keyword is WITHOUT input or SAS, as stated in the rules. With wings and control surfaces subtracting from your score, infiniglide shouldnt be something to worry about, though there has been one honorable mention of a craft that was able to sustain lift without ever landing. That may count as infinigliding, but you dont score until you land.

[KeithStone]

Okay I'm not 100% sure if I followed all the rules. But I tried. Ladies and gentlemen: Tumbleweed!

Seed weight: 41.51 t -> 4200 pts

Speed below 500 m: 125 m/s -> 0 pts

Probe body (capsule) survived impact: 250 pts

Parts broke off: yes -> 0 pts

Lifted to orbit: yes -> 100 pts

Solid wing surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

Control surfaces: 0 -> 0 pts

total: 4550 pts.

Edit: sorry, I had to redo the landing because I noticed I forgot SAS on during landing (not like it changed anything on the result but let's stick to rules). The redo has the same results, just without SAS.

Actually, after re-reading over the rules again to try to solve this one, craft only score if they are below 50m/s during the last 500 meters of descent. Moving this score to honorable mention. I have put this rule in bold as even I missed it after several re-readings.

Edited May 5, 2014 by KeithStone

[DJWizardCop]

Went dandelion-style this time.

http://imgur.com/a/iz6Ny

Final vessel mass: 22.2t, for + 2200

Lowest speed 6.8 m/s for + 225

Completely intact + 500

Lifted to orbit + 100

48 solid wings - 480

Total: 2545

This design can easily be scaled up, so 3k points is feasible.

[Kasuha]

Actually, after re-reading over the rules again to try to solve this one, craft only score if they are below 50m/s during the last 500 meters of descent. Moving this score to honorable mention. I have put this rule in bold as even I missed it after several re-readings.

Gotta love rules changing on the fly. I thought the matter of the challenge was to make crafts that resemble wind-transported Earth plant seedlings. Tumbleweed is among them, even though it is not exactly aerodynamic or flying. And if there were winds on Kerbin I am pretty sure my creation would behave like one even later when on ground.

And if you make a new rule, you could at least put it in the rules part. The way it is now, my entry should be still valid as there is no rule that it cannot exceed 50 m/s, it only says such entries don't score - so 0 points.

To be honest, my opinion is that what really needed update was rather the scoring per ton and negative points per wing surface. Because these two go exactly against the spirit of the challenge. Flying seeds are usually light and use aerodynamic properties, so being light and using aerodynamic surfaces should be better, not worse in terms of the challenge.