BTSM style science collection in 0.24

[kalineh]

After restarting career mode with the Better Than Starting Manned[1] mod, I've found that the science collection has been much more enjoyable than vanilla.

The changes to the research modules are fairly simple, but improve the science collection enormously - each type of science is sort of a mission in itself. Each module is given more distinct use-cases, which means the rocket design for a certain type of science collection changes depending on what you want to collect.

For example, gravity scan is per-biome and at high and low space only. Seismic detection is for surface landings only. Temperature and atmosphere are high, low and surface, but biomes are not used. Mystery Goo and Surface Samples /must/ be returned to kerbin for analysis, which makes them higher difficulty and higher reward 'missions' effectively.

It opens up more options; can make things like a gravity-scan probe that loops around (maybe on your ScanSAT probe), or a very light lander probe that just gets a seismic reading.

The splitting of probes vs manned vs collection missions works well, and removing the transmit penalty on research differentiates probes vs collections. The transmit penalty in vanilla makes it saddening to do anything but bring all the science back every time on a generic manned ship with all the modules attached - it's always the same style mission.

Removing some of the sillier science acquisitions - EVA reports at the launchpad, etc, reduce spamminess and make for better science rewards for the /actual/ science collection missions.

I think this sort of direction would improve the gameplay mechanics of career mode for 0.24, without being such a significant development cost. There are lots of things in BTSM that I feel improve gameplay, but these changes in particular I think slot nicely into vanilla, bringing improvements without being disruptive.

Of course, this is all under the assumption that science collection in 0.24 is the same as 0.23.5, but who knows what wonderful changes Squad has already made.

tl;dr

- differentiate science module usage

- reduce transmission science loss

- require samples to be returned to kerbin

- reduce excessive biome spamming

[CaptRobau]

Sounds good. I'll have to try it out.

[phoenix_ca]

I just wish BTSM wasn't such a complete overhaul. I do like the science collection. Though it should be possible (with just the right MM config) to adjust the xmitDataScalar for various experiments to mimic BTSM's transmit-everything or need-to-return-for-anything style of collection. That's a definite plus. Less incessant clicking that feels like a memorpeger.

Edited May 17, 2014 by phoenix_ca

[meve12]

I'd like to keep movable samples, but other than that this is good.

[LaytheAerospace]

I like it. I'd really like to see the big, heavy science parts come into play, though. I just love the idea of an orbital science station servicing all of Jool's moons.

Maybe we need to heavily restrict the rate data can be sent back (in real life, moving data off a planet with no infrastructure is really hard). Then you could use your orbital lab to process your easy, low value missions on the spot, but anything which produces too much data or is a sample must be returned to the planet.

Transmitting the entire science payload back to Kerbin via radio just feels way too easy.

[chaos_forge]

That's . . . actually a really good idea. I can see how these changes would make the science system feel a lot less game-y and more like real science. I have one question and an extra suggestion:

Question: How would science labs fit into this? I think they should allow you to transmit collections at 75-100% the science points of returning.

Now comes the extra suggestion: I would also like to see, in addition to this, more science parts that reference *actual* science instead of just being black boxes (for example, it'd be pretty cool to have magnetometrrs and spectroscopes). Generally, I think the original science parts (thermometer, etc) are the best because you have a reason to clikck them out of curiosity, not just to get science points. In that vein, I'd like the atmo sensor to have an extra display showing atmospheric composition without generating a science report.

I'd love to know what you think about this, OP

[meve12]

Now comes the extra suggestion: I would also like to see, in addition to this, more science parts that reference *actual* science instead of just being black boxes (for example, it'd be pretty cool to have magnetometrrs and spectroscopes). Generally, I think the original science parts (thermometer, etc) are the best because you have a reason to clikck them out of curiosity, not just to get science points. In that vein, I'd like the atmo sensor to have an extra display showing atmospheric composition without generating a science report.

I'd love to know what you think about this, OP

On that note: Could there be environmental hazards that certain instruments could forewarn about before it happens? Thermometers warning of heat problems close to the sun, for example. This would count as a science report for low orbit of the sun, but would also have text warning about heat problems.

This could give a reason to view instruments to scout out hidden dangers, not just for science points.

[geb]

The science system in BTSM has a few flaws (waiting five game years for the long term habitation study is really not fun) but I love some parts of it.

The best bit is that you never have to repeat a mission. If you've taken a reading, and done it properly, then you have 100% of the science from it. There's also no foolishness like having to return your thermometer home to get bonus science. Science results that are pure data can be transmitted at 100% as pure data.

[breakthrough]

I personally feel the conspicuous green residue on the launchpad adds to the charm, and picking up bits of grasslands and shores science takes some of the sting out of aborting a design that seemed good after spending 90 minutes in the VAB.

But if this were to be implemented, several early techs would need moved into tier 0 so that SRB explosion staging wasn't a necessary technique to unlock decouplers.

[Holyvision]

But if this were to be implemented, several early techs would need moved into tier 0 so that SRB explosion staging wasn't a necessary technique to unlock decouplers.

In my personal games, I found that the skilled use of control-surfaces (wiglets) to keep the craft at a zero-degree to 90-degree-gravity-assisted climb would allow a ship to reach an altitude of just over 70km with just enough electrical charge to get a single gravity-detector-scan transmitted for a single bio type. Rinse and repeat about three or four times (for three or four bio areas) and I had more than enough science to unlock more science toys, decouplers, and liquid fueled rockets.

One of my favorite things about BTSM is that it teaches you (without using currency/item expense/etc) to be as frugal as possible, and really make sure you only take what you need; with little to no excess. Taking that one or two extra batteries off the craft may get you that extra ~1.5km needed to get past 70km for scans.

Never had to use SRB overheat-decoupling once, so far!

[Kegereneku]

Well, I have yet to try this BTSM mods but I do think for sure that what actually pass for a Science-system (pre-0.24) better had to be a mere place-holder unlike the real-things planned.

My problem with the actual system are theses :

- It's very grindy.

- It's also very repetitive, it all amount to putting as much science-module as possible on one ship and get it back.

- It doesn't encourage anything but manned-mission (since you need to retrieve data, you might as well take samples)

- The transmission system is absurd

- And to top that the tech-tree is a mess where the part you'd need early can't be unlocked until you don't need them anymore.

I don't know if "Better Than Starting Manned" is better, but it certainly sound better and improved over time. I really hope the Budget-system from 0.24 will really be the missing update needed to give it all its meaning.

[Sky_walker]

- It's also very repetitive, it all amount to putting as much science-module as possible on one ship and get it back.

- It doesn't encourage anything but manned-mission (since you need to retrieve data, you might as well take samples)

These two things bother me most of all. Current system basically discourages you from doing anything that's remotely close to real life space exploration.