[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

Beale · February 20, 2015

I am getting to IVAs for the Soyuz

Yup, sadly they're still a W.I.P. IVAs are coming along slowly, the Gemini one now is more or less done.

Honestly I don't even know if using three resources works, it'd be interesting to see! You may want to shoot Streetwind a PM for some help, he's the guy who statted up the Near Future engines so he knows his stuff.

I am out of my depth, the DV readings are very funky in the VAB! haha

I'll be sure to give the guy a message! Thanks.

MrSnappyTurtles · February 20, 2015

Yup, sadly they're still a W.I.P. IVAs are coming along slowly, the Gemini one now is more or less done.

Oh i thought i remember soyuz having one before

Beale · February 20, 2015

Oh i thought i remember soyuz having one before

It did have one previously, but the new Soyuz exterior has different window positions now, so it would not look so great to keep it around.

MrSnappyTurtles · February 20, 2015

It did have one previously, but the new Soyuz exterior has different window positions now, so it would not look so great to keep it around.

Oh ok Thank you

passinglurker · February 20, 2015

The limiting factor is how much heat you can dump into the fuel, a high-thrust resistojet would need truly enormous solar panels to match an equivalent electric-static rocket engine.

tag "In terms of ISP" onto the end and you'd be good. If you tried to pump enough heat into your fuel to achieve a level of isp that rivals an electrostatic system your engine would melt that simple the same is true with NTR's the advantage of thermal rockets is they have better thrust than electrostatics and better isp than chemical rockets.

there are ways around this of course arcjets replace the melting prone heating element with a hot raw electric arc raising the max temperature some what. electrodeless designs like vasimr can actually rival electrostatic isp by magnetically bottling the hot fuel away from anything structural, and on the nuclear front you have open cycle gas and liquid core designs.

but thrust is a different story so my point is you can't really say that resistojet technology is limited to fractions of a newton of thrust.

Edited February 20, 2015 by passinglurker

Beale · February 21, 2015

my point is you can't really say that resistojet technology is limited to fractions of a newton of thrust.

18kN feels okay-ish (As in, not overpowered).

Of course, providing the electricity is trivial around Moho. Out there it's basically a chemical rocket in augmented mode.

In pure LF mode it still could take off under Moho gravity, but wasn't as swift.

You may notice a little "cool feature" (Which is probably wildly inaccurate) that the exhaust glows orange a little in augmented mode, plain white in pure LF mode.

@hoojiwana: "tri-propellant" works great after some tweaking! The Augmented mode needed the LF/OX ratios changed from 0.9/1.1 to 0.09/0.11 and everything works correctly.

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

Wouldn't porkjets LANTERN serve as a good guide for determining the TWR? I'd probably give the LARJ a little more TWR(because some of the needed mass is detached as solar panels and batteries and because its get less hot and isn't radioactive so less shielding is needed) and a little less ISP(because again it doesn't get as hot) compared to porkjets LANTERN

Beale · February 21, 2015

Wouldn't porkjets LANTERN serve as a good guide for determining the TWR? I'd probably give the LARJ a little more TWR(because some of the needed mass is detached as solar panels and batteries and because its get less hot and isn't radioactive so less shielding is needed) and a little less ISP(because again it doesn't get as hot) compared to porkjets LANTERN

Yup, I've been playing around with the numbers, but that is how it has basically ended up.

The fuel type means a LARJ powered craft or probe is going to be heavier than your typical electric engine vehicle, so hopefully the extra thrust it has is justified.

It has got a slightly higher ISP in pure LF mode, but, compared to the stock NTR it's still lower.

Here's the .CFG, I very very much welcome any critique.

PART
{

name = Castor_Engine_A
module = Part
author = Tantares

mesh = model.mu
scale = 1
rescaleFactor = 1.0

node_stack_bottom = 0.0, -0.576763, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1
node_stack_top    = 0.0,  0.576763, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 1

TechRequired = ionPropulsion
entryCost = 18000
cost = 6500

category     = Propulsion
subcategory  = 0
title        = Castor LARJ Thruster
manufacturer = Ionic Symphonic Protonic Electronics
description  = With the LARJ (Liquid Oxygen Augmented ResistoJet), thrust is created through the thermal expansion of a propellant. In this case, the heat is supplied by passing large amounts of electricity through a resistor. The addition of Oxidizer into the fuel flow allows for a much greater thrust, at the cost of efficiency.

attachRules = 1,0,1,1,0

EFFECTS
{
  effectNormal
  {	
   MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE
   {
      name = resistoJetFX
      modelName = Tantares/FX/FX_ResistoJet
      transformName = thrustTransform
      emission = 0.0 0.0
      emission = 0.05 0.0
      emission = 0.075 0.25
      emission = 1.0 1.25
      speed = 0.0 0.5
      speed = 1.0 1.2
   }
   AUDIO
   {
	channel = Ship
	clip = sound_jet_deep
	volume = 0.0 0.0
	volume = 1.0 1.0
	pitch = 0.0 0.2
	pitch = 1.0 1.0
	loop = true
    }
  }
  effectAugmented
  {	
   MODEL_MULTI_PARTICLE
   {
      name = resistoJetAugmentedFX
      modelName = Tantares/FX/FX_ResistoJetAugmented
      transformName = thrustTransform
      emission = 0.0 0.0
      emission = 0.05 0.0
      emission = 0.075 0.25
      emission = 1.0 1.25
      speed = 0.0 0.5
      speed = 1.0 1.2
   }
   AUDIO
   {
	channel = Ship
	clip = sound_jet_low
	volume = 0.0 0.0
	volume = 1.0 1.0
	pitch = 0.0 0.2
	pitch = 1.0 1.0
	loop = true
    }
  }
   engage
    {
     AUDIO
      {
       channel = Ship
       clip = sound_vent_medium
       volume = 1.0
       pitch = 1.0
       loop = false
      }
    }
   disengage
    {
     AUDIO
      {
       channel = Ship
       clip = sound_vent_medium
       volume = 1.0
       pitch = 1.0
       loop = false
      }
    }
   flameout
    {
     AUDIO
      {
       channel = Ship
       clip = sound_vent_large
       volume = 1.0
       pitch = 1.0
       loop = false
      }
     }
}

mass = 0.3

dragModelType  = default
maximum_drag   = 0.20
minimum_drag   = 0.15
angularDrag    = 2
crashTolerance = 10
maxTemp        = 3400

stagingIcon = LIQUID_ENGINE

MODULE
{
	name = MultiModeEngine
	primaryEngineID = NormalMode
	secondaryEngineID = AugmentedMode
}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEnginesFX
	engineID = NormalMode
	runningEffectName = effectNormal

	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
	exhaustDamage = True
	ignitionThreshold = 0.1
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = 9
	heatProduction = 200
	fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.0
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
       		ratio = 3.8
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = LiquidFuel
       	        ratio = 0.05
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 795
  	 key = 1 225
 	}

}

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleEnginesFX
	engineID = AugmentedMode
	runningEffectName = effectAugmented

	thrustVectorTransformName = thrustTransform
	exhaustDamage = True
	ignitionThreshold = 0.1
	minThrust = 0
	maxThrust = 18
	heatProduction = 200
	fxOffset = 0, 0, 0.0
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = ElectricCharge
       		ratio = 3.8
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = LiquidFuel
       	        ratio = 0.09
	}
	PROPELLANT
	{
		name = Oxidizer
       	        ratio = 0.11
		DrawGauge = True
	}
	atmosphereCurve
 	{
   	 key = 0 615
  	 key = 1 195
 	}

}

MODULE
{
       name = ModuleJettison
       jettisonName = Castor_Engine_A_Fairing
       bottomNodeName = bottom
       isFairing = True
       jettisonedObjectMass = 0.1
       jettisonForce = 5
       jettisonDirection = 0 0 1

}

}

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

well if you wanted to balance this against porkjet's lantern its got both better twr(not counting panel and battery mass) and isp(the lantern is balanced to be worse than the lv-n in pure fuel mode as a penalty for being versatile). so just against stock it doesn't seem to be stepping on toes but against one of the engines that inspired it its kinda the superior choice (though on the flip side the penalty of needing an external power source could be considered compensation but this is just an opinion with no math to back it up)

also I've heard that blue(oxygen augmented mode) and purple(pure hydrogen mode) are the scientifically accurate colors for this but I could be wrong

The reason the RLA thermoelectrics are in ion propulsion is to make sure you get both the needed electricity and monoprop tanks first, but since this runs off LFO you may be able to get away with placing this more primitive type of engine elsewhere or earlier in the tree if you so choose.

Beale · February 21, 2015

well if you wanted to balance this against porkjet's lantern its got both better twr(not counting panel and battery mass) and isp(the lantern is balanced to be worse than the lv-n in pure fuel mode as a penalty for being versatile). so just against stock it doesn't seem to be stepping on toes but against one of the engines that inspired it its kinda the superior choice (though on the flip side the penalty of needing an external power source could be considered compensation but this is just an opinion with no math to back it up)
also I've heard that blue(oxygen augmented mode) and purple(pure hydrogen mode) are the scientifically accurate colors for this but I could be wrong
The reason the RLA thermoelectrics are in ion propulsion is to make sure you get both the needed electricity and monoprop tanks first, but since this runs off LFO you may be able to get away with placing this more primitive type of engine elsewhere or earlier in the tree if you so choose.

Blue/Purple, I like that!

As for tech tree: I do struggle a little to think where to place it, but that I will play with.

Back on N-1

Block G engine.

Very simple design, but actually I am quite fond of it, for sure.

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

the block G looks spiffy, but if its gonna be an open skeletal thrust plate shouldn't there be some colliderless fuel pipes or some thing extending into the bottom of the tank? or is the fuel fed by superior soviet super science!?

dimovski · February 21, 2015

I... I think it does need some more detail... for now it looks somewhat... jury-rigged?

Beale · February 21, 2015

the block G looks spiffy, but if its gonna be an open skeletal thrust plate shouldn't there be some colliderless fuel pipes or some thing extending into the bottom of the tank? or is the fuel fed by superior soviet super science!?

I... I think it does need some more detail... for now it looks somewhat... jury-rigged?

Hehe, yes this is becoming more apparent, the more I look at it...

Quite easily I could add a few pipes like:

But the pipework is really not my specialty, if an expert could suggest what more simple additions would be good, many appreciated.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

Hehe, yes this is becoming more apparent, the more I look at it...
Quite easily I could add a few pipes like:
http://puu.sh/g6x0T/09aa2996c4.jpg
But the pipework is really not my specialty, if an expert could suggest what more simple additions would be good, many appreciated.

I'm no expert but wouldn't the simplest solution just be to have the fuel pipes come right out of the back? as for adding detail those arms look like they will bend and fold when thrust is applied perhaps if you beefed them up and added more support structure?

Beale · February 21, 2015

I'm no expert but wouldn't the simplest solution just be to have the fuel pipes come right out of the back? as for adding detail those arms look like they will bend and fold when thrust is applied perhaps if you beefed them up and added more support structure?

Like this?

As for more detail, not many pictures I can find of the NK-19 (?)

Only the NK-33

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

not exactly that looks like you'd kill the gimbal if it has one. what I mean is make the support arm less flat looking and don't let the engine push against them at a perpendicular 90degree angle instead make it look a little more braced against the connector ring

Beale · February 21, 2015

not exactly that looks like you'd kill the gimbal if it has one. what I mean is make the support arm less flat looking and don't let the engine push against them at a perpendicular 90degree angle instead make it look a little more braced against the connector ring

I'm not quite getting you, sadly

But, the engine is not gimballed, so there's no restriction there.

SnowWhite · February 21, 2015

ÃÂÃÅ¡-19 / 11Ãâ€53 9Ãâ€ÃÅ“ÃÂ

Beale · February 21, 2015

http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/798/QDZll.jpg
http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/798/WeAXX.jpg
ÃÂÃÅ¡-19 / 11Ãâ€53 9Ãâ€ÃÅ“ÃÂ

It looks a lot different from what I imagined!

Blah.

I will need to make a few changes.

Thanks for the images!

Edit:

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

dimovski · February 21, 2015

How about sticking some RCS onto it? From little support structures. And make it a tad bigger too. (Same height, but wider... Or is that against the mighty deLaval nozzle? hmm)

Beale · February 21, 2015

How about sticking some RCS onto it? From little support structures. And make it a tad bigger too. (Same height, but wider... Or is that against the mighty deLaval nozzle? hmm)

Could do the RCS, that's actually a pretty nice idea.

I'm just making the config for it, so will test in game in a moment.

The width: It's produced from Block G orthographic, so the current width is the real deal!

Even if it looks wrong.

Some things:

Comparison with a few other 2.5m engines.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

passinglurker · February 21, 2015

those last two shots show the need for piping even if its just coming straight from the back.

Beale · February 21, 2015

those last two shots show the need for piping even if its just coming straight from the back.

I'm not so sure, I don't like the idea of some collider-less pipes kind of sticking out of the engine, I maybe can run pipes along the side of the holding arms. They will connect into the "ring".

Or, I can go back to the drawing board and re-design a non-naked engine, much more like the current Proton designs.

A few more tweaks: The N-1 parts now have emissives, and looks much better during ascent. Also, larger FX for the other stages.

The Castor has a purple/blue FX, looks really pretty.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

Arvolder · February 21, 2015

do you want to work on fairing like Kw rocketry for all of your crafts or just use procedural fairings ?

Beale · February 21, 2015

Tantares LV-6

Barring any small cosmetic changes coming to the Block G engine, it's release time!

Despite the excellent beta feedback, there of course may still be bugs, so let me know!

Enjoy!

New Soyuz Paint Scheme

Grid fins will come around shortly.

do you want to work on fairing like Kw rocketry for all of your crafts or just use procedural fairings ?

For now: Procedural.

After stock fairings: Maybe some fairings need making.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Beale

[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

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