Purpose for long-term things

[TJPrime]

Space stations, probes, these are currently only there because you can put it there (and refuelling). Can we generate more science with space stations? Some new parts, maybe?

[Pulstar]

If food supplies and kerbal hunger (for snacks!) were ever implemented then having orbital or surface greenhouse bases could be useful for resupplying ships.

Another idea would be to have relay satellites/stations for communications to increase science yield from data transmissions. Better send one dedicated comms relay to orbit Jool than have a large antenna and panels on every manned craft or probe you send there.

One idea I had way back before the science lab module was added was to have stations run long term experiments that may need resupplying. You put the station in orbit, hit start and just go do other stuff while the experiment slowly completes itself over the course of months. This could be for instance long term effects on kerbal health. Or surface or orbital based astronomical observatories or experiments.

Perhaps if skills for kerbals ever get introduced (harvester mentioned them once a long time ago, but it isn't clear when or if they ever get implemented) you could send kerbals to a base to train/improve skills.

[allmhuran]

I would really like to see more uses for transmissions (ie, more than just sending science data to kerbin) and for line of sight to be added as a requirement. Basically, some of the fundamental components of remote tech.

I've seen Squad mention that they think line of sight might be "too complicated". I don't really believe that, it's not hard to understand what you would need to do. But it would add a nice little "geometry puzzle" to the game: how to optimize your satellite/ground base positions for optimum comms with fewest launches. And it would be a puzzle that's actually *part of the game* instead of being a tacked-on minigame or pointless time sink.

This would give bases and satellites a reason to exist... and a good one that you will actually be using as you play.

It would also teach people about geosynchronous orbits and how actual, real life satellites are positioned, and why, which would be great if you want to think of KSP as an educational tool as well.

I really think it belongs in the stock game.

[Guest]

I really think it belongs in the stock game.

I have to disagree with you here, mainly because I object to launching any craft that are there purely to let other craft do their thing. It's just clutter and clutter causes performance hits in this game, and sets up prerequisites on game play time (I have to launch X satellites before I can do this mission, maybe I'll bother next Tuesday). I would be fine with a minimal amount of useless craft; antenna range is a much better limiter IMO, but line-of-sight can be a pain.

I do, however, agree with the OP in that we could use some optional reasons for long-term bases and such. Would be nice if a space station could be more than just a fuel depot or art installation, but I shouldn't have to have one.

[Kasuha]

I would really like to see more uses for transmissions (ie, more than just sending science data to kerbin) and for line of sight to be added as a requirement. Basically, some of the fundamental components of remote tech.

...

I really think it belongs in the stock game.

Looking at how things are done in real world, I don't really see any complex space communication networks. There's one retranslation station near Mars and that's it. Geostationary satellites are used to allow ground-to-ground communication on Earth and to communicate with probes, powerful ground- or sea-based stations are used. And in case line of sight is lost, the probe is either hibernated or keeps collecting data into memory and transmits them when line of sight is restored.

Seeing how cluttered the map view gets after such communication framework is built, I don't consider it a good idea to force it on players.

I believe space stations will have their use once money are introduced. It will be cheaper to have a ship ready in orbit and to only send it fuel or payload time to time than to send whole new ship up every time.

[Tery215]

Long term is boring.

Say there was a hypothetical long-term resource requiring module. You need to give it supplies, so logically, you put it in the closest deep space available. It's pretty tedious for a reward as trivial as science.

[allmhuran]

Ships on rails warp don't cause performance issues.

I think we can expect map view to get a few more updates before all is said and done, so I'd be careful not to dismiss possible gameplay features based on to the current limitations or cluttered nature of map view.

[xvdBanksbvx]

I feel this games needs some form of ai for the kerbals, so they can act independently in and out of your focus. That is what would give this game some good long term fun, because right now nothing happens with out your direct involvement and that is not what good management games do, you situations out of your control to react to and overcome.

[Kasuha]

Ships on rails warp don't cause performance issues.

Of course they do.

[Moss]

I would love if there was a manned space station system that generated science over time, but it needed resupply to stop people abusing time warp. I have a gut feeling that science will become renewable in 0.24 with the new funds and rep.

[Pulstar]

I think HarvesteR or somebody else from the team even mentioned that in a pinch you'll be able to trade science, funds and reputation for one another, basically as a last emergency measure to avoid losing if things go very wrong in career mode. Though losing will still be possible, just not as easy as "run out of money, no contracts you can do, GG no RE".

[Kegereneku]

I would be quite interested to be required to use satellite/antenna to keep control of probes over long distance (it could then serve as a justification for a manned-first mission to the moon), however unlike allmhuran I see no fun with those being strictly-line-of-sight, especially since most player find it hard enough to send a probe to Duna without first needed to put 3 sat (as geostat orbit have a moon) to keep contact with whatever is on the ground.

If you really want a satellite constellation it can be asked by a Contract.

[Red Iron Crown]

Ships on rails warp don't cause performance issues.

They most certainly do. I play on an older machine, and a save with a dozen craft in orbit is noticeably slower than a save with no other craft in orbit.

The problem is not the same order of magnitude as high part count ships in physics simulation, but it is still a performance issue.

[Creature]

For anything long-term I think there should be a maximum level of housekeeping you need to do. I could see a research base work where for example you build the base that has a certain research module, bring in crew, they work there for a year and then you bring them back home and that's it. If you unlock a new research module later, you can then come back to the existing infrastructure and use it for the new stuff. Something like what Station Science mod does.

What I don't want to do is keep babysitting bases or relay networks. That's one reason why I usually don't play with RT2 because you can never get the orbits perfectly and while adjusting them every now and then is easy, it's just something that I'd rather not do because it's tedious. Same goes for life support. In theory it's nice and you can have greenhouses and whatnot and it's great if done correctly but what I don't want to do is keep hauling resupply missions to every manned base once a year. The first resupply mission is pretty fun, but the second is just the same thing over and after that it's grinding.

I think they have a good concept with the comms systems right now, but a barebones range requirement would be nice (I think there's an antennarange mod that does this). Just something simple like make one antenna for ground - orbit comms, once for planet SOI comms and a big dish for interplanetary comms. Relay would just check if for example the rover has antenna range to reach the orbiting satellite that in turn has the big dish to reach home. Or go simple and slap the dish on the rover but if you're planning multiple missions then the relay satellite would be useful. Most definitely no LoS requirements and no loss of control. These are way too frustrating to have in stock game.

[allmhuran]

They most certainly do. I play on an older machine, and a save with a dozen craft in orbit is noticeably slower than a save with no other craft in orbit.

The problem is not the same order of magnitude as high part count ships in physics simulation, but it is still a performance issue.

Well yes, technically every single thing in the game requires lines of code to be executed, and thus decreases performance.

But if we're talking about orders of magnitude of difference, is that technicality really worth worrying about? I mean, we're talking about spent stages here. Unless you regularly construct rockets with hundreds of stages, this kind of objection really feels like it's just for the sake of objecting. And I think Kashua already has that particular activity all sewn up.

[Red Iron Crown]

Well yes, technically every single thing in the game requires lines of code to be executed, and thus decreases performance.

But if we're talking about orders of magnitude of difference, is that technicality really worth worrying about? I mean, we're talking about spent stages here. Unless you regularly construct rockets with hundreds of stages, this kind of objection really feels like it's just for the sake of objecting. And I think Kashua already has that particular activity all sewn up.

We're not talking about spent stages, we're talking about adding or requiring satellite networks, among other things. A satellite network would have an impact on performance, at least for those of us on older hardware. I don't think this falls into the category of objecting for objection's sake.

[allmhuran]

I'd like to see someone demonstrate that their framerate noticeably decreases with, say, two dozen satellites on rails, because I simply don't believe it. It might take longer to load, since the save files are plain text (which has to be parsed). But once loaded, you're good.

Maybe, maybe if every single one of your satellites has multiple SOI encounters, and your computer still uses vacuum tubes, I'd believe it. But satellites don't generally make SOI transitions, and vacuum tubes aren't very common these days.

Edited June 14, 2014 by allmhuran

[Pulstar]

Yeah, I agree with you Creature on the housekeeping issue. If supplies for life support are ever a factor, I honestly think that you should have supply modules that carry enough supplies last up to a (earth) year, maybe two for a crew of 3. Basic pods should carry enough for flying and orbiting around Kerbin (kind of like they do already with monopropellant and electric charge), so a week or two worth of supplies so that a player doesn't need to worry about them until he goes beyond the Mun or Minmus (or forgets to land in time). You'd need supply modules to store food for either longterm orbital experiments or trips to Duna, Jool etc. these would of course increase dry mass, but also reflect the difficulty in sending manned missions into deep space.

The end of the tech-tree should allow you to create self-sustaining outposts with greenhouses/hydroponics gardens and 100% efficient (I know this is fantasy but so are non-decaying eternal RTGs) water recycling, precisely to avoid the issue of micromanaging logistics which would turn the game into a tedious grind of resupply missions.

As for relays I believe that LOS should be optional, but effective antenna range and data loss should be calculated based on actual distance between the celestial bodies.

[Red Iron Crown]

I'd like to see someone demonstrate that their framerate noticeably decreases with, say, two dozen satellites on rails, because I simply don't believe it. It might take longer to load, since the save files are plain text (which has to be parsed). But once loaded, you're good.

Maybe, maybe if every single one of your satellites has multiple SOI encounters, and your computer still uses vacuum tubes, I'd believe it. But satellites don't generally make SOI transitions, and vacuum tubes aren't very common these days.

It's only noticeable for me on high time warp.

It may be a non-issue for most as you say, my older PC is probably an outlier performance wise (not vacuum tubes, though ).

[allmhuran]

Rather than just assert our assumptions at each other I thought I'd better do some actual science, so here's a quick video with the FPS counter showing in the top right ( mod at http://www.curse.com/ksp-mods/kerbal/220663-showfps ).

There was minor slowdown when the 20 probes are released and still in physics range (as you'd expect). Zero slowdown once probes go on rails. Zero slowdown at maximum rails warp.

http://youtu.be/40NzjT45Guo

[Red Iron Crown]

Allmhuran, I'm not at my KSP computer right now, but I should be able to test tomorrow. What are your system's specs?

[allmhuran]

Windows 7 64, i7-4770, gtx-670.

I could keep launching probes until I have enough in rails orbit to see a framerate drop, but I think it would end up being hundreds, maybe even thousands. I've had several dozen things in orbit before without any issue.

Edited June 14, 2014 by allmhuran

[rkman]

I feel this games needs some form of ai for the kerbals, so they can act independently in and out of your focus.

Squad has mentioned that a few times in the past. Kebal's piloting performance would depend on their character and experience. The big problem to realize that is to change ksp so that that multiple craft all over the solar system can be off-rails simultaneously. I'm not sure that would be playable without a major improvements in ksp's performance.

[Guest]

I think we can expect map view to get a few more updates before all is said and done, so I'd be careful not to dismiss possible gameplay features based on to the current limitations or cluttered nature of map view.

It's not so much clutter in map view as it is useless junk craft that are up there for the sole purpose of letting another craft fly. Keep RT2 out of the game, I don't want to bother with managing satellite constellations so I can launch a probe to Jool. We didn't have to do that with Voyager and I see no good reason that it be needed in KSP.

Allmhuran, I'm not at my KSP computer right now, but I should be able to test tomorrow. What are your system's specs?

What mods are installed is also important, especially if you're using one of the newer life support mods or KSPI.

[Red Iron Crown]

What mods are installed is also important, especially if you're using one of the newer life support mods or KSPI.

The only CPU intensive mods I use are the dV calculators in MJ and KER, so I think I'm probably fine there.