Add Stock Nav Lights (specs included + real life spacecraft example)

[Sky_walker]

Could we, please, get a navigation lights as a stock part in a game?

Preferably with tweakables:

- Turn on/off

- Strobe (on/off - by default: on, frequency cannot exceed 30 per minute, duration of dark must be longer than a duration of light (dark being just a low-intensity glow, nav light doesn't turn off completely in a strobe mode))

- R

- G

- B

(by default set to white)

For optimization reasons - at a distance lights should appear as a bright star-shaped sprite that's becoming visible from 5000 meters (according to the rules) in a proper color and a blink frequency (at a very far distance "dark" phase can appear as a light turned off). Up close it's just a small glow spire on a physical 3D model and an actual point light, much like one from an Illuminator Mk2, only on a much wider angle (180 degrees? It needs to be at least 90) and in a strobe mode: alternating power (say: when in "dark" phase it should be 1/3 of Illuminator Mk2 brightness and range, in "light" phase it should be 1.5 of Illuminator Mk2 - really, really bright glow on anything that's up close).

Current real-world example:

ORBITEC Cygnus resupply spacecraft is using set of 5 navigation lights - 2 white, 1 red, 1 green, 1 yellow (source)

Edited June 19, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Kasuha]

Sounds like a good idea for a mod (if it is not in some mod already) but I doubt we will have it in stock game before it is considered feature complete. Unless something is added that would look incredibly cool with them.

As a stock workaround you can use already existing lights tweaked for required color, pointed at surface of the ship itself. You don't get the strobe effect, though.

[Justin Kerbice]

People need really to search a bit better before asking for new features (which actually already exist) => aviation lights

By the way, why asking for a stock features which will be updated (in case of issues) once or twice a year, at best, a probably never improved, whereas a mod could be updated/improved almost each months, or more often, and for which authors are more likely to listen to users and be more active ?

[Sky_walker]

@Kasuha - There is a similar mod already. I'm asking for a stock part. It's relatively quick to do and at the same time will add immersion into the game and, yes, they will make stuff look cool . They're basically a dream-parts for anyone building SSTO planes or atmospheric planes. Not to mention how much of an aid would they be in a docking process - which is my personal reason for the request: it'll add new dimension to the design process where you can actually make your life easier by setting up a proper and consistent navigation lights.

Existing lights are not a work around. They don't have any "glow" nor blink. They're just point light sources that are visible only if they cast light on a surface - they are not visible or suitable as a nav lights (when looking towards the light source you cannot tell what color they're in, not to mention that they're pretty much invisible from a distance).

By the way, why asking for a stock features which will be updated (in case of issues) once or twice a year, at best, a probably never improved, whereas a mod could be updated/improved almost each months, or more often, and for which authors are more likely to listen to users and be more active ?

Stock > Mod. Some people play only a stock version of a game. Some things are so essential that they should be in a stock game - this certainly qualifies (if you want an example of mod that was picked by dev team to be implemented into the stock game - think about multiplayer. It's enormous project that begun as a mod (and IMHO should stay as a mod with devs focusing on a core of the game not MP), and now is being implemented into the game). As for the other point: why update it? Just make the thing right at the beginning and be over with it. It's such a basic thing that it won't require maintenance pretty much just like the current illuminators (which got only one update: they added an option to change light colors). I tried to give as precise description of needed features as possible (to save devs time researching values) and make it as future-proof as I could to ensure it doesn't add any long-term work load for the devs.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Sky_walker
added reply to Justin Kerbice

[the_bT]

The stock vs mod argument is stupid. I could understand it for engines and the like which need balancing against each other but for lights that are more or less passive it doesn't make sense.

That being said, I agree better aviation lights are needed. Currently as far as I know you have these choices:

- The aviation light mod posted above. It kinda works but it lacks the far distance sprite feature which would be extremely useful and immersive. It also clutters your part list, at least it did when I tried it. But that was before changing colors on lights was possible and it added one part for every light color...

- B9 has some small omni lights (point light source) and at least on one you can change the color. They always glow white though and that sucks.

- Stock lights, same problems as B9.

- This is relatively new and not made for the task, but it kinda works: The glowstrips mod. The strip form only works for really large crafts though (if your craft has wingtips that make 1m glowing strips look like a navlight ) and it too lacks far distance sprites. But you can change the color it glows in and last version it can blink too. The timing is off but for the ability to change the color it glows in it deserves mention.

So you see, if you want the features named in the op you are out of luck.

If that gets made in stock or as mod I could not care less. As long as it gets made at all and I get to use it afterwards...

I'm not even sure if the point light feature is needed. The far distance sprite idea is the important part, lighting up the craft a tiny amount is eye candy, nothing more.

[Sky_walker]

So you see, if you want the features named in the op you are out of luck.

If that gets made in stock or as mod I could not care less. As long as it gets made at all and I get to use it afterwards...

Again - basic, essential features should be included in a game, not be a mods. Especially if they're cheap on a work hours. Nav lights add a whole lot to the game - from navigation, through docking procedures, down to pure eye-candy. All of this in one relatively simple item. IMHO it's a great deal - that's why I proposed it.

Things like engines and everything that includes more balancing is automatically much more difficult and time taking, possibly involving few people to implement (someone who gets a hold of game balance, then designer (engines tend to be much more complex and involve more time than a small objects), 3D modeller, animator to rig and animate the 3D model, and someone to implement it in the game with proper particle effects - yea, sure, one person will do a few things in one go, never the less: you get the picture.) - blinking light is by far simpler and quicker to implement.

I'm not even sure if the point light feature is needed. The far distance sprite idea is the important part, lighting up the craft a tiny amount is eye candy, nothing more.

As said: If you do something - do it right. And it's not like adding a point light takes days to do but it certainly adds to the realism.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Tw1]

I'm not sure I'd call this essential. I've never felt the need to have them.

Perhaps this could be achieved via adding tweakable strobing to the existing lights? Then they can be adjusted both for cool disco party things, and to comply with Earth standards.

I agree that the stock lights always glowing while isn't good- it's confusing sometimes.

[Sky_walker]

Again: Existing lights are useless for what we're trying to achieve here. Look up front at the Illuminator that's casting red light - what color is it? Yellow. Now go far away from the illuminator - you see it glowing like a nav light? No.

[Kasuha]

@Kasuha - There is a similar mod already. I'm asking for a stock part. It's relatively quick to do and at the same time will add immersion into the game and, yes, they will make stuff look cool .

To quote from Harvester's 0.24 update blog:

Working with minimal content during development isn't a bad thing for developers. I can't count how many times I've dreaded the prospect of having to go through all the 170+ parts and their configs, to make some tweak or another. Having less parts in the game would have certainly made life easier for us on many a situation... It would also have made for a much less interesting game. This, as with so many other things, is something we have to maintain in balance.

I think that we as players should respect that. I am pretty sure we are going to get our dream parts and I will love them ... when the game is finished.

[LethalDose]

Huh, I thought navigation lights weren't used on spacecraft because there was no universally accepted "up", or something.

And yes, I realize that sounds kind of dopey, but I swear I read that somewhere.

Regardless, I think it's a good idea for KSP. Stock navigation lights would be useful for station approaches, especially when the the stations are in the shadow of their primary. I also think its a pretty low priority, so it can wait until the game is "scope complete", whatever that means.

Addendum:

Thinking back on this, it kind of makes sense. With just red and green lights, you couldn't know if a vessel was heading towards you or away from you. If you saw another vessel ahead of you (ahead = in the direction of your travel) with it's portside on your starboard and vice versa, you couldn't separate the following situations:

• The observed vessel has the same upward orientation as the observer and is facing the observer
  
• The observed vessel has an inverted orientation and is facing away from the observer
  
• Is facing a direction oblique to the observer's line of travel
  

A third light on the dorsum of the vessel (indicating it's "upward" orientation) would solve the problem, but it wouldn't matter because in space, a vessels heading is unrelated to it's course. In vacuum, a vessel is free to change it's heading freely without changing it's direction of travel, unlike aircraft and waterborne vessels that move through a fluid and therefore can only travel [at any speed worth noting] in the direction of their heading.

A very quick web hunt also yielded the following fun info:

• The ISS doesn't have navigation lighting
  
• The Shuttle orbiter didn't have navigation lighting
  
• Orbitech developed the first LED nav lighting system for spacecraft in 2011. It looks like it's the only navigation lighting for spacecraft.
  
• Cygnus is the only space vehicle that I can find that references the use of navigation lighting (used the Orbitech system).
  

So, yeah, still sounds useful for aircraft (in multiplayer), stations, and large ships, but doesn't seem to be much need on most spacecraft.

Edited June 19, 2014 by LethalDose

[RidingTheFlow]

I agree with OP. Having just single simple "point light" part with tweakable color won't hurt memory footprint, and its something that could be made in a day or two.

[kalor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_light#Spacecraft_navigation_lights - Spacecraft nav lights.

Now that that is out of the way, here's my take on the idea. Currently, in a single player form, the nav/aviation lights serve a minimal couple of purposes.

1. Eye candy. Does this need explaining?

2. Can be useful when making docking manuevers, in case the target craft has drifted out of alignment, PARTICULARLY on longer-duration and range missions, where every bit of RCS fuel and LFO are accounted for.

Ok, so those two purposes, don't justify the need to get Squad to add in nav lights. There is a mod that works, and fills the role (though with some limitations, as noted in previous posts.)

Looking at the features and plans, however, we all can see that Multiplayer KSP (WOOT!) is a planned feature. Now, in multiplayer, this sort of system would be much more important. Not all spacecraft belong to the player, and, as of yet, we don't know how they will interact. Regardless of how they will interact, however, if two player's spacecraft will be sharing the same area, knowing orientation, direction of travel, etc, will be vital. Imagine the rage of two players that put up multi-hundred ton payloads, only to have them collide in orbit, because they couldn't tell which direction the other player was travelling. Very, very frustrating.

Which, of course, is where navigation lights (and standards, though who knows if players will adhere to them...) comes in.

My overall stance is that, currently, mods should fill the role of the nav/aviation lights, and when multiplayer is becoming a reality, THEN Squad should look into making them a stock part, and integrating them into the game.

[Sky_walker]

Shameless bump.

ATV got nav lights too.

Nasa TV is streaming docking right now: http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html you can quite clearly see them blinking on approach.

Here's an image from ESA:

Edited October 26, 2014 by Sky_walker
inserted the image into the post

[Sky_walker]

And another spacecraft with nav lights, Dragon departing from the ISS, photographed over Sidney:

[Wanderfound]

Supported. Keeping track of spaceplane orientation on the dark side of planets is a PITA, and it doesn't need to be. Stock lights are not adequate; apart from the colour and distance visibility issues, the're just too big. Sticking foot-wide spotlights on your wingtips is not aerodynamically friendly.

The Aviation Lights mod does the job, but I stopped using it for a few reasons:

* If I want to share craft files, they need to be stripped down to stock. Aviation lights are small and inconspicuous; it's easy to miss one. This is extremely irritating to all involved when it occurs.

* Their DRE temp settings are way too low. Getting through reentry with your lights intact is pretty much impossible unless you use an extremely prolonged hyperconservative descent profile. Editing part files to fix this every time I update my mods is an absolute nuisance.

Harvester's justification for why such things aren't already in the game is valid, but we're inches away from scope completion now. Time to fill in the blanks.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Wanderfound

[reflintorm]

Red is the standard color to identify the rear of a vehicle, and white is the standard color to identify the front.The reflective surfaces of a cube-corner reflector do not have a mirror coating.

[Damien_The_Unbeliever]

Red is the standard color to identify the rear of a vehicle, and white is the standard color to identify the front.The reflective surfaces of a cube-corner reflector do not have a mirror coating.

Define "Vehicle". For boats/ships, Red/Green indicate the front (and also indicate left and right) and White indicates the rear (with additional masthead lights giving further information about the type of vessel). (Also, not sure it was worth resurrecting this old thread just for this)

Edited March 24, 2015 by Damien_The_Unbeliever

[klgraham1013]

People need really to search a bit better before asking for new features (which actually already exist)

People really need to read the thread title a bit better before responding. This is about adding aviation lights to stock. "There's a mod for that" is not an answer for parts or utilities which should be stock. Such as Kerbal Engineer. This discussion should be whether or not you agree if aviation lights are something that should be added to the stock game.

[Wjolcz]

Every sci-fi looking space station needs dem blinking lights!

[DSKY]

A very quick web hunt also yielded the following fun info:

• The ISS doesn't have navigation lighting
  
• The Shuttle orbiter didn't have navigation lighting
  
• Orbitech developed the first LED nav lighting system for spacecraft in 2011. It looks like it's the only navigation lighting for spacecraft.
  
• Cygnus is the only space vehicle that I can find that references the use of navigation lighting (used the Orbitech system).
  

So, yeah, still sounds useful for aircraft (in multiplayer), stations, and large ships, but doesn't seem to be much need on most spacecraft.

They're handy for identifying the orientation of a vehicle you're docking with:

[Sky_walker]

Nice find DSKY, thanks for sharing!